But it IS... the point I have been addressing, to which YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL TO REPLY TO, running away from it like a coward chicken.
Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul
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But it IS... the point I have been addressing, to which YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL TO REPLY TO, running away from it like a coward chicken.
If that's all there is, then why will Jesus REFUSE those believers of Matthew 7 that prophesied in His name, and cast out demons in His name, and did many wonderful works in His name?
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
The only reason you say that is because you aren't given to understand a lot of the Scriptures yourself.
So anyone... who comes up to you and directly quotes Bible Scripture, like you tried to do, means you don't understand it yourself, because IF YOU DID, then you would have understood exactly why I have been showing directly from Jesus' Own Words that a pre-trib rapture theory is a GROSS FALSEHOOD...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
For those who think they can claim ignorance about that Matthew 24:29 verse above, where Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", if they even TRY to claim that is not what that phrase means, then they are a LIAR and the Truth is not in them.
Believing what Jesus said there about His coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days, and gathering His saints at that time, is equal to believing on Him and the Witness of His Apostles.
Only an 'antichrist' would reject what He said there and instead try... to discredit anyone who quotes what He said as written.
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You started it, bragging as if you really thinking you're something when you are not, trying to discredit those who stay in the SIMPLICITY of God's Word and that speak it plainly.
Yes, lack of uplifting, edifying, and encouraging dialogue is why I rarely visit - I have posted my
view, but the 'pat' response is always the same = "my belief is dangerous to my soul." Thus, no
edifying dialogue, so, I will unwatch, stay away, but never-the-less I do pray alot...
Amen.
Not the way to do it Davy-yelling and calling others liars despite your dogmatism-and me an intellectual-a backhand compliment? Perhaps?
Pro_4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
More power to you.
Johann.
I can honestly say to you-I don't have one ounce of pride when it comes to Scriptures-all boasting excluded-all for the glory of Christ Jesus-Him alone-but I am getting kind of sick to my stomach of "Christians" weapon- zing other "Christians" with Scriptures-and guess what-our warfare is NOT against flesh and blood.
You insult me when you say I'm "bragging" re the Scriptures-God forbid!
Have a nice day brother.
Johann.
But you do understand that Johann's words you quoted is a mockery of those not willing to converse with him on an 'intellectual' basis?
Johann said:
"I believe the brother or sister knows what you are "getting at" but you are incapable of holding a intellectual, edifying dialogue."
That kind of statement is a direct insult upon one's intelligence.
I'm not YELLING. I am STRESSING points in Bible Scripture. If you don't like it, stop reading it.
I can empathize with you Grace.
Remain strong, rooted and grounded in Christ-this race is almost finished.
Shalom to you and family
Johann.
This quote by YOU reveals you have TOO MUCH PRIDE IN YOURSELF...
Johann said:
"I believe the brother or sister knows what you are "getting at" but you are incapable of holding a intellectual, edifying dialogue."
It will be a while before you'll live those words down.
And I also remember what ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen listed in 1958 about one of the Soviet Communist's long-range strategy against the West with infiltrating the Christian Churches...
"27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”
The 45 Communist Goals - Congressional Record 1963
Willard Cleon Skousen wrote The Naked Communist. His 45 Communist Goals were later read into the Congressional Record of 1963. Read it here.
www.hiddendominion.com
You just keep coming back for more and more, and little by little you reveal your falseness for all to see.
And I do not know user @Behold. I have no... Christian brethren that I am a close friend with outside of this forum. But I'll bet YOU have! You probably got a call from @marks or @teamventure to come here on MY THREAD and try to help them out in support of the FALSE pre-trib rapture lies.
What's really funny though, is that you have ONLY attempted to do attacks at credibility, and have NOT provided any Scripture support for a rapture. Now that is a major hint to me about your REAL agenda, which is not about edifying Christian brethren here at all!
For those brethren interested, I put up a new Bible study on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 where Apostle Paul showed that the "man of sin" (the Antichrist) must... come first and be revealed, along with the great apostasy of many of God's people, and then Christ's coming to destroy... that false one at the end.
That proves, not by my word, but by Apostle Paul's words, that the gathering of Christ's 'faithful' Church won't happen until Jesus comes to destroy that false one.
That proves, not by my word, but by Apostle Paul's words, that the gathering of Christ's 'faithful' Church won't happen until Jesus comes to destroy that false one.
This discussion takes in a lot of issues, and I don't mind talking about any of it, as you can see from my many posts on this forum and on the topic.
But I told you, when you get personal again, you shut this down. So considering your words above, that's your choice to not continue.
Have a blessed day!
Much love!
RAPTURE (from 1 Thess. 4:17)
Our theological concept of "rapture" originates from the verb "caught up." "Rapture" is a Latin rendering of the Greek verb in 1 Thess. 4:17 (harpazō – future passive indicative), which implies a forceful "snatching away" (cf. John 6:15; 10:12, 28-29). This event is also mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:51-52.
Many have disagreed about this end-time event.
Some expect a secret rapture of believers (cf. Matt. 24:40-42, which I do not believe is taught in the NT, see my notes online) before a thousand-year reign of Christ upon the earth .
Often a seven-year tribulation period (cf. Dan. 7:25; 9:27) is linked to this. Some theologians have the rapture before, in the middle, or after this seven year period. The order and nature of these end-time events are ambiguous at best. Dogmatism is surely inappropriate here.
Believers are going to meet the Lord in the air, because in the NT the air was seen as the realm of Satan (cf. Eph. 2:2) and Greeks thought the lower air (atmosphere) was unclean and, therefore, the domain of unclean spirits. Believers will be reunited with their Lord in the midst of Satan's kingdom to show its complete overthrow.
