The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[marks]

You don't.

In fact, I do!

Ezekiel 36:22-38 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Oh, there are so many more, how many would you like to see? I believe these passages. Do you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

IF THE JEWS Do not BELEIVE HE IS THE CHRIST , i tell us all they too will perish as will the gentile who denies HIM as the Christ .

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is what I'm speaking of.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If your uncle told you that he had bequeathed you $10,000 in his will, and later told you that he had updated his will and increased the bequest to $20,000, would you accuse your uncle of breaking his word because he changed his original bequest?

That absurdity describes precisely what you're doing as a result of God updating His Will.

Previously you've said "there is no rewrite of the promises and covenant's He made, with the exception of what He in fact changed. The Priesthood, primarily. The New Covenent." That is false. The New Covenant/Will/Testament is a complete replacement.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The new and better promises found in the better New Covenant/Will/Testament have completely replaced the old promises of the old covenant. We see that any old covenant promises relating, e.g. to the old covenant land occupied by old covenant Israel, are completely absent from the New Covenant/Will/Testament, and are thus null and void. That is an immutable characteristic of wills and testaments.

We are told unambiguously what has happened to the old covenant and its promises. It is impossible to exhume them because they are vanished away.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I'm curious . . . are there any of the OT prophecies that you believe will yet be fulfilled? How much of the Bible do you believe to still be true? Just the NT? I'm not trying to be snide. There is a reason I'm asking this.

Because the answer to this question leads to understanding.

God knew everything He was going to do, and everything man was going to do, when He wrote the Bible. He knew how you would interpret it, and how I would interpret it, and this conversation we are having right now.

He is here with me, here with you, watching as the words form in our minds exactly as He knew they would.

He knew that His chosen people would reject His annointed savior, He knew all of it. And He gave us this book, that all works together, and if you read it the way it's supposed to be read, there is nothing that contradicts, nothing that negates anything else, only except as stated.

Like the sacrifice, and the priesthood. These were particularly changed. We know because the Bible says so. That has Biblical authority.

But I realize, many many people have to wait and see the working of God before they will believe it. Israel is here, just as promised, though mostly in unbelief. The remnent will be saved. It is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is what I'm speaking of.

Much love!

Yeah but there is only ONE NAME , ONE WAY the sins of a jew or any man CAN BE TAKEN AWAY .
FAITH IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND . Any jew and any gentile who denies HIM as the CHRIST
will face the second death . That is a fact my friend .
I do get what you are trying to say , but the only way they will be saved , IS BY FAITH IN GOD .
Now why did i say faith in GOD . BECAUSE WHOM DO WE THINK JESUS IS , THE WORD OF GOD
The lake of fire will be filled with UNBELIEVERS , ABOMINABLE , those who loved a lie .
Whether jew or whether gentile . SALVATION is for BELIEVERS ONLY , whether jew or whether gentile .
Me thinks you agree with that . BUT it must be said BIG TIME .
cause i am watching a generation preach a false hope , a false love , a false gospel
and not a word of it gonna save them . The WRATH OF GOD will come upon
ALL WHO DENIED JESUS as THE CHRIST . whether jew , whether gentile . And that is a fact .
As i think you probably know that . But never the less , Me is gonna hound and ground it and continue to SOUND IT
OUT continually . For there is but one song , and a song of beauty it is . A song of death unto those who deny it
the song of life unto those who recieve it . BUT NO MATTER what the SONG was lovely , whether rejected or accepted .
CAUSE THE SONG POINTS and POINTED TO JESUS CHRIST ALONE .

 

[marks]

If your uncle told you that he had bequeathed you $10,000 in his will, and later told you that he had updated his will and increased the bequest to $20,000, would you accuse your uncle of breaking his word because he changed his original bequest?

James 1:16-17 KJV
16) Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

James 1:16-17 KJV
16) Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Much love!

