PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

We are not ignorant of that any more than we are ignorant that He created the heavens and earth, and that He is eternal with no beginning or end etc etc. That has zero do do with specific time prophesies given for men who know a year and a month and a day as exactly that.

 

[dad]

If you think Jesus was saying that fire will only come down on part of the world rather than the entire world when He comes again (per Luke 17:26-29), then what do you think He was saying here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

False. He lands on the mount of Olives and it is not burned at all! He rules nations that are alive! The flood never destroyed Noah and His return to earth will only destroy the wicked. Not the planet.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

First, Jesus pointed out that "heaven and earth will pass away" and indicated that no one knows when that day will occur except for the Father. Then He said regarding unbelievers in Noah's day "they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.". He was clearly implying that the destruction that will occur when He returns will be global. It will kill all unbelievers on the earth just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day.

Nowhere does it say that the earth will vanish when He returns.

Mat 24: 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The time when the new earth and heavens are created is very clearly after the 1000 years are over.

That is what Peter taught here as well:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

That reservation is for after the 1000 years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
....
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

That new heaven and earth was not before the thousand years. Clearly. Not even an issue.

What both Jesus and Peter indicated is that people would be just doing the things they normally do and have always done while scoffing at the promise of Christ's second coming, and then the heavens and the earth will be destroyed.

There you go globbing things together and hyper conflating again. The time before when Jesus and us come back to earth to rule it and He destroys the wicked is not the time when the planet is destroyed completely.

God's wrath will come down on all these scoffers who deny Christ and think they are safe from God's wrath. To try and say the fire will only affect part of the earth contradicts what Jesus Himself and what Peter taught will happen.

God's wrath is the Tribulation as well as His return to deal with the wicked and dispose of them. It is after that when we rule the nations.

 

[dad]

If you think Jesus was saying that fire will only come down on part of the world rather than the entire world when He comes again (per Luke 17:26-29), then what do you think He was saying here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

He was not saying the heaven and earth would cease to exist when He returned to rule here. What nations did you think we ruled over? Why would we need to have an iron rule? That is not in the new earth and heaven!

That is what Peter taught here as well:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Those last days are before He returns to earth. The reservation for total fire is at the end of the 1000 years we rule with Him here. Only after the 1000 years is the earth burned with fire from heaven totally and a new heaven and earth made.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. He lands on the mount of Olives and it is not burned at all! He rules nations that are alive! The flood never destroyed Noah and His return to earth will only destroy the wicked. Not the planet.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Why did you not address what I said? Do you just ignore Matthew 24:35-39 then? As for Revelation 19:15, that is a reference to this:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

This does not give an impression of Him ruling nations that are alive, it gives an impression of Him breaking/destroying the heathen (unbelievers). The descriptions of Him smiting the nations (heathen) and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" give that impression as well.

Nowhere does it say that the earth will vanish when He returns.

Mat 24: 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

It won't vanish when He returns, it will be burned up and renewed as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

The time when the new earth and heavens are created is very clearly after the 1000 years are over.

I agree. But that is when He will return. It won't vanish when He returns, it will be burned up and renewed as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12. The current heavens and earth will pass away in that sense and the new heavens and new earth will then appear.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

That reservation is for after the 1000 years.

I agree. But what you don't understand is that He will return after the thousand years. Can you see in 2 Peter 3:3-7 that the punishment by fire is God's wrath that will come down against His enemies such as those scoffers who scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming? How can that fire come down upon any second coming scoffers if it doesn't actually come down until 1,000+ years AFTER He returns? That doesn't make any sense.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
....
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

That new heaven and earth was not before the thousand years. Clearly. Not even an issue.

No one is saying that the new heavens and new earth appear before the thousand years. Those verses are describing what will happen after the thousand years when Christ returns.

There you go globbing things together and hyper conflating again.

LOL. I guess my doctrine is too simple for you. You prefer things to be more convoluted, apparently.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He was not saying the heaven and earth would cease to exist when He returned to rule here.

What do you think He was saying when He said "heaven and earth will pass away"? He related the timing of that directly to the timing of His second coming in Matthew 24:35-39 and He indicated that no one knows the day or hour it will happen.

What nations did you think we ruled over?

None. The prophecy has to do with Him breaking/destroying the heathen (unbelievers).

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Why would we need to have an iron rule? That is not in the new earth and heaven!

Your understanding of this is completely flawed. It's obvious to me that you have never even read the original prophecy (Psalm 2:7-9) that this is based on.

Those last days are before He returns to earth. The reservation for total fire is at the end of the 1000 years we rule with Him here. Only after the 1000 years is the earth burned with fire from heaven totally and a new heaven and earth made.

