The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Triumph1300]

I disagree, Patrick.
This is the way I see it:
Hell is a destination like no other.
Satan's future in hell is described in Revelation 20:10: "The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur.

 

[teamventure]

Yes. Remember, tormenting is also a term related to refining. Furthermore, sulfur is a refining agent. Why would sulfur be used if the purpose isn't to refine? And why does it say that it will be done in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus is, I believe, personally supervising the transformation of Satan.

Besides, is not Satan doing EXACTLY what God intended him to do? Satan didn't come about by accident. God is using Satan for our edification. So why would God torture Satan for eternity or destroy him for being what God intended him to be?

Why does God "loose" Satan again upon the world at the end of the millennium? It's because the lesson is not yet finished. Again, God is using Satan. In the end, when it's all finished, Jesus will transform Satan as described above.

Umm, no. No evidence for your assertions of satan getting saved from the scriptures you referenced. Try again.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What?

Just what it says!

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

What's your view on the final judgement?
Here are the three popular biblical views:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism

All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

Speaking of Hell - as the saying goes "damned if I do or damned if I don't". But this is a juicy subject. Best not come in with scriptures blazing, lest the conversation degrades to unseemly accusations.

I submit damnationism and universalism are not supported logically.
Damnation is only reasonable if the spirit and personality is preserved and hell is needed to achieve justice. There is only one immortal soul. So it ain't us.

Universalism - implies there is no Divine Personality. Good and evil are meaningless. The problem of evil is passed on to the new Earth as if nothing happened. The problem of evil is solved simply by removing all that is evil so that only the good remains. Occam's razor.

Annihilationism is consistent with the concept an All Loving Person that Gives or With-holds His Love, the dichtomy of life vs death. That is the only theme that runs through the Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

Speaking of Hell - as the saying goes "damned if I do or damned if I don't". But this is a juicy subject. Best not come in with scriptures blazing, lest the conversation degrades to unseemly accusations.

A juicy subject, for sure. - LOL
Yes, let's put our blazing guns aside for now. See where it goes.

I submit damnationism and universalism are not supported logically.
Damnation is only reasonable if the spirit and personality is preserved and hell is needed to achieve justice. There is only one immortal soul. So it ain't us.

Damnationism and Universalism are not supported logically?
Only Annihilationism is supported logically?
Depends on your other doctrine, I suppose.

Restoration and redemption seem logical to me, as do love and justice.
Not sure where the logical disconnect is there.

Universalism - implies there is no Divine Personality. Good and evil are meaningless. The problem of evil is passed on to the new Earth as if nothing happened. The problem of evil is solved simply by removing all that is evil so that only the good remains. Occam's razor.

Like me, you seem to have some misconceptions about Universalism until you learn more.
I'm glad we are having this friendly chat.

In Christian Universalism, also known as Universal Restoration and Ultimate Redemption (UR) ,
Good and evil are NOT meaningless. The problem of evil is NOT passed on to the new Earth as if nothing happened.
And YES, the problem of evil is resolved by removing all that is evil so that only the good remains. Why not?

Annihilationism is consistent with the concept an All Loving Person that Gives or With-holds His Love, the dichtomy of life vs death. That is the only theme that runs through the Bible.

How can "an All Loving Person" (God) withhold love and still be an "All Loving Person"?
Is THAT supported logically?

The dichotomy of "life vs death" is "the only theme that runs through the Bible"?
I think I noticed lots of other themes.

 

[Ghada]

What's your view on the final judgement?
Here are the three popular biblical views:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism

All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Only unbelieving men and rebellious angels contradict the Bible.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23)

The Bible says damnation.

Everything else is just mastering the mystery of iniquity by fair-sounding words and speeches.

I really never understood why unbelievers in the words of the Bible, don't just say so, rather than trying to rewrite the Bible in their own image. That was until I saw that all their rewriting always comes down to one thing: Excusing and justifying their way of living, that does not conform to image of Christ.

There are two things on earth that prove the Bible is God's own words. The first that none of them contradict each other. And the second that so many people through history have been going out of their way trying to change the Bible into something else.

