The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[marks]

Scripture?

Have you read those books? It's a prominent part.

I'll come back later . . . Gotta run!

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Have you read those books? It's a prominent part.

I'll come back later . . . Gotta run!

Much love!

Speaking of "cop out"...

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[ewq1938]

Some Jews. Not some unbelievers.

Much love!

Some Jews? How many Jews have died rejecting Jesus as Messiah since the Messiah came? Wouldn't that be most?

 

[Timtofly]

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Faith and obedience.

Use 'em or lose 'em.

Can't elude 'em.

Are you implying the first two males God talked to, did not obey?

 

[Timtofly]

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual...

Yet you make it physical. So which law is spiritual?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, comprised of diverse ethnicities from its birth and throughout its history.

No. Unless you can show from Scripture these other males contemporary with Abraham.

 

[covenantee]

No. Unless you can show from Scripture these other males contemporary with Abraham.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

 

[covenantee]

Yet you make it physical. So which law is spiritual?

Provide a link to the post in which I make it physical.

 

[covenantee]

Are you implying the first two males God talked to, did not obey?

Scripture is talking about Abraham.

You're talking about two males.

Quote the Scripture in which Abraham is two males.

 

[David in NJ]

Did you know they that both became very angry over the Israelites marrying those who were not? And that they required those marraiges to be disolved? I was just wondering if that to you seemed racist.

Much love!

This did not have to do with race but it did have to do with the satanic practices from which these women came from.

God said that if they married foreign women(pagan/satanic religions) that these women would lead their husbands and the nation of Israel to worship other gods.

SAME holds True for Believers in Christ today = "do not be unequally yoked"

 

[marks]

Speaking of "cop out"...

Whether you think me lying . . . I wasn't.

So there ya' go! We don't need to continue this any further.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Let's move from OT prophecy to NT prophecy.

:) Okay...

I'm going to post a passage, I feel fairly certain that you will reject it's plain saying, please let me know if I'm right.

Revelation 7:1-8 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Do you believe this passage is accurate in the simplicity in which it speaks?

Yes, absolutely. But it's not "simple" ~ or wooden ~ as you would have it. Let me ask you, Marks, regarding Revelation 7, do you see John speaking of two different groups of people there (verses 1-8, as opposed to verses 9-17)? Because... no. :) To expound a bit:

It is the same group: The balanced numbering suggests that 12 times 1000 is a symbolic number for the fullness of the people of God in each tribe, together totalling 144,000. The “servants of our God” in Revelation 7:3 must include Gentile saints as well. The equal status of Gentiles and Jews in the seven churches (Ephesians 2:11-22), and the promises associated only with the 144,000 (Revelation 9:4; Revelation 14:1-5) confirm it. So, Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. They are a great multitude… from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3; Genesis 17:5).

Again, I would say "plain reading of the text" every bit as much as you do; that's not the point of contention at all. The disagreement, Marks, quite obviously, is not whether the text is plain or not but rather regarding just what that plain reading is.

Except I'm not in fact.

You are. No need to keep going back and forth on this point, but suit yourself.

If anything, you are asserting that the current dispensation has obviated or voided or altered the terms of the previous dispensation in at least this particular regard.

See, Marks, this is proof positive that you are making dispensational arguments, because you're here talking about a "current dispensation" and "previous dispensations." Oh, but you're not making dispensational arguments, are you? Wow. LOL! There are no "dispensations," Mark. God is the same God all the time. He does not change.

So I'm making an argument the these OT prophecies are reliable without regard to what our present dispensation is...

Yeah, so anything about "dispensations" aside, to insinuate in any way that I'm arguing against the reliability of any OT prophecy is absolutely ridiculous and false. The only difference, really, is that I don't see them in the limited way you insist on seeing them in.

your argument, @covenantee, is that the present dispensation renders them unreliable in what they say on their face.

Yeah so no, absolutely not, and neither is mine.

So it seems the opposite to me.

Well, that's how you want to paint it... :)

Is this what you believe will happen? Or no?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Will this happen? Will God bring this very thing to pass? I say, Yes, Absolutely!

Absolutely. And we're back yet again to who you think Israel is... :) I say again, Marks, that, whether you or I are ethnically Jewish or not, if we're in Christ, we are both of God's Israel and thus true Jews, and included in the fullness of the people of God... somewhere within that symbolic 144,000. :)

Rather than making vague and mildly disparaging claims...

About you making dispensational arguments? Again, you're talking about past and present dispensations, and you're saying I'm making "vague and mildly disparaging claims"... LOL!

Are you familiar with the Chicago Statement of Hermenuetics? I think that's pretty good.

Topically, yes. Sure.

What makes my argument as I'm describing it, is that I'm pointing to the normal use of the language in the day it was used. And I'm affirming my belief in it's veracity. I read it, and I believe what I read, the very things that are said.

Yep, me, too... :)

It's not code, it's communication.

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

He did not say different things to them than He has said to us, Marks.

Acts 1:6 KJV
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The disciples understood.

Agreed. We can take a look at and see what Paul and Peter said about Israel and who are true Jews. Why will you not do that, Marks? With God, there is no ethnicity, but only those whom He has or will call and who are thus in Christ... or not. And this was always and will always be true.

Is it too hard for us?

For some, for various reasons, it seems so... :)

@PinSeeker

You may need to track this back a bit, but this is where covenantee is saying that he does not believe the prophecies will be fulfilled as written.