You're not even attempting to look at the context of 2 Peter 3:3-7. The context is in relation to God's wrath coming against people like those who scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming. How can the fire come down on any second coming scoffers if it doesn't even come down until 1,000+ years after He returns (and therefore 1,000+ years after any second coming scoffers have been alive)?

 

[Keraz]

The context is in relation to God's wrath coming against people like those who scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming. How can the fire come down on any second coming scoffers if it doesn't even come down until 1,000+ years after He returns (and therefore 1,000+ years after any second coming scoffers have been alive)?

The fire, as described by 2 Peter 3 and in 70 + other Prophesies, will happen BEFORE Jesus Returns, to reign for the next thousand years. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4

How anybody can think that we are in the Millennium now, is incredible. Is the world like Isaiah 2:1-6?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fire, as described by 2 Peter 3 and in 70 + other Prophesies, will happen BEFORE Jesus Returns, to reign for the next thousand years. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4

No, that is not possible because 2 Peter 3:10-12 clearly describes the burning up of the entire earth (it even says "everything will be destroyed".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Your doctrine contradicts this passage.

Another thing to point out is that what is described here will happen "in keeping with his promise". Which promise? The promise of His return that the scoffers scoff at in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

How anybody can think that we are in the Millennium now, is incredible.

It's incredible to me that anyone can think otherwise when you consider what scripture actually teaches about when Christ reigns and how many resurrection events and judgment days there will be (just one).

Is the world like Isaiah 2:1-6?

Why are you interpreting Isaiah 2:1-6 in such a wooden literal way? That passage is undeniably a reference to "the last days".

Isaiah 2:1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.....

Do you somehow not know that the last days had already started by the time the day of Pentecost and the first pouring out of the Holy Spirit occurred long ago?

Acts 2:
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

So, the last days began long ago already and, according to Peter, they lead up to the return of Christ because he indicated that in the last days there would be scoffers scoffing at the promise of His return.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

So, are you interpreting Isaiah 2:1-6 while keeping in mind that the last days basically cover the time period from the first to the second coming of Christ? It doesn't appear that you are.

 

[Zao is life]

The rapture or our gathering to the Lord does not occur until after the the falling away and after the Antichrist seats himself in Jerusalem displaying himself as God.

I agree with what you are saying about the rapture, but not with the above. The word used is naos and whenever that word is used for the temple of God, it's referring to the actual sanctuary of God|holy place|place where the Spirit of God dwells, and the last time the word is associated with the Jerusalem temple is in the verses in the three synoptic gospels which tell us about the tearing of the veil in that temple.

After this the word is only used in reference to the bodies of believers as a temple, and to the church as the temple, and to the heavenly temple in the Revelation.

Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city. The Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city 3 times, but never calls Babylon the Great the holy city, nor the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified, nor the cities of the nations that fall in the 7th vial of wrath - only New Jerusalem, and the temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2 is also called the naos.

 

[dad]

Why did you not address what I said? Do you just ignore Matthew 24:35-39 then? As for Revelation 19:15, that is a reference to this:

I didn't. I pointed out that the destruction of the planet was at the end of the 1000 years as the bible verse I quoted said. Why did you ignore it?

As for rev 19 the verse says this


Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

That makes it clear that there will be nations that are alive. Being ruled. That has zero to do with the new heaven and earth and this one passing away!

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

This does not give an impression of Him ruling nations that are alive, it gives an impression of Him breaking/destroying the heathen (unbelievers). The descriptions of Him smiting the nations (heathen) and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" give that impression as well.

As above the wrath has to do with judging the nations. Not wiping out the planet.

It won't vanish when He returns, it will be burned up and renewed as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

That is after the 1000 years. Not a second before. Certainly not when we return to earth to rule here!

I agree. But that is when He will return. It won't vanish when He returns, it will be burned up and renewed as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12. The current heavens and earth will pass away in that sense and the new heavens and new earth will then appear.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The new heaven and earth come after the 1000 years as the verses I posted show clearly.

I agree. But what you don't understand is that He will return after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
You do not come after the party is over to rule a thousand years!

Can you see in 2 Peter 3:3-7 that the punishment by fire is God's wrath that will come down against His enemies such as those scoffers who scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming? How can that fire come down upon any second coming scoffers if it doesn't actually come down until 1,000+ years AFTER He returns? That doesn't make any sense.

There is also fire when He and we return to earth. Not the sort of planet wide fire that destroys all life though!

No one is saying that the new heavens and new earth appear before the thousand years. Those verses are describing what will happen after the thousand years when Christ returns.

So if we rule with Him a thousand years, you really think that is after the thousand years??

