Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Mr E]

“Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has to do with accusing Jesus Christ of being demon- possessed instead of Spirit-filled.”

What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Can the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit take place today?

www.gotquestions.org

I agree with that statement. If I remember correctly, we previously discussed the passages of scripture in Matthew and Mark describing the incident and were in agreement about it.

The idea is problematic for those who hold to the equality or actuality concept between God and Jesus. Jesus is differentiating here, saying that folks can say anything they want against himself (a son of man) but don't speak against that spirit of God within him.

If Jesus was God or even 'functionally equal' to God (whatever that's supposed to mean) in terms of agency or representation, then no matter how you slice it, speaking against one would be functionally equal to speaking against the other.

Jesus says it's not the same.

 

[Matthias]

Here’s a link to a Jewish messianic source which I read daily @Jim B.

Messianic Bible

Reaching Israel and the Nations for Yeshua

free.messianicbible.com

I don’t endorse everything that they say (and I don’t support them financially) but I‘m able to agree with them on many things.

 

[Matthias]

I directed your attention in an earlier post to church history. Did you follow up on it? Have you read what Gregory of Nazianzus wrote concerning what the wise among the church leaders believed about the Holy Spirit in 380 AD? Do you know who Gregory of Nazianzus is? Are you aware of his significance in the post-biblical development of trinitarian dogma?

I don’t know if he did or not. He didn’t say and I’m not going to speculate about it.

The writing by Gregory of Nazianzus I was alluding to is Fifth Theological Oration, Chapter V.

CHURCH FATHERS: Fifth Theological Oration (Oration 31) (Gregory Nazianzen)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

In his work History of the Christian Church, Schaff quotes Gregory on the astonishingly wide variety of belief concerning the Holy Spirit which existed amongst the wise in the church at that late date in the fourth century. The Nicene Creed of 325 didn’t address the matter. The Council of Constantinople in 381 clarified and amended the Nicene Creed to address it. From 381 AD forward, Gregory’s position became the established orthodoxy.

381 AD is a critical date in Church history.

For such a crucial issue, why is it so seldom discussed by Christians?

I’m sure there is more than one answer to that question. I’ll tell the interested reader why I didn’t discuss it when I was a young Christian -> I was ignorant about Church history. I simply didn’t know anything about it in those early days.

That began to be rectified when my Southern Baptist pastor taught a special class about Church history, giving an overview of it. That was a shocker, but that was just the beginning.

Roman Catholic clergy and scholars later expanded my knowledge of Church history. So too did other Protestant clergy and scholars.

In college, students were required to read the early Church fathers; most of that reading, however, was select reading. Seldom were we required to read entire works. I was married, had a child, and working 40-50 hours per week as an environmental engineer during the day and taking 15 credit hours of course work at night and on weekends each semester. If an entire work was assigned, I read it. If excerpts were assigned, I read it. If not, I didn’t. I had the interest but neither the time nor the energy to read beyond what was assigned. The time and energy problem eased after graduation.

I read and reread Church history daily and urge others to spend at least some time reading it too.

***

“Skitch. How did we get here?” - Lenny

”I led you here, sir, for I am Spartacus.” - Guy

(From the movie, That Thing You Do.)

***

How did we get here in Christianity? Church history led us here, and so many of us are ignorant about it and uninterested in it.

 

[Matthias]

Another reason why some Jews don’t accept Jesus -> Church history.

 

[Jim B]

Another reason why some Jews don’t accept Jesus -> Church history.

I am happy that you said "some Jews", as the OP implies that all Jews reject Jesus, who was, of course, a Jew.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It wasn't "Jesus" who emptied himself. Jesus was born a tiny little baby in a tiny little town. He wasn't a person up in Heaven. You are mixing up and fixating on an idea in your head that there was a man who became a baby and entered into Mary's womb--- the very thing that Jesus explained to Nicodemus was a misunderstanding of the concept.

The son of God is spirit. The Father is Spirit. The union that produces the son of God from the Father's seed is conceived in spirit and it is a spiritual son that is sent to the world to save it. This spiritual son is sent to MAN and this seed, or word, or understanding-- whatever you want to call it, is what a man is anointed with--- becoming a messiah. That's what happened to Jesus. And not just him.

The Pre-incarnate God emptied Himself and was then begotten and named Jesus.
But here is a more in depth study and interesting perspective. Sonship was not eternal. The second person of of the Trinity was not a son prior to His incarnation

The Sonship of Christ

www.romans45.org

 

[Wrangler]

Not even close. No, Moses was not functionally equal with God.

Untrue. You obviously are rejecting the role of agency in human history.

