The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[marks]

Their physical fulfillments no longer appear in the New Covenant/Will/Testament, because they have been replaced therein by their spiritual fulfillments in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Right, so those prophecies to return Israel to their land will NOT be fulfilled in your view. God said He would do it, but He in fact will not. Correct?

Someone was just saying to me the other day that I wasn't right when I said some think this way. If I'm remembering correctly.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Well, the ones who are alive today. But there are many saints (believers) who "have gone before," in the words of that great hymn, For All the Saints." Believers who were of God's Israel even long before Jesus was born 2000-plus years ago. I think you agree, but this is what it feels like Marks is reacting so negatively toward; he think's you're excluding them. I think. :) But again, I think you agree with what I'm saying here, it just looks a little different in what you are saying here. Right?

Yes, totally agree. The problem with Marks is that he believes that God's choice was and is based on physical DNA, while I have continuously reemphasized that it was and is based on spiritual DNA, i.e. faith and obedience.

Which means that I am excluding the unfaithful and disobedient, irrespective of their physical DNA.

Whom God also excluded, as seen from many thousands of corpses of unfaithful disobedient Israelites.

 

[marks]

Those of Israel who rejected Christ during His ministry on earth, and rejected the Gospel for 3 1/2 years after His ascension during its proclamation to Israel; were blinded.

At the end of the 3 1/2 year period of the proclamation of the Gospel to Israel, the Gospel was opened to all, i.e. the fulness of, the Gentiles.

At which time, those of Israel who had been blinded were "unblinded", permitting them to hear and understand the Gospel, and to choose to receive Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16

Interesting, but that's not the meaning of "in part". Where do you come to 3.5 years?

The passage says, "until the fulness of the gentiles come in". You left off that part, and didn't address it. Why?

Romans 11:25 KJV
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This phrase has a particular meaning that is not "the Gospel is opened to the gentiles".



Until which the filling of the nations may be entering.

When the full complement is come in.

Part of Israel is blinded, until the full number of gentiles are come in.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel and the gentiles, Israel and the gentiles, Paul continues on and on regarding Israel and the gentiles. Part of Israel is blinded until the full number of Gentiles is in. Then all Israel will be saved, just like He promised.

Israel and the gentiles, God maintains this distinction, clearly, plainly, NT, OT, Israel and the Gentiles. And when Jesus comes in power and glory, He will gather Israel to their land, and gather the nations to be judged, exactly as prophesied in the OT, and exactly as prophesied in the NT.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Right, so those prophecies to return Israel to their land will NOT be fulfilled in your view

Correct, they will not be fulfilled physically, but that's not my view. Those prophecies do not appear in the NT, and God tells us via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that they are fulfilled in Christ.

God said He would do it, but He in fact will not.

God said that He would do better than that in Christ, and He has. Do you think that He is a liar because He replaced old obsolete promises with New Better Promises?

 

[covenantee]

Interesting, but that's not the meaning of "in part". Where do you come to 3.5 years?

The passage says, "until the fulness of the gentiles come in". You left off that part, and didn't address it. Why?

Romans 11:25 KJV
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This phrase has a particular meaning that is not "the Gospel is opened to the gentiles".

View attachment 34805

Until which the filling of the nations may be entering.

When the full complement is come in.

Part of Israel is blinded, until the full number of gentiles are come in.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel and the gentiles, Israel and the gentiles, Paul continues on and on regarding Israel and the gentiles. Part of Israel is blinded until the full number of Gentiles is in. Then all Israel will be saved, just like He promised.

Israel and the gentiles, God maintains this distinction, clearly, plainly, NT, OT, Israel and the Gentiles. And when Jesus comes in power and glory, He will gather Israel to their land, and gather the nations to be judged, exactly as prophesied in the OT, and exactly as prophesied in the NT.

Much love!

Before delving into this, we need to ensure the understanding of the identity of "all Israel".

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[covenantee]

That's an easy one! Those born from his loins. The Israelites. Have you surveyed through the Bible noting the context of each place the man or the nation are called Israel, and when they are called Jacob? It's a very interesting study! I recommend it if you haven't. It takes some time, because there are many verses to look at, but very interesting!

Much love!

You are aware that, from its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham (i.e. Jews and Gentiles, to use later nomenclature)?

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

 

[marks]

Before delving into this, we need to ensure the understanding of the identity of "all Israel".

Two Israels.

Israel, and the gentiles. Listen to Paul. The Chosen, and the Nations. Listen to Jesus. An innumerable multitude in heaven, of all nations, as the seed of the woman is persecuted on earth. Listen to John.

You are going to try to tell me that the national descendants of Jacob are not Israel, when all over the Bible they are. They are not spiritually saved because they are the children of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, but the nation is preserved in the history of man for the father's sake.

God promised an ethnic people group that He would preserve them as a people, that He would at the end restore and regather them. God will keep that promise.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

In the letter to the Hebrews . . . How does this make the Israelites NOT the Israelites?

LOL! Is this what you understand me to be saying, Marks? Really? Goodness gracious. No...

There are two groups of people whom God chose...

Nope. If you're stuck in ethnicities, which you seem to be, then you have to use them all and say there are a multitude of groups of people whom God chose. :) But that's kinda silly. God has one people, which ultimately includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. They are all in Christ.

The difference between us is that I don't think the NT prevents in the least God fulfilling His Word to Israel.

That's the point, Marks. There is no difference between you and me in that respect. Yes, He will fulfill His Word to Israel, but the problem is your understanding of Israel... who Israel is inclusive of now. And thus your idea of God's promises is far too small, missing the full scope of them.

