The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Grailhunter]

Hello to Original Poster,

From my understanding when it comes to hell, the Jewish Old Testament describes it as a place that is dark, and gloomy, there is always a want, slippery hard to find a good placement, and bars,(think about Jonah in the Well when he prayed in 'sheol') was the Second section where Paradise resided, as before Jesus Christ came no one was able to get to God at all; and everyone went to the realm of the dead - or "Hell", or "Sheol". Sheol held to places, which were seperated from God; perhaps three - Paradise (Abrahams Bosom), the separated part which no one could cross which showed the resurrected soul still neededing and wanting - also able to talk to those in Paradise though not able to cross.

Jesus Christ came to restore this place which is away from God by paying for Sin - so that all sin could be taken care of. What happens is that at the return of Christ, and the gathering of the saints, and the doing away of the devil, hell, only leaves for only two eternal resting places available considering that Hell - (where the dead went to away from God - due to sin; though there is a good and a bad place) - is tied up and done away with, when it is thrown away after having everyone come out of it at the great white throne judgment in that day.

There only resides, the Outside of the Kingdom, and the Inside of the Heavenly Kingdom, at least according to Revelation if you are a believer in Jesus Christ being able to restore everything to the way it was in the Garden of Eden.

Some disregard that Jesus Christ has come back and are still waiting - and if that is the case, there are people still going to Paradise, and the Prison part of Sheol, and the great white throne judgement has yet to happened.

So what you believe on these subjects will greatly effect how you see the scope of the world at large, and address how you view God overall.

Did God really love everyone in the world so much he did send his son - in order to make right what was lost in the Garden? Direct access and connection with God by and through the holy spirit having faith and trusting God that he has taken care of everything now today; and it is up to you as an individual to seek out and grow in faith and grow in loving God and loving others.

Matthew FYI You can check this out on your own.

Nothing pertaining to a Hell or Hades or a fiery punishment is in the actual Hebrew Scriptures. The Christian Old Testament sneaks in a few words for it because they did not understand why Hell was not in the Old Testament.

The Jews of the Old Testament did not believe in a Hell or a Devil and still do not believe in them today. Not that they are idiots, but rather there is not anything about Hell in the Hebrew Bible. And very little about Satan being a demon. This becomes evident in the New Testament.

What they are talking about in the Hebrew Bible is Shoal, and an understanding of Shoal as a whole does not make it into the New Testament or Christian beliefs.

Hades is a Greek word so for those that understand.....A Greek word cannot appear in the Hebrew text. Wrong time period and wrong language. Besides that....Hades is a Greek god and he ruled over a spirit / physical underworld prison of the same name that did not have torture. As it was the Greek did not have a word that meant a place of spirit/soul fiery punishment, Neither did the Hebrew language, so that is why Christ and the Apostles used descriptions and borrowed words from the Greek for Hell.

The word Hell comes from the Germanic languages around the 8th century AD.

You said....
From my understanding when it comes to hell, the Jewish Old Testament describes it as a place that is dark, and gloomy, there is always a want, slippery hard to find a good placement, and bars,(think about Jonah in the Well when he prayed in 'sheol') was the Second section where Paradise resided, as before Jesus Christ came no one was able to get to God at all; and everyone went to the realm of the dead - or "Hell", or "Sheol". Sheol held to places, which were seperated from God; perhaps three - Paradise (Abrahams Bosom), the separated part which no one could cross which showed the resurrected soul still neededing and wanting - also able to talk to those in Paradise though not able to cross.

This is all about Sheol.....all Jews good and bad went there, "gathered with their fathers" but the biblical details are slim. Extra biblical writings say there are levels of Sheol and the lower levels are for bad people that are "drawn" there and this is where it is dark. The top of Sheol is like paradise. Some Scriptures and tradition and extra biblical writings say this is where Christ and thief went from the cross....keeping in mind the Scriptures do not indicate that Christ went from the cross to heaven, in fact Christ told Mary Magdalene that He had not ascended to his Father yet.

And again Scriptures and tradition suggest that Christ taught the Gospel in the Paradise of Sheol.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not according to Christianity.