 

[dad]

What do you think He was saying when He said "heaven and earth will pass away"? He related the timing of that directly to the timing of His second coming in Matthew 24:35-39 and He indicated that no one knows the day or hour it will happen.

False. He mentioned it would pass away, but no timing there was discussed at all.

None. The prophecy has to do with Him breaking/destroying the heathen (unbelievers).

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Yes I did read it. He will break the nations and rule.

You're not even attempting to look at the context of 2 Peter 3:3-7. The context is in relation to God's wrath coming against people like those who scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming. How can the fire come down on any second coming scoffers if it doesn't even come down until 1,000+ years after He returns (and therefore 1,000+ years after any second coming scoffers have been alive)?

The context is that creation and the flood are mentioned.


2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then he mentions the day when the earth and universe we know are reserved to pass away. We know when that is. After the 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't. I pointed out that the destruction of the planet was at the end of the 1000 years as the bible verse I quoted said. Why did you ignore it?

Why are you lying? I didn't ignore it. I don't ignore any scripture. I also agree that the destruction of earth happens after the thousand years, so what is your point here?

As for rev 19 the verse says this


Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

That makes it clear that there will be nations that are alive. Being ruled. That has zero to do with the new heaven and earth and this one passing away!

Read it again. And keep Psalm 2:7-9 in mind this time. You know, the Old Testament passage that is being referenced here? The one that talks about Jesus breaking/destroying the heathen? Do you think it's not important to reference that passage for context? Even the Rev 19:15 verse itself shows the context. It's clearly a description of destruction, not ruling anyone. That's what smiting the nations (heathen) and treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God is all about: complete destruction.

As above the wrath has to do with judging the nations. Not wiping out the planet.

Again, do you think it's not important to reference the Old Testament prophecy itself to see the context of what is being said in the passage alluding to it? Psalm 2:7-9 talks about Jesus breaking/destroying the heathen with a rod of iron. That's a picture of destruction, not of ruling the nations on earth they way you imagine.

That is after the 1000 years. Not a second before. Certainly not when we return to earth to rule here!

The new heaven and earth come after the 1000 years as the verses I posted show clearly.

Are you reading anything that I'm saying? I too believe that the new heaven and new earth come after the thousand years. That is not what we are debating here. The difference is that I believe Christ returns after the thousand years and you don't.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
You do not come after the party is over to rule a thousand years!


There is also fire when He and we return to earth. Not the sort of planet wide fire that destroys all life though!

How do you come to that conclusion? The following passage is a reference to His second coming:

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Notice that Peter is telling his readers that they "ought to live holy and godly lives as" we "look forward to the day of God and speed its coming". In your view what Peter said there can't possibly apply to us today or to any believers in the past who read that. Is that the impression that Peter is giving, that only people who read that a long time (1,000 years) after Christ returns should concern themselves with living godly lives while looking forward to the day of the Lord?

Also, in verse 13 there Peter said that the new heavens and new earth will come about "in keeping with his promise". Which promise? The promise of His second coming that Peter had alluded to earlier in 2 Peter 3:4. Why are you looking forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in keeping with the promise of His second coming when Peter said we should be looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in keeping with the promise of His second coming?

So if we rule with Him a thousand years, you really think that is after the thousand years??

Of course not. You need to read what I'm saying more carefully since I'm not saying that at all. Jesus reigns now and we are priests in His kingdom now, as the following passage indicates:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. He mentioned it would pass away, but no timing there was discussed at all.

Sure, there was. You need to learn to read scripture objectively rather than with doctrinal bias.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Which "day or hour" was Jesus talking about that no one knows except for the Father? The day or hour that the heavens and earth pass away. How can you say the timing wasn't discussed in light of this? Yes, it was. And Jesus didn't change the subject after that verse. He proceeded to describe what would happen when that day or hour arrived. He would come and destroy all unbelievers just as all unbelievers were destroyed by the flood in Noah's day. This lines up exactly with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-7.

Yes I did read it. He will break the nations and rule.

The word break there means destroy. So, how exactly will He rule over nations that He has broken/destroyed?

The context is that creation and the flood are mentioned.


2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Then he mentions the day when the earth and universe we know are reserved to pass away. We know when that is. After the 1000 years.

Yes, it will be after the thousand years. You say that as if I disagree with that. How many times do I have to tell you that I agree with that? That is not where we differ. We differ in our understanding of when Christ returns in relation to the thousand years and we differ in that I believe heaven and earth will be destroyed when He returns after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) while you believe it won't happen until 1,000+ years later.