1 Thess. 4:17 – "together with them" This church had misunderstood Paul's preaching about the Second Coming. Paul wrote both 1 and 2 Thessalonians to answer these questions. The church wanted to know:
1. Would the Christians who had died participate in these end-time events?
2. When would dead and living believers be reunited? This subject is discussed again in 2 Thess. 2:1.
"in the clouds" – Clouds are the traditional means of the transportation of deity (cf. Dan. 7:13; Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Acts 1:9-11; Rev. 1:7). The image calls to remembrance the Shekinah cloud of the OT exodus experience (cf. Exod. 13:21,22; 14:19,20,24; 16:10; 19:9,16; 24:15,16,18; 34:5; 40:34-38) which symbolizes God's presence with His people.
file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/2019%20Computer%20Bible%20Study%20Library%20--%20English/HTML/special_topics/millenium.html#:~:text=THE%20MILLENNIUM%20(from%20my%20commentary%20of%20Revelation%2020%20online)
-and with this-I'm out of here @Davy since you have turned this into a salvific issue-which it is not.
Remember-we are to "rightly cutting straight the D'var of God"
No need to respond.
Johann.
A further WARNING to my Christian brethren who DO... listen to God in His written Word:
Notice how false ones that are hidden antichrists love to try and attack one's credibility instead of addressing the actual Scriptures.
That shows they are not really interested in what the Word of God says as written. They instead believe God's Word can be manipulated to their aims. They believe it's more important to try and discredit the idea of the revealed Word of God, and those who keep it as written.
So if they can SCARE you, and make you think that someone who is BOLD in teaching The Word of God, then they hope you will turn away not only from that bold teacher in God's Word, but even the actual 'written' Word of God also. So BEWARE of the subtlety of the serpent and his vipers.
Jesus speaking...
Matt 23:29-35
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
KJV
Notice how false ones that are hidden antichrists love to try and attack one's credibility instead of addressing the actual Scriptures.
That shows they are not really interested in what the Word of God says as written. They instead believe God's Word can be manipulated to their aims. They believe it's more important to try and discredit the idea of the revealed Word of God, and those who keep it as written.
So if they can SCARE you, and make you think that someone who is BOLD in teaching The Word of God, then they hope you will turn away not only from that bold teacher in God's Word, but even the actual 'written' Word of God also. So BEWARE of the subtlety of the serpent and his vipers.
Jesus speaking...
Matt 23:29-35
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
KJV
You'll have to put your money where your mouth is, if you intend to convince me. And by the way, that's an expression in case you are not aware.
A fair address-response to my having posted the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture (more than once), on this thread. And that means addressing that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." that Jesus Himself said.
That reveals you aren't really certain what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thess.4. Reason is, because there's 2 separate groups of saints being gathered there per that 1 Thess.4 chapter, and only one of them are actually "caught up" to Jesus as written there (using Paul's expression for Greek harpazo translated in the KJV).
So now you're going to give multitudes of 'on the otherhand junk' which doesn't help one bit in understanding the Scripture as written? See what your attempt at intellectualism does for you? You can't even stay on topic. Now you're more worried about what 'others' have believed. The matter is what does God's Word 'as written' say.
Now if we can read a technical guide on theory of flight (which I have), surely we can read easy to understand words and get the gist of what is being said in simple English (or any other language The Bible is translated to).
The fact of 1 Thessalonians 4, is that it does NOT... give the timing when those events will happen. There is NO Imminent idea expressed there, nor reference to before or after the tribulation Jesus warned us about. However, 1 Thess.4 does... link to other Bible Scripture that does give the timing...
It is in Jesus Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Jesus taught there the gathering of His saints involving those two separate groups, one that Paul says He will bring with Him from Heaven when He comes, and the other group that is still alive on earth that will be "caught up" to Him and them. Both examples there point to AFTER that tribulation when He will come and gather those saints.
Once again, you're more concerned about cataloguing what others believe how it is rather than making a solid stance in teaching what is actually 'written' there. Some would call that wishy-washy.
And coming at the 'actual' meaning of the written Scripture certainly is NOT any idea of "Dogmatism". Could someone in the military following a guide on how to safe a weapon be called "Dogmatism"? Of course not, so your use of such terms upon those who are... certain of what the Scripture is teaching just does not work. God's Word is about accuracy of Truth, even with all the parables, metaphors, and allegories it uses.
Zechariah 14 reveals where... Christ Jesus is coming to, on earth, bringing all His saints with Him. It will be to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth, where He ascended to Heaven from. That Scripture FACT should never be left out of a teaching of 1 Thess.4 and the 'harpazo' event.
Furthermore, the 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Scripture by Paul reveals the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes will be 'changed' on the "last trump". That "last trump" means the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Revelation 11, which points to the end of the tribulation. The 'change' Paul speaks of is about the change to our "spiritual body". And Paul said Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him, which means from Heaven, as they too will already be in their spiritual bodies per 2 Corinthians 5. Isaiah 25 reveals that not only will Christ's saints be changed on that last day, but so will all the wicked that are alive too. And in John 5:28-29 Jesus showed both the Just and the unjust will come forth on that day of His coming to their respective resurrection type.
I haven't turned it into anything other than a valid DEFENSE of the actual written Word of God.
Pre-tribbers, and YOU... have wrongly come here to ATTACK the very Word of God that I have revealed on this thread that DISPROVES the false pre-trib rapture theory from men. And instead of addressing how God's written Word disproves such a false theory, yal have instead tried to turn your attack upon me PERSONALLY. I in turn have revealed yal's hypocrisy, so of course you don't like it.
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