In the military there is a chain of command. A private does not have to actually hear the commander—in-chief give a command in order to receive the POTUS’s orders. This was presented in the film A Few Good Men.

In the film, the sergeant gave an order to a private saying the Colonel gave the order. Agents are functionally equal to their principles when carrying out the purpose for which they were sent.

I suppose you might want to deny this because it is God we are talking about. However, a fair reading of Scripture shows heavenly beings operate this way also. Angels are heavenly messengers conveying God’s commands. Interestingly, we say Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed by God but a careful reading indicates God’s agents - angels - actually did it - at his command.

 

[Mr E]

The Pre-incarnate God emptied Himself and was then begotten and named Jesus.
But here is a more in depth study and interesting perspective. Sonship was not eternal. The second person of of the Trinity was not a son prior to His incarnation

The Sonship of Christ

www.romans45.org

The Father, sent His son…. To Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Hebrews 1:5 is quoting David from Ps 2

Yes.

In Heb 1:8 the passage goes on to speak of this son--- once again quoting a Psalm of David, where David is referring to himself, as this one whom has been declared God's son.

So, you believe Hebrews 1 invokes Ps 2 to apply these verses again to David?

 

[Mr E]

Yes.

So, you believe Hebrews 1 invokes Ps 2 to apply these verses again to David?

No, I said the writer of Hebrews invokes those quotes and applies them to Jesus.

David applied the idea to himself and penned the thoughts. In this way Jesus is a type of David while both David and Jesus are a type of Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

No, I said the writer of Hebrews invokes those quotes and applies them to Jesus.

David applied the idea to himself and penned the thoughts. In this way Jesus is a type of David while both David and Jesus are a type of Christ.

Both sons of God per Psalm 2.

 

[Matthias]

The Pre-incarnate God emptied Himself and was then begotten and named Jesus.
But here is a more in depth study and interesting perspective. Sonship was not eternal. The second person of of the Trinity was not a son prior to His incarnation

The Sonship of Christ

www.romans45.org

Denying the eternal Sonship of the second person of the Trinity is a very serious matter. It is considered by historical orthodox trinitarians to be heretical. MacArthur took a lot of heat over teaching incarnational Sonship and issued a statement acknowledging it as error. He says that he has abandoned incarnational Sonship and now endorses the historical orthodox teaching of eternal Sonship. (See the link provided.)

Has John MacArthur Really Changed His Position on the Sonship of Christ?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

Were you aware of that?

Do you deny the doctrine of eternal Sonship?

Times have changed, thankfully, but there was a time when the Church would have persons who taught against the doctrine of eternal Sonship arrested, tried and - if they refused to recant - executed.

It hasn’t happened often in my personal experience but it has happened on occasion that some Jews have told me that they reject Jesus because Christian teaching about Jesus isn’t consistent, even among Christians.

 

[Matthias]

A reason some Jews don’t accept Jesus -> resurrection denial; they believe he’s dead.

 

[Wrangler]

@Matthias @Wrangler,
There is an impenetrable wall between us. Our conversations are futile and I knew that long ago, but carried on for the sake of others reading through this thread.
So I must bid you farewell, God Bless.
No hard feelings I hope.

No hard feelings.

The "impenetrable wall between us" is due to your willful ignorance, stubbornly disregarding verses that don't fit your doctrine. You ask a question.

So what is your take on Hebrews 1:8?

Then, completely disregard the validity of the answer.

1st of all, I don't take V8 out of context. By the time Hebrews was written, Jesus was well established in other Apostolic writing as the son of God, the Messiah, the Christ, anointed by God to be the sacrifice of the world. This is re-iterated in Hebrews 1:1-2 where God spoke to us through his son. This opening is not to be construed as one is the other.

2nd, What this son is like is told in v3, the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature. Again, the son has the glory OF - not is, he has the imprint O - not is.

3rd, Not sure why you just ignore V5, where God called Jesus his son and explicitly referenced the day he created his son. Powerful stuff!

4th, So, by the time we get to v8, Jesus is 'of God' - servant, lamb, son, prophet, anointed, throne, high priest, sent, told who to say and how to say it, word, etc. It is God's throne, rule at God's will, no matter who sits on it. This is repeated in Revelation, where Jesus sits on God's throne. It doesn't make Daffy Duck God if he sits in the President's chair.

Yes, @Matthias and I have heard all the rationalizations before, such as Hebrews 1:8. Such verses as this and John 1:1 "could" be taken as your exegesis demands but it "could" also be taken in a monotheist way - dictated by the fact that all the authors are monotheists and not trinitarians.