There is no more sacrifice for sin, and there is no more Levitical priesthood.

Right, after the order of Melchizadek now, right...

But there is a promised land, and a promise to Isreal.

Absolutely there is. But it's not just a tiny tract of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea... :)

That's an easy one!

Clearly not an easy one for you...

Have you surveyed through the Bible noting the context of each place the man or the nation are called Israel, and when they are called Jacob? It's a very interesting study! I recommend it if you haven't. It takes some time, because there are many verses to look at, but very interesting!

:) I know God's Word very well, yes.

God chose 2 groups of people, in 2 very different kinds of choosing.

Nope. Our God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. All we in Christ are chosen before the foundation of the world. Surely you have read Ephesians 1...

One was a people-group named after the name God gave their patriarch, Israel... The other is the Body of Christ, the ekklesia.

They are one and the same. There is no Jew or Gentile, but only those in Christ Jesus.

These are from all nations, and are a spiritually united group, as opposed to Israel, an ethnic group.

God's Israel is not ethnic, and is inclusive of all in Christ, across all time, but yes, from all nations and spiritually united in Christ.

When Jesus comes, the remainder of Israel at that time will be rescued from persecution, and given a new heart, that they will walk in all the statutes and precepts.

Ah, Ezekiel 11:17-20 ~ "Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My rules and obey them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God."

...and Ezekiel 36:24-28 ~ "I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

Are you Jewish, Marks? Or do you exclude yourself? Because it's one or the other. These passages and promises are just as true for us today, regardless of ethnicity, as they were then.

One does not obviate the other. All will be fulfilled. We need not disbelieve any.

Agreed. :) You keep portraying me as disagreeing on this. That's... perplexing... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

You are aware that, from its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham (i.e. Jews and Gentiles, to use later nomenclature)?

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Is this the "dilution" argument? That who can keep track any longer, so how will God know even who these people are?

BTW . . . Not all the children of Abraham are Israel, but only those of the child of promise. And not all of those either, but only those of the child of election. And not all of those also, but only those who believe.

And this is not to say that all who believe are Israel. Believing Israel is still Israel.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

God promised an ethnic people group that He would preserve them as a people

He did no such thing. Tens of thousands of corpses of unfaithful disobedient Israelites testify to that.

God is not a racist, notwithstanding the incessant efforts to contort Him into one.

 

[marks]

LOL! Is this what you understand me to be saying, Marks? Really? Goodness gracious. No...

Then what were you saying?

Neither Covenantee nor I disagree with what you say, here, Marks. The problem is your understanding ~ or misunderstanding ~ regarding who the children of Jacob are... who are included as children of Jacob. Yet again, in the words of the author of Hebrews, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

You emphasized, "our fathers", and "spoken to us". What were you expressing here? The writer to the Hebrews speaks of "our fathers", are you thinking this was someone besides their patriarchs? Progenitors?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He did no such thing. Tens of thousands of corpses of unfaithful disobedient Israelites testify to that.

He did not promise to preserve specific individuals for the most part. He promised, and prophesied, the preservation of the nation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God is not a racist, notwithstanding the incessant efforts to contort Him into one.

Well, if you are contorting God into a racist, stop. Myself, I'm quoting to you Scripture, and I'm telling you I believe what God says.

When you make comments like this, I kinda figure you are running out of patience, or arguments, or something.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Is this the "dilution" argument? That who can keep track any longer, so how will God know even who these people are?

He has always known who His faithful and obedient are.

They aren't diluted.

 

[PinSeeker]

Israel, and the gentiles.

The Gentiles are grafted in, Marks. And the unbelieving Jews who come to believe will be regrafted in.

Listen to Paul.

That's... exactly what we're trying to get you to do... :)

You are going to try to tell me that the national descendants of Jacob are not Israel, when all over the Bible they are.

Well, Paul, in Romans 9:6, does say, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." Hard to argue with that, but do what you will...

God promised an ethnic people group that He would preserve them as a people, that He would at the end restore and regather them. God will keep that promise.

Even in those days, Marks, there were foreigners included in the commonwealth of Israel and therefore Israelites, my friend. Are they now unincluded? No, absolutely not. And this was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles to come. But yes, God will keep all His promises.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Well, if you are contorting God into a racist, stop. Myself, I'm quoting to you Scripture, and I'm telling you I believe what God says.

When you make comments like this, I kinda figure you are running out of patience, or arguments, or something.

Much love!

Faith and obedience.

The foundations of all other arguments.

 

[PinSeeker]

You emphasized, "our fathers", and "spoken to us". What were you expressing here?

LOL!!!!!

The writer to the Hebrews speaks of "our fathers", are you thinking this was someone besides their patriarchs? Progenitors?

LOL!!!!

Oh, my.

Grace and peace to you, Marks.

 

[marks]

Well, Paul, in Romans 9:6, does say, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." Hard to argue with that, but do what you will...

Yes that's right. But those who did not descend from Israel also are not Israel. It's kind of a tautology.

What is the tree? Israel? Is Israel grafted into Israel? Or is the natural tree Abraham? Of whom we are called his spiritual children. In fact this is our spiritual designation connecting us to them in faith. Children of faithful Abraham. There it is!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Faith and obedience.

The foundations of all other arguments.

Good, stick with that.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

He did not promise to preserve specific individuals for the most part. He promised, and prophesied, the preservation of the nation.

Much love!

The only nation that He has ever and will ever preserve is His Holy Nation of the faithful and obedient. Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:9.

No others.