I guess that fellow sees GOD as a man . GOD DONT CHANGE HIS WORD OR HIS PROMISE .
That fellow just offered up nothing but the reasonings of men . BUT LAMBS , LAMBS PREACH JESUS THE CHRIST .
KNOWING FULL WELL that GOD CANNOT LIE . SALVATION IS FOUND IN CHRIST ALONE .
ETERNAL LIFE IS FOUND IN CHRIST ALONE . And A man without the WEDDING GARMENTS
of CHRIST ALONE , GONNA BE ROOTED OUT , BOOTED OUT and wailing in out darkness and perdition .
JESUS ALONE is WHO the lambs shall point to and HIS WORDS alone shall be our meat and what we point too .
FOR GOD IS OUR GOD HIS CHRIST HE SENT OUR CHRIST and HIS SPIRIT BE OUR GUIDE
and the BIBLE BE OUR BOOK .

 

[marks]

Yeah but there is only ONE NAME , ONE WAY the sins of a jew or any man CAN BE TAKEN AWAY .
FAITH IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND . Any jew and any gentile who denies HIM as the CHRIST
will face the second death . That is a fact my friend .
I do get what you are trying to say , but the only way they will be saved , IS BY FAITH IN GOD .

Amen!!

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

These will be filfilled when Jesus comes, when they see Him, when as a bride they are readied for Him.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

I have passages all over the Bible that say specifically what I've been asserting.

Can you show me one single solitary passage which tells us that God will NOT return Israel to their land in salvation? Just one?

Not in the NT, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary.

Their absence signifies their removal.

In their place are the better promises of the better New Will and Testament, written at Calvary in the Blood of the Divine Testator, Jesus Christ.

 

[marks]

Not in the NT, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Affirmed by God in the NT,

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What does it mean . . . "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Their absence signifies their removal.

So then you are one who agrees with what the prophecies say, but your view is that they will not be fulfilled, having been removed in the New Covenant. Do I understand you correctly?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen!!

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

These will be filfilled when Jesus comes, when they see Him, when as a bride they are readied for Him.

Much love!

No my friend . Towards the end of your line you made a deadly serious and deadly error that was never once
taught or believed . You said AFTER HE COMES , WHEN THEY SEE HIM .
JESUS said otherwise . When once the master of the HOUSE has risen up
ITS TOO LATE MARK . now paul and james and others KNEW that as well .
And might SAVE SOME OF THEM . They never gave a false hope
that AFTER JESUS COMES THEY GONNA SEE HIM AND REPENT AND ALL IS WELL .
NO the only THING JESUS ever taught was , AND this he taught FIRST TO THE JEWS
and later it was taught to the entire church , BE YE READY for ye know not that day nor hour
That the LORD does come . LEST COMING SUDDENLY HE FIND YE AS A THIEF .
YOU learned something BIG TIME WRONG MARK . IF they dont know HIM and have rejected HIM
WHEN HE APPEARS they gonna wail as will the entire EARTH . YOu all learned this WRONG .
mark , IF I DIDNT LOVE YA i would not try and help you . MEN messed this up mark . MEN DID .
Dont fall for it any longer . This is not an attack , it is a sense of urgency to pull you out of it .

 

[PinSeeker]

...the promises and prophecies, so many of them, are for the children of Jacob. The Bible is very clear! They will be returned, and will believe, and will be saved.

Neither Covenantee nor I disagree with what you say, here, Marks. The problem is your understanding ~ or misunderstanding ~ regarding who the children of Jacob are... who are included as children of Jacob. Yet again, in the words of the author of Hebrews, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Paul affirmed this,

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To me this is really hard to miss.

Yes, and, considering that you love the Lord as we do, we are... well, I am, anyway... astonished that you continue to miss it, even though you quote the very thing that should keep you from missing what you're missing! Read what Paul says there again (and again and again and again, if that's what it takes)! Quoting you quoting Paul, here, "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved..." It truly is astonishing.

As I said above, quoting Paul in Galatians 3 ~ and I'm sure you understand what I mean, which is what Paul, the most Jewish of the Jews meant ~ the Israelites of old are we, and we are they... we are one people; "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus." (quoted words Paul's).

mark , at this moment you are in direct rebellion against GOD and HIS CHRIST .

Ah, now, I wouldn't say that, Amigo... :)

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[covenantee]

So then you are one who agrees with what the prophecies say, but your view is that they will not be fulfilled, having been removed in the New Covenant. Do I understand you correctly?

Much love!