No other book in history has that record. There are plenty of books in history, science, philosophy, the arts, etc... that people agree or disagree with, but no other book has anyone else trying to rewrite it to suit their own fancy. We just read the authors, and then either agree or disagree. No harm no foul.

Even Darwin's book of atheism isn't being rewritten by believers in God. We just reject it as false science with an agenda and move on.

 

[Ghada]

After hearing just a few of the guy's words, we see he first casts doubt on the plain words of the Bible, and then proceeds to come up with alternatives.

An example is by saying he can see how some people have wrought out of the Bible the teaching of eternal torment.

Since when is quoting the Bible wringing something out of it?

He also has the typical accusation of the world of unbelievers against the God of the Bible, that He is evil for condemning the wicked forever.

And in due humanist fashion, he also makes himself more righteous and merciful than God, by saying he could never be glad about anyone being tormented in hell.

With this tripe as his prologue, I'm not interested in just how he twists the Bible into his own image.

But if anyone wants to write it point by point, I'd be glad to compare it to what the Bible says.

 

[Jack]

I believe that Satan and the so-called "fallen" angels are doing EXACTLY what God intends for them to do. I also believe that they too will be saved and transformed by Jesus.

Are you saying Jesus lied?

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Only unbelieving men and rebellious angels contradict the Bible.

Well, sounds like you have a REAL problem then.
You were presented with three biblical doctrines of the final judgement. (hell)
All three are contradictory.

1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism

And you chose Annihilationism as the only "logical" choice. Right?
Not biblical, but logical.
- How can you now claim that "The Bible doesn't contradict itself."
- Did you choose the right doctrine? Most Christians disagree with you.
Are they all wrong while you are ALL right? Another contradiction.

 

[St. SteVen]

And in due humanist fashion, he also makes himself more righteous and merciful than God, by saying he could never be glad about anyone being tormented in hell.

Say what?
Are you saying it is right to be glad about someone being tormented in hell?
That's just sick.

 

[St. SteVen]

Excusing and justifying their way of living, that does not conform to image of Christ.

That means a lot coming from you.
I'm itching to hit the IGNORE button so I can enjoy your absence.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Flifes-pretty-good-without-you

 

[Ghada]

Well, sounds like you have a REAL problem then.
You were presented with three biblical doctrines of the final judgement. (hell)
All three are contradictory.

1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism

Two other doctrines disbelieving the biblical one, is not my problem, but that of the other teachers. I personally don't have a problem with what others believe. I only defend the teaching of the Bible, and I show how other teachings are not the Bible.

It's simple. We take what others teach, and then quote the Bible next to them, and see how they differ.

And you chose Annihilationism as the only "logical" choice. Right?

Do you actually read what others write, or do you just see disagreement and then turn it into something else?

Not biblical, but logical.
- How can you now claim that "The Bible doesn't contradict itself."

Because it doesn't. Your unbelief is not my problem either.

I've never found for myself, nor from others, any argument that the Bible contradicts itself, that proved true.

And most all teachings that are not Biblic are poven simply by the fact that no words of the Bible can be quoted as plainly teaching it.

Ex: The word annihilation is not in the Bible, nor is it ever a proper translation of any such word in the Bible. There is no teaching in the Bible that speaks of annihilation as possible.

Annihilation is a metaphorical word only. It is an inaccurate word for destruction. There is no such thing in God's creation.

Universalism also is not found in the Bible, other than that all men have sinned,a nd death passes upon all men by sinning.

Both are used as opposing teachings to the Bible, and both are made for the same purpose: to justify sinful living, and searing the conscience to Bible judgment, condemnation, and damnation.

- Did you choose the right doctrine? Most Christians disagree with you.
Are they all wrong while you are ALL right? Another contradiction.

Just as a matter of info for you. When you show you take things personally, and respond with personal problems, it proves you aren't reading the Bible objectively as we ought. Which leads to not reading the words of others objectively.

Quoting the Bible does not make someone personally right. It only means they know what it is says by reading it. It doesn't even mean they agree with it. Many unbelievers in history have accurately quoted and taught the words of the Bible, while also disagreeing with it, and they say why.