Much love!

Actually, Mark, in that part of the conversation, this is how it went:

@covenantee: "When the Holy Spirit through Paul said that all the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ, do you think that created a contradiction with various OT prophecies?"​

​

@marks: "No, do you? Or do you think the prophecies will be fulfilled?"​

​

@covenantee: "Nor do I. There is no contradiction for me with OT prophecy being fulfilled spiritually in Christ."​

So maybe you lost track on this a bit, but he asked a leading question, and you answered no, and he agreed. Even Christ Himself said that the whole Old Testament ~ Moses and the prophets ~ was about Him (John 5:46), and Luke echos this in relating Christ's conversation with the two men on the road to Emmaus after His resurrection (Luke 24:27). Maybe one day you'll walk that road with Him...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Ezra 9:2-3 KJV
2) For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
3) And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.

From the Hebrew:

2233 [e]
ze·ra‘
זֶ֣רַע
seed
N‑msc

"5 seed as marked by moral quality = persons (or community) of such a quality; transition to this through such cases as those of ׳בְּרוּכֵי י ׳ז Isaiah 65:23 ("" צֶאֱצָאִים), compare Isaiah 61:9; Isaiah 65:9; הַקֹּדֶשׁ ׳ז Ezra 9:2"

A moral issue -- idolatrization and corruption of those who had been faithful and obedient, which would have included both Jews and Gentiles from among Israel.

Confirmed by their identification as "holy".

Nothing to do with race.

 

[Timtofly]

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

And you have the documents to prove that happened?

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture is talking about Abraham.

You're talking about two males.

Quote the Scripture in which Abraham is two males.

After you document those males who have corrupted Abraham's seed.

 

[covenantee]

And you have the documents to prove that happened?

And you have the Scripture to prove that it didn't?

 

[covenantee]

After you document those males who have corrupted Abraham's seed.

You're the one who brought them up. Document your own imaginations.

 

[Timtofly]

And you have the Scripture to prove that it didn't?

Yes, Scripture states it was only in the seed of Isaac and Jacob. Not in Ishmael nor Esau.

Now provide evidence that any male of a different ethnicity was grafted into the natural tree producing a second ethnicity in a Covenantal relationship with God that you claim diversified the ethnicity of Jacob.

You're the one who brought them up. Document your own imaginations.

You are the one who keeps implying the ethnicity of Jacob no longer exists. That is your assertion to prove, not mine.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

You pointed out that God allowed it to happen. Now show where it literally happened. The argument is not that it cannot happen. Show where you claim it has happened.

 

[covenantee]

Now provide evidence that any male of a different ethnicity was grafted into the natural tree producing a second ethnicity in a Covenantal relationship with God that you claim diversified the ethnicity of Jacob.

Link to the post in which I claim that "any male of a different ethnicity was grafted into the natural tree producing a second ethnicity in a Covenantal relationship with God that you claim diversified the ethnicity of Jacob."

You are the one who keeps implying the ethnicity of Jacob no longer exists.

Link to the post in which I "keep implying the ethnicity of Jacob no longer exists."

You pointed out that God allowed it to happen.

Link to the post in which I "point out that God allowed it to happen".

 

[PinSeeker]

Israel was always ethnic.

Israel, Timtofly, was what God renamed Jacob, in Genesis 32. The "man" whom Jacob wrestled with "until the breaking of day" was God, and God, finally, in Genesis 32:28, said to Jacob, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."

Backing up a bit, this lineage goes from Abraham to Isaac (son of Abraham) to Jacob (son of Isaac). None ~ none ~ was Jewish. Abraham was called by God from Ur, which was at that time the land of the Chaldeans but now is the southeast of present-day Iraq. Obviously, if Abraham was not Jewish, his son and grandson were not, either. So God's Israel, Timtofly, even from it's inception, was never ethnic. It was always spiritual, and it was given a land (the Promised Land, on the eastern end of the Mediterranean, which foreshadowed the greater Promised Land, the whole earth).

Now, yes, in Old Testament times, the nation of Israel over time became predominantly ethnic, because it had been given this land to dwell in, but again, even from its inception, Israel was never meant by God to be merely ethnic. And even in these Old Testament times, there were some foreigners brought into the commonwealth of Israel, foreshadowing the Gentiles to come and, yes, be "grafted in."

Some posters keep pointing out that the NT completely wiped out the natural tree...

Okay, well, yeah, that's quite erroneous. :)

Matthew 25 is the restoration of ethnic Israel.

Not ethnic... :) Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6). But the restoration of Israel... the separation of the tares from the wheat (Matthew 13:40-42), the evil from the righteous (Matthew 13:49) for sure. Do you mean, Timtofly, specifically, Matthew 25:34-40? Because yes, those on Jesus's right are the ones who stand in the final Judgment, the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), God's Israel, which includes all those called by God, both Jew and Gentile (Romans 9:23-24) and thus all Israel (Romans 11:25-26) and thus true Jews, those who are Jews not outwardly but inwardly, whose circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, whose praise is not from man but from God (Romans 2:28-29), His elect (Romans 9) and are resurrected to eternal life rather than to eternal judgment (John 5:28-29).

Yet many hijack those verses as some spiritual juxtaposition between the general saved and unsaved.

No hijacking... :)

Grace and peace to you.