Christianity says that Jesus only died for the Elect (predestined),
everyone else was predestined for eternal destruction. God's choice.
Or that God is making sport of our eternal souls by making the narrow gate that
leads to life nearly impossible to find. "... only a few find it." - Matthew 7:14

This would be from the Calvinist beliefs that are an abomination and insult to God.

 

[MatthewG]

Matthew FYI You can check this out on your own.

Nothing pertaining to a Hell or Hades or a fiery punishment is in the actual Hebrew Scriptures. The Christian Old Testament sneaks in a few words for it because they did not understand why Hell was not in the Old Testament.

The Jews of the Old Testament did not believe in a Hell or a Devil and still do not believe in them today. Not that they are idiots, but rather there is not anything about Hell in the Hebrew Bible. And very little about Satan being a demon. This becomes evident in the New Testament.

What they are talking about in the Hebrew Bible is Shoal, and an understanding of Shoal as a whole does not make it into the New Testament or Christian beliefs.

Hades is a Greek word so for those that understand.....A Greek word cannot appear in the Hebrew text. Wrong time period and wrong language. Besides that....Hades is a Greek god and he ruled over a spirit / physical underworld prison of the same name that did not have torture. As it was the Greek did not have a word that meant a place of spirit/soul fiery punishment, Neither did the Hebrew language, so that is why Christ and the Apostles used descriptions and borrowed words from the Greek for Hell.

The word Hell comes from the Germanic languages around the 8th century AD.

You said....
From my understanding when it comes to hell, the Jewish Old Testament describes it as a place that is dark, and gloomy, there is always a want, slippery hard to find a good placement, and bars,(think about Jonah in the Well when he prayed in 'sheol') was the Second section where Paradise resided, as before Jesus Christ came no one was able to get to God at all; and everyone went to the realm of the dead - or "Hell", or "Sheol". Sheol held to places, which were seperated from God; perhaps three - Paradise (Abrahams Bosom), the separated part which no one could cross which showed the resurrected soul still neededing and wanting - also able to talk to those in Paradise though not able to cross.

This is all about Sheol.....all Jews good and bad went there, "gathered with their fathers" but the biblical details are slim. Extra biblical writings say there are levels of Sheol and the lower levels are for bad people that are "drawn" there and this is where it is dark. The top of Sheol is like paradise. Some Scriptures and tradition and extra biblical writings say this is where Christ and thief went from the cross....keeping in mind the Scriptures do not indicate that Christ went from the cross to heaven, in fact Christ told Mary Magdalene that He had not ascended to his Father yet.

And again Scriptures and tradition suggest that Christ taught the Gospel in the Paradise of Sheol.

Thank you for your comments. Wasn't Hades, and Sheol, just saying "Realm of the dead"?

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for your comments. Wasn't Hades, and Sheol, just saying "Realm of the dead"?

When people mess with the scriptures during the translation process it always causes a mess.

If the scriptures were talking about the Greek god Hades or the realm he presided over it would be different.
But the scriptures are not talking about that. And using the Greek word Hades in the Old Testament is an attempt to get people to believe that the Old Testament was talked about Hell.

We would like to believe that the people in the past that were translating the Scriptures were doing so to provide us with an accurate reading, but a lot of times they did not. They had beliefs that they wanted to be in the Scriptures so they put them their. For instance they removed God the Father’s name and replaced it with Lord or God or both nearly 6,000 times. I see that as a criminal act and they should have been burnt at the stake for that. The Johannine Comma Addition in the New Testament is another example of this.

That is why you and I have to go back to the scriptures and look at the words that were actually there.

The topic of Sheol get kinda deep because the information is sketchy and conflicting. And opens up some questions the Bible does not address.

Is Sheol still receiving Jews?
Does it receive Christians?
Is Christ resurrecting from Sheol?
And as you say is it just the realm of the dead?

Whatever we have on this is mostly opinions.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

...


Depends on your other doctrine, I suppose.

Restoration and redemption seem logical to me, as do love and justice.
Not sure where the logical disconnect is there.

Like me, you seem to have some misconceptions about Universalism until you learn more.
I'm glad we are having this friendly chat.

In Christian Universalism, also known as Universal Restoration and Ultimate Redemption (UR) ,
Good and evil are NOT meaningless. The problem of evil is NOT passed on to the new Earth as if nothing happened.
And YES, the problem of evil is resolved by removing all that is evil so that only the good remains. Why not?