That is honesty that I would rather deal with, than people who misquote the Bible on purpose and try to say that's what the Author really intends.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3)

I do though enjoy defending the Bible against other teachings, if they would stick to point.

 

[Ghada]

That means a lot coming from you.
I'm itching to hit the IGNORE button so I can enjoy your absence.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Flifes-pretty-good-without-you

Since all you've done so far is make things personal, then that would be a good idea. The bylaws of the site are pretty much kept by not making things personal. So unless you begin to offer arguments to point, then I'll just not respond.

Take care.

 

[Ghada]

Say what?
Are you saying it is right to be glad about someone being tormented in hell?
That's just sick.

A question works for me.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 33)

God does not take pleasure in the death and damnation of the wicked. Neither should we. Only the wicked by the devil take pleasure in the torment of others.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14)

Nowhere does the Bible say that mankind dwelling with God on the new earth, will see nor even be aware of the torment of the wicked.

There is no place where God is not, but there will be places in black darkness, where men dwelling with God don't know about, nor care for.

The whole premise of the guy on video is from ignorance of the Bible, and wreaks of self-righteous platitudes and usual accusations against God and His righteous judgment.

He's an unbelieving humanist that says things about the Bible that are not true, and has a spirit of animosity against what the Bible does say. Instead of just leaving it alone, he tries to make the Bible say things that it does not say. The end result is always the same of searing the conscience to the Bible, while justifying ourselves and the way we live.

 

[Grailhunter]

What's your view on the final judgement?
Here are the three popular biblical views:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism

All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

Judgment does not mean damnation.

No such thing as annihilation.

And Universalism is a big surprise and a ticket to eternal Hell.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to Original Poster,

From my understanding when it comes to hell, the Jewish Old Testament describes it as a place that is dark, and gloomy, there is always a want, slippery hard to find a good placement, and bars,(think about Jonah in the Well when he prayed in 'sheol') was the Second section where Paradise resided, as before Jesus Christ came no one was able to get to God at all; and everyone went to the realm of the dead - or "Hell", or "Sheol". Sheol held to places, which were seperated from God; perhaps three - Paradise (Abrahams Bosom), the separated part which no one could cross which showed the resurrected soul still neededing and wanting - also able to talk to those in Paradise though not able to cross.

Jesus Christ came to restore this place which is away from God by paying for Sin - so that all sin could be taken care of. What happens is that at the return of Christ, and the gathering of the saints, and the doing away of the devil, hell, only leaves for only two eternal resting places available considering that Hell - (where the dead went to away from God - due to sin; though there is a good and a bad place) - is tied up and done away with, when it is thrown away after having everyone come out of it at the great white throne judgment in that day.

There only resides, the Outside of the Kingdom, and the Inside of the Heavenly Kingdom, at least according to Revelation if you are a believer in Jesus Christ being able to restore everything to the way it was in the Garden of Eden.

Some disregard that Jesus Christ has come back and are still waiting - and if that is the case, there are people still going to Paradise, and the Prison part of Sheol, and the great white throne judgement has yet to happened.

So what you believe on these subjects will greatly effect how you see the scope of the world at large, and address how you view God overall.

Did God really love everyone in the world so much he did send his son - in order to make right what was lost in the Garden? Direct access and connection with God by and through the holy spirit having faith and trusting God that he has taken care of everything now today; and it is up to you as an individual to seek out and grow in faith and grow in loving God and loving others.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hello to Original Poster,

My username is @St. SteVen

 

[MatthewG]

My username is @St. SteVen

Just wanted to message out some thoughts, Thank you steven.

 

[St. SteVen]

Did God really love everyone in the world so much he did send his son

Not according to Christianity.

Christianity says that Jesus only died for the Elect (predestined),
everyone else was predestined for eternal destruction. God's choice.
Or that God is making sport of our eternal souls by making the narrow gate that
leads to life nearly impossible to find. "... only a few find it." - Matthew 7:14

 

[St. SteVen]

Just wanted to message out some thoughts, Thank you steven.

Good. I hope you feel better now.