Hence, "impenetrable wall between us." No hard feelings.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Denying the eternal Sonship of the second person of the Trinity is a very serious matter. It is considered by historical orthodox trinitarians to be heretical. MacArthur took a lot of heat over teaching incarnational Sonship and issued a statement acknowledging it as error. He says that he has abandoned incarnational Sonship and now endorses the historical orthodox teaching of eternal Sonship. (See the link provided.)

Has John MacArthur Really Changed His Position on the Sonship of Christ?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

Were you aware of that?

Do you deny the doctrine of eternal Sonship?

Times have changed, thankfully, but there was a time when the Church would have persons who taught against the doctrine of eternal Sonship arrested, tried and - if they refused to recant - executed.

It hasn’t happened often in my personal experience but it has happened on occasion that some Jews have told me that they reject Jesus because Christian teaching about Jesus isn’t consistent, even among Christians.

Oh, for Pete's sake ... can I leave this conversation with my final response. I'll let you have it to chew on.
MacArthur is brilliant, but he gets confused sometimes as we all do. He could have stuck with his original explanation without sacrificing any Triune doctrines at all. This topic is in the realm above which man can fully perceive. We know in part and so you really can't be definitive about it.
But I'll give it one final shot - for you and Wrangler.

You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;
Hebrews 5:5
> What day was that? His birth!

What exactly does the "Son of God" mean? He also has the title of the Son of Man. (meaning His humanity).

Let's back up a bit.
Yahweh (YHWH) of the Old Testament is the Creator.
Now, Jesus, the name given to Him as a human, already existed prior to His birth - scripture confirms that.
Let me make the claim first and then unwrap it: Yahweh became human. He was begotten/born on a specific day and on that day, Yahweh, became a SON. Wait ... what about the Father, isn't He Yahweh? Yes.
Was the pre-incarnate person of the Triune God always a Son? IMHO, no, He was the Second person of the Trinity, Yahweh. He is now referred to as the Son and forever will be. But in eternity past, I don't think so. The reason is because a Son comes from a Father, is created, and the pre-incarnate Jesus was not created,
(according to Orthodox Christianity).

Here we have Yahweh - fully represented:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
The scripture begins with Jesus, but then He is also referred to as Counselor (a title also given to the Holy Spirit), AND GOD, and the FATHER and back again to THE Prince of Peace. This IS HE, YAHWEH.
The Word who dwelt among us is the same as the Word who was with God. The Christ who is found in form as a man is the very one who previously existed in the form of God.
YHWH -- Israel’s national name for God, is the Eternal Creator. But the Jews considered His name too Holy, and so did not utter His name for fear of pronouncing it incorrectly. So they used Adonai (LORD).

YHWH (Yahweh) is written 6800 times. Elohim, (a plural form), is used over 2500 times.
"I am He”, (ego eimi) is the phrase Jesus used to identify Himself among the Jews as the ONE who, How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing. Matt. 23:37-39
The phrase, " I am He" occurs 24 times in John’s Gospel. (John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.)
In Isaiah 41:4, God or Yahweh says: “I, the Lord…I am He.” In Isaiah 43:10 he says “I am He!"
John’s ego eimi (“I am He"), can also be carried back to Exodus 3:14, where God identifies himself as the “I am.” Here we read: “God [Elohim] said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus therefore claimed I AM Yahweh in the flesh.

Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me. (John the Baptist)
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
Malachi. 3:1
From Romans 10:9-10, we understand that Christians will confess that “Jesus is Lord - (the same Adonai of the Old Testament).
Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point—”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. In the Old Testament passage, salvation comes to those who call on the name of Yahweh—

"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear."
Isaiah 45:23
EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO JESUS, THE SAME LORD.

The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 8:13-14
In Romans 9:32-33, Paul quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the “stumbling stone” over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God."
Luke 1:35
Besides the Father ordaining Jesus' sonship on His day of Birth, Gabriel also pronounced Jesus sonship - after that miraculous conception.

To us, He is the Son of God - now and forward into eternity. Before creation we all have additional questions as to what God was doing as well.
That is a mystery. It's higher than my pay grade to discern.
God ( Yahweh) is dwelling in us - that's billions of Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. We are "in Christ", and as the Father is in Him, so is the Father in us as well. We have company.
Someday it will be more clear. Sin has partially caused that defect that prevents us from being fully illuminated. Our future resurrection will enable us to see God as He is soon.

 

[Matthias]

Oh, for Pete's sake ... can I leave this conversation with my final response.

No one is holding a gun to your head.

You offered a study by MacArthur which MacArthur has repudiated. I was curious about your reason for doing that.

I reject the doctrine of eternal Sonship. So did MacArthur.