How can "an All Loving Person" (God) withhold love and still be an "All Loving Person"?

A person who gives to no matter whom is untrustworthy. Imagine a wife who with holds to none. We politely call this an open marriage. Depending on the parameter of consent - there are more colourful terms.

A person without an opinion is a mechanism

A person who has no preference is called indifferent.

I love my mother and my wife, both of them, but there are things I would to my wife I would not do to my mother.

Your use of the quantity love is strawman type argument.

Is THAT supported logically?

The dichotomy of "life vs death" is "the only theme that runs through the Bible"?
I think I noticed lots of other themes.

Universalism entails maximizing the redemption quantity. God wants to fit as many people in the New Earth and New Heaven. 2000 years of long lived humans procreating profusedly can produce trillions of individuals {upper limit with extended sexual viability) on the earth. Why not instigate universal redemption at the flood. where the New Earth can house only in the billions Why have the extra history of Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Why promote notion of holiness. Adherents would burst at the seams if one flings open the doors wide open. Drugs Sex an Rock and Roll Maximized redemption renders everything rather absurdly extraneous.
Purgatory is also absurd as to reclaim an individual's personality after extensive torture would require aeons of psychotherapy if not impossible. Will The New Earth and New Heaven be filled with traumatized personalities.

Damnationism maximizes justice.
What is the difference justice and revenge?

From Psychology today
1. Revenge is predominantly emotional; justice primarily rational.
2. Revenge is, by nature, personal; justice is impersonal, impartial, and both a social and legal phenomenon.
3. Revenge is an act of vindictiveness; justice, of vindication.
4. Revenge is about cycles; justice is about closure.
5. Revenge is about retaliation; justice is about restoring balance.

Hell does not promote justice, it is in fact insulting to the elect and the Divine.
A) eternal torture is rational- No
Rationality is defined the quality or state of being agreeable to reason.

Newsweek Magazine
Science Shows That Torture Doesn't Work and Is Counterproductive
By Rupert Stone On 05/08/16 at 3:32 PM EDT

B)both a social and legal phenomenon, No
Per www.ohchr.org - About International law prohibits torture at all times and in all places, even in situations of armed conflict or public emergency. There are no exceptions. States have made unprecedented efforts towards establishing frameworks for implementing the prohibition of torture.

C) a vindication. No
Vindication of a victim entails solace and comfort afforded to the said victim. Not the satisfaction of screaming tortured reprobates.

D) closure, restores balance. Only if, eternal tortured souls is part of the intended order. Only a Calvinist can embrace such an order, then I have a few rousing sermons concerning Calvinism I would like to submit to the argument

None of the aspects of justice is upheld. Hell does not promote justice. Damnationism is absurdly empty of virtue.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your use of the quantity love is strawman type argument.

You wrote "an All Loving Person" (God)
How is "All" not a quantity?

If I have five apples and I give you ALL my apples,
how many apples did I give you? (five)

Since God, as you say is an "an All Loving Person",
how could he demonstrate anything but love?

If God demonstrates anything else but love
he is NOT an "an All Loving Person" (God)

The Bible says God is love.

 

[St. SteVen]

None of the aspects of justice is upheld. Hell does not promote justice. Damnationism is absurdly empty of virtue.

Thanks for your detailed, interesting, and thoughtful reply.
However, I'm not clear on your position. You oppose Damnationism, that's good...
That leaves Annihilationism, or Universalism (UR) ???

 

[Jack]

A person who gives to no matter whom is untrustworthy. Imagine a wife who with holds to none. We politely call this an open marriage. Depending on the parameter of consent - there are more colourful terms.

A person without an opinion is a mechanism

A person who has no preference is called indifferent.

I love my mother and my wife, both of them, but there are things I would to my wife I would not do to my mother.

Your use of the quantity love is strawman type argument.


Universalism entails maximizing the redemption quantity. God wants to fit as many people in the New Earth and New Heaven. 2000 years of long lived humans procreating profusedly can produce trillions of individuals {upper limit with extended sexual viability) on the earth. Why not instigate universal redemption at the flood. where the New Earth can house only in the billions Why have the extra history of Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Why promote notion of holiness. Adherents would burst at the seams if one flings open the doors wide open. Drugs Sex an Rock and Roll Maximized redemption renders everything rather absurdly extraneous.
Purgatory is also absurd as to reclaim an individual's personality after extensive torture would require aeons of psychotherapy if not impossible. Will The New Earth and New Heaven be filled with traumatized personalities.