Their physical fulfillments no longer appear in the New Covenant/Will/Testament, because they have been replaced therein by their spiritual fulfillments in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[PinSeeker]

The numerous Scriptures that PinSeeker and I have cited confirm that there is not one promise for anyone, Jew e.g. Jacob's children, or Gentile, who is not in Christ. Conversely, all of the promises are exclusively for those who are in Christ, both Jew e.g. Jacob's children, and Gentile.

Exactly.

They are known as the New Testament Church.

Well, the ones who are alive today. But there are many saints (believers) who "have gone before," in the words of that great hymn, For All the Saints." Believers who were of God's Israel even long before Jesus was born 2000-plus years ago. I think you agree, but this is what it feels like Marks is reacting so negatively toward; he think's you're excluding them. I think. :) But again, I think you agree with what I'm saying here, it just looks a little different in what you are saying here. Right?

Grace and peace!

 

[marks]

No my friend . Towards the end of your line you made a deadly serious and deadly error that was never once
taught or believed . You said AFTER HE COMES , WHEN THEY SEE HIM .

If my wording is poor, please excuse me. This is the passage to which I refer:

Zechariah 12:3-10 KJV
3) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4) In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5) And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6) In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7) The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8) In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Neither Covenantee nor I disagree with what you say, here, Marks. The problem is your understanding ~ or misunderstanding ~ regarding who the children of Jacob are... who are included as children of Jacob. Yet again, in the words of the author of Hebrews, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

In the letter to the Hebrews . . . How does this make the Israelites NOT the Israelites? Perhaps written by an Hebrew? Personally I think it was.

There are two groups of people whom God chose, and each in two very different ways, for very different purposes. One was the ethnic people Israel, who was choses to be the one's through whom Messiah would come, and also the one's through whom God would reveal Himself to the world.

God proclaimed many things concerning this people, and assured them that there was nothing that could happen short of ending the natural order of creation that would prevent God from fulfilling all He had said.

The other is the body of Christ, the ekklesia, the called out assembly from all nations, including Israel.

The difference between us is that I don't think the NT prevents in the least God fulfilling His Word to Israel. There is no more sacrifice for sin, and there is no more Levitical priesthood. But there is a promised land, and a promise to Isreal.

Much love!

 

[marks]

who the children of Jacob are... who are included as children of Jacob.

That's an easy one! Those born from his loins. The Israelites. Have you surveyed through the Bible noting the context of each place the man or the nation are called Israel, and when they are called Jacob? It's a very interesting study! I recommend it if you haven't. It takes some time, because there are many verses to look at, but very interesting!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, and, considering that you love the Lord as we do, we are... well, I am, anyway... astonished that you continue to miss it, even though you quote the very thing that should keep you from missing what you're missing! Read what Paul says there again (and again and again and again, if that's what it takes)! Quoting you quoting Paul, here, "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved..." It truly is astonishing.

I guess we both have some astonishment! So clearly written, yet unseen.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

What does it mean . . . "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"?

Those of Israel who rejected Christ during His ministry on earth, and rejected the Gospel for 3 1/2 years after His ascension during its proclamation to Israel; were blinded.

At the end of the 3 1/2 year period of the proclamation of the Gospel to Israel, the Gospel was opened to all, i.e. the fulness of, the Gentiles.

At which time, those of Israel who had been blinded were "unblinded", permitting them to hear and understand the Gospel, and to choose to receive Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16

 

[marks]

As I said above, quoting Paul in Galatians 3 ~ and I'm sure you understand what I mean, which is what Paul, the most Jewish of the Jews meant ~ the Israelites of old are we, and we are they... we are one people; "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus." (quoted words Paul's).

God chose 2 groups of people, in 2 very different kinds of choosing.

One was a people-group named after the name God gave their patriarch, Israel. God promised Israel, the man, then his sons, a land that He would give then in perpetuity. God outlined through the prophets a history that Israel would endure, including that they would be scattered out of their land, later to live again in it, and later still to be completely regathered to it being given a new heart, and the blesssings of their covenant with God, that was fulfilled on their behalf by Jesus.

The other is the Body of Christ, the ekklesia. These are from all nations, and are a spiritually united group, as opposed to Israel, an ethnic group.

When Jesus comes, the remainder of Israel at that time will be rescued from persecution, and given a new heart, that they will walk in all the statutes and precepts.

One does not obviate the other. All will be fulfilled. We need not disbelieve any.

Much love!