For those interested, the famous Methodist scholar Adam Clarke also rejected the doctrine of eternal Sonship.

I'll let you have it to chew on.
MacArthur is brilliant, but he gets confused sometimes as we all do. He could have stuck with his original explanation without sacrificing any Triune doctrines at all. This topic is in the realm above which man can fully perceive. We know in part and so you really can't be definitive about it.
But I'll give it one final shot - for you and Wrangler.

You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;
Hebrews 5:5
> What day was that? His birth!

What exactly does the "Son of God" mean? He also has the title of the Son of Man. (meaning His humanity).

Let's back up a bit.
Yahweh (YHWH) of the Old Testament is the Creator.
Now, Jesus, the name given to Him as a human, already existed prior to His birth - scripture confirms that.
Let me make the claim first and then unwrap it: Yahweh became human. He was begotten/born on a specific day and on that day, Yahweh, became a SON. Wait ... what about the Father, isn't He Yahweh? Yes.
Was the pre-incarnate person of the Triune God always a Son? IMHO, no, He was the Second person of the Trinity, Yahweh. He is now referred to as the Son and forever will be. But in eternity past, I don't think so. The reason is because a Son comes from a Father, is created, and the pre-incarnate Jesus was not created,
(according to Orthodox Christianity).

Here we have Yahweh - fully represented:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
The scripture begins with Jesus, but then He is also referred to as Counselor (a title also given to the Holy Spirit), AND GOD, and the FATHER and back again to THE Prince of Peace. This IS HE, YAHWEH.
The Word who dwelt among us is the same as the Word who was with God. The Christ who is found in form as a man is the very one who previously existed in the form of God.
YHWH -- Israel’s national name for God, is the Eternal Creator. But the Jews considered His name too Holy, and so did not utter His name for fear of pronouncing it incorrectly. So they used Adonai (LORD).

YHWH (Yahweh) is written 6800 times. Elohim, (a plural form), is used over 2500 times.
"I am He”, (ego eimi) is the phrase Jesus used to identify Himself among the Jews as the ONE who, How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing. Matt. 23:37-39
The phrase, " I am He" occurs 24 times in John’s Gospel. (John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.)
In Isaiah 41:4, God or Yahweh says: “I, the Lord…I am He.” In Isaiah 43:10 he says “I am He!"
John’s ego eimi (“I am He"), can also be carried back to Exodus 3:14, where God identifies himself as the “I am.” Here we read: “God [Elohim] said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus therefore claimed I AM Yahweh in the flesh.

Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me. (John the Baptist)
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
Malachi. 3:1
From Romans 10:9-10, we understand that Christians will confess that “Jesus is Lord - (the same Adonai of the Old Testament).
Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point—”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. In the Old Testament passage, salvation comes to those who call on the name of Yahweh—

"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear."
Isaiah 45:23
EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO JESUS, THE SAME LORD.

The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 8:13-14
In Romans 9:32-33, Paul quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the “stumbling stone” over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God."
Luke 1:35
Besides the Father ordaining Jesus' sonship on His day of Birth, Gabriel also pronounced Jesus sonship - after that miraculous conception.

To us, He is the Son of God - now and forward into eternity. Before creation we all have additional questions as to what God was doing as well.
That is a mystery. It's higher than my pay grade to discern.
God ( Yahweh) is dwelling in us - that's billions of Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. We are "in Christ", and as the Father is in Him, so is the Father in us as well. We have company.
Someday it will be more clear. Sin has partially caused that defect that prevents us from being fully illuminated. Our future resurrection will enable us to see God as He is soon.

 

[Matthias]

@Ronald David Bruno, what is a mere man?

He didn’t respond (which is fine) and hasn’t defined the phrase (which needs to be done).

Mere man -> a human person.

 

[APAK]

The Pre-incarnate God emptied Himself and was then begotten and named Jesus.
But here is a more in depth study and interesting perspective. Sonship was not eternal. The second person of of the Trinity was not a son prior to His incarnation

The Sonship of Christ

www.romans45.org

Ronald, what is your simple and clear scriptural definition and its usage or application for human person regarding the Greek term ' κένωσις' and Latinized as 'kenosis? It is found of course in Paul's writing to the Philippians.

Can we perform this action or it is exclusively an act performed by one deity for sole purpose of elevating and glorifying other deities of the same equality, although of quite different personalities?

 

[Jim B]

Is anyone interested in discussing the OP subject?

 

[Matthias]

Is anyone interested in discussing the OP subject?

Yes. What are some other reasons which have not been brought forward yet? Which reasons that have been brought forward would you like to discuss in greater detail?