Damnationism maximizes justice.
What is the difference justice and revenge?

From Psychology today
1. Revenge is predominantly emotional; justice primarily rational.
2. Revenge is, by nature, personal; justice is impersonal, impartial, and both a social and legal phenomenon.
3. Revenge is an act of vindictiveness; justice, of vindication.
4. Revenge is about cycles; justice is about closure.
5. Revenge is about retaliation; justice is about restoring balance.

Hell does not promote justice, it is in fact insulting to the elect and the Divine.
A) eternal torture is rational- No
Rationality is defined the quality or state of being agreeable to reason.

Newsweek Magazine
Science Shows That Torture Doesn't Work and Is Counterproductive
By Rupert Stone On 05/08/16 at 3:32 PM EDT

B)both a social and legal phenomenon, No
Per www.ohchr.org - About International law prohibits torture at all times and in all places, even in situations of armed conflict or public emergency. There are no exceptions. States have made unprecedented efforts towards establishing frameworks for implementing the prohibition of torture.

C) a vindication. No
Vindication of a victim entails solace and comfort afforded to the said victim. Not the satisfaction of screaming tortured reprobates.

D) closure, restores balance. Only if, eternal tortured souls is part of the intended order. Only a Calvinist can embrace such an order, then I have a few rousing sermons concerning Calvinism I would like to submit to the argument

None of the aspects of justice is upheld. Hell does not promote justice. Damnationism is absurdly empty of virtue.

Belief in the everlasting Hell fire is not required for eternal residency therein. God won't ask permission to burn people in Hell.

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

You wrote "an All Loving Person" (God)
How is "All" not a quantity?

If I have five apples and I give you ALL my apples,
how many apples did I give you? (five)

Since God, as you say is an "an All Loving Person",
how could he demonstrate anything but love?

If God demonstrates anything else but love
he is NOT an "an All Loving Person" (God)

The Bible says God is love.

Two people, one is elect the other reprobate. Loving them both, I offer them their inheritance equally. Knowing the future, one spends on a good adult life and the other on drugs sex and rock N roll and then to other perversions. Did I love the elect more so than the reprobate. Not at all, they both received their share. You are conflating equality of opportunity with that of outcome. The 2 sons are described as pottery, one whole the other broken. To fix the pottery, is the potter required to recall all the pottery and reforge them all anew. God is not obligated to create another universe to change the reprobate's fate. This my analogy of supernatural interdiction. The reprobate pot has to get some crazy glue and heal itself first and not expect a factory recall. If I have enough water to fill 10 glass why should I keep a thousand. From the perspective of the glass all 10 can be filled, The number 10 or 1000 is moot. The problem is the glass that cannot be filled. Not the decanter with a volume > 10 glasses. All glasses can be filled if they hold the water.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Thanks for your detailed, interesting, and thoughtful reply.
However, I'm not clear on your position. You oppose Damnationism, that's good...
That leaves Annihilationism, or Universalism (UR) ???

I am an annihilationist. Without the Giver of immortality,we are all creatures to return to non existence.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Belief in the everlasting Hell fire is not required for eternal residency therein. God won't ask permission to burn people in Hell.

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Hello Jack,

God freely offers immortality, but those who refuses are sent to hell.
The concept of hell belongs in an irish pub, not in a church. :-)

Conor mcgregor has an argument in a bar. To end it, he graciously offers a whiskey to end the disagreement. The old man still miffed,refuses it. So Conor mcgregor punches him.

Video of Conor McGregor Punching Old Man in Head in Whiskey Dispute

Conor McGregor socked a man in the ear with a closed fist in an Irish pub.

www.tmz.com

There are dichotomies which I believe are foundational. Christ vs antichrist. Michael vs satan. Sea vs Earth. Truth vs lie. Life vs death.
The doctrine of hell seems so beneath our God's Dignity. Bible are full of verses, best leave them undisturbed. No verses :-)

 

[Jack]

Hello Jack,

God freely offers immortality, but those who refuses are sent to hell.
The concept of hell belongs in an irish pub, not in a church. :)

Was Jesus drunk when He said this?

Mark 9
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Conor mcgregor has an argument in a bar. To end it, he graciously offers a whiskey to end the disagreement. The old man still miffed,refuses it. So Conor mcgregor punches him.

Video of Conor McGregor Punching Old Man in Head in Whiskey Dispute

Conor McGregor socked a man in the ear with a closed fist in an Irish pub.

www.tmz.com

There are dichotomies which I believe are foundational. Christ vs antichrist. Michael vs satan. Sea vs Earth. Truth vs lie. Life vs death.
The doctrine of hell seems so beneath our God's Dignity. Bible are full of verses, best leave them undisturbed. No verses :)

Since you clearly reject our Bible then what is your religion?

Matthew 5
Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Jack]

Hello Jack,

God freely offers immortality, but those who refuses are sent to hell.
The concept of hell belongs in an irish pub, not in a church. :)

Conor mcgregor has an argument in a bar. To end it, he graciously offers a whiskey to end the disagreement. The old man still miffed,refuses it. So Conor mcgregor punches him.

Video of Conor McGregor Punching Old Man in Head in Whiskey Dispute

Conor McGregor socked a man in the ear with a closed fist in an Irish pub.

www.tmz.com

There are dichotomies which I believe are foundational. Christ vs antichrist. Michael vs satan. Sea vs Earth. Truth vs lie. Life vs death.
The doctrine of hell seems so beneath our God's Dignity. Bible are full of verses, best leave them undisturbed. No verses :)

Have you never read the Bible?

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Have you never read the Bible?

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

;-) I certainly have that is why I don't indulge with fantasies ... or dreams.

To paraphrase Rev 20:10
The beast of sky will by tossed in the angel incinerator along with the beast of the sea and beast of the earth forever and ever. How do you know that a beast is tormented? The roar becomes a whimper. Imagine the teeth use to rend the flesh now is ticklishly gnawing the unwashed feet. Annoying but best let God rebuke them. :-)

 

[Jack]

;-) I certainly have that is why I don't indulge with fantasies ... or dreams.

To paraphrase Rev 20:10
The beast of sky will by tossed in the angel incinerator along with the beast of the sea and beast of the earth forever and ever. How do you know that a beast is tormented? The roar becomes a whimper. Imagine the teeth use to rend the flesh now is ticklishly gnawing the unwashed feet. Annoying but best let God rebuke them. :)

So my quotes of Jesus are fantasies and dreams? I bet you like the parts about everlasting life. You can't pick the parts of the Bible you like and be a Christian! You're deceiving yourself.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NKJV)
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

So my quotes of Jesus are fantasies and dreams? I bet you like the parts about everlasting life. You can't pick the parts of the Bible you like and be a Christian! You're deceiving yourself.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NKJV)
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Since this wonderful hell is eternal and hot where are all the sounds coming from? My experience is when you burn weeds, you get ash. Burn a rib eye long enough,you also get ash. :-(

 

[Jack]

Since this wonderful hell is eternal and hot where are all the sounds coming from? My experience is when you burn weeds, you get ash. Burn a rib eye long enough,you also get ash. :-(

Hell is wonderful? Jesus said it's better to cut off your hand than to be in Hell "forever and ever". I hope you don't find out the hard way.

Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[St. SteVen]

Did I love the elect more so than the reprobate.

Perhaps you misunderstand something about reprobation, or our views differ.

There is nothing we can do to undo what only God can do in the first place.
In the case of reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours.

The Good Shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one.
The lost sheep has no say in the matter. The sheep is carried back to the fold.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Hell is wonderful? Jesus said it's better to cut off your hand than to be in Hell "forever and ever". I hope you don't find out the hard way.

Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

Just wondering, are you wishing me to the fire or just showing me how wonderful you visions are?
Real actions done on this earth, 75% of Christians supported the Patriot Act so people can be tortured.

 

[Jack]

Just wondering, are you wishing me to the fire or just showing me how wonderful you visions are?
Real actions done on this earth, 75% of Christians supported the Patriot Act so people can be tortured.

Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,