 

[dad]

Why are you lying? I didn't ignore it. I don't ignore any scripture. I also agree that the destruction of earth happens after the thousand years, so what is your point here?

If you agree the new earth is after the 1000 years then what is your point?

Read it again. And keep Psalm 2:7-9 in mind this time. You know, the Old Testament passage that is being referenced here? The one that talks about Jesus breaking/destroying the heathen? Do you think it's not important to reference that passage for context? Even the Rev 19:15 verse itself shows the context. It's clearly a description of destruction, not ruling anyone. That's what smiting the nations (heathen) and treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God is all about: complete destruction.

Yes first He breaks them then He takes over and rules. You do not rule people that you just disintegrated into nothing on a burned out planet. This is news?

Again, do you think it's not important to reference the Old Testament prophecy itself to see the context of what is being said in the passage alluding to it? Psalm 2:7-9 talks about Jesus breaking/destroying the heathen with a rod of iron. That's a picture of destruction, not of ruling the nations on earth they way you imagine.

No. Breaking them is needed to rule. Not like they will vote for Jesus. There are still nations after the wicked are destroyed at His coming. This is news? If the world were fried to a crisp that would not be the case.

Are you reading anything that I'm saying? I too believe that the new heaven and new earth come after the thousand years. That is not what we are debating here. The difference is that I believe Christ returns after the thousand years and you don't.

The thousand years is after he returns. The Tribulation is before and right after that tribulation He returns to earth.

How do you come to that conclusion? The following passage is a reference to His second coming:

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The day of the Lord includes a lot of stuff. Basically everything after the Rapture until the end of the 1000 years.

Notice that Peter is telling his readers that they "ought to live holy and godly lives as" we "look forward to the day of God and speed its coming". In your view what Peter said there can't possibly apply to us today or to any believers in the past who read that. Is that the impression that Peter is giving, that only people who read that a long time (1,000 years) after Christ returns should concern themselves with living godly lives while looking forward to the day of the Lord?

No. We all should be ready. The wrath is before and when He returns. Not during the 1000 years. By the time He returns and the 1000 years start people better be ready. Not after!

Also, in verse 13 there Peter said that the new heavens and new earth will come about "in keeping with his promise". Which promise? The promise of His second coming that Peter had alluded to earlier in 2 Peter 3:4. Why are you looking forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in keeping with the promise of His second coming when Peter said we should be looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in keeping with the promise of His second coming?

No. The promise of eternity and a new heavens and earth. That could not possibly fit the tribulation or the 1000 years. No way at all.

Of course not. You need to read what I'm saying more carefully since I'm not saying that at all. Jesus reigns now and we are priests in His kingdom now, as the following passage indicates:

Jesus reigns now? Maybe call Him and ask what Biden and Trudeau and others are doing? Jesus is coming back and will be here in the flesh to rule the whole world. There will be no mistaking that.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus physically ruling the world falls under the 'herafter' category.

 

[The Light]

AWESOME

What else you coming UP with these days.............like how many raptures? = me thinks 24, like the 24 Elders

The bridegroom is at the door. There are wise virgins and foolish virgins. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. You will find that out shortly.

 

[David in NJ]

The bridegroom is at the door. There are wise virgins and foolish virgins. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. You will find that out shortly.

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression,
to put an end to sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy = Revelation
and to anoint the Most Holy Place. = Hebrews 4:14 , 5:7-10 , 6:19-20 , CHAPTERS 8 & 9

By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

We entered the 70th Week when Messiah was cut-off/crucified and Rose from the dead and then Ascended back to the FATHER.

 

[Davy]

Paul addressed the Pretribulation Rapture teachers in 2Th 2:1-5. When someone told the Thessalonians the rapture was at hand or could happen at any moment, the Thessalonians became confused about what Paul taught them. The fellow who said this was a Pretribulation Rapture teacher because when he said the rapture could happen at any moment the Antichrist had not yet emerged on the scene. In other words, he was teaching the rapture occurs before the Antichrist rises to power. In order for the Thessalonians to become confused about what Paul taught them they must have esteemed the Pretribulation Rapture teacher as Pastors are esteemed by believers today; otherwise the believers would not have taken him seriously. When Paul heard about this he wrote the letter recorded in 2Th. 2:1-5 and told the Thessalonians not to listen to the Pretribulation Rapture teacher because the rapture or our gathering to the Lord does not occur until after the the falling away and after the Antichrist seats himself in Jerusalem displaying himself as God. The scriptures tell us the Antichrist doesn’t seat himself in Jerusalem until 3 1/2 years after he emerges on the scene.

2Th. 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Paul also warned them about fake letters as if from the Apostles...

2 Thess 2:2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

So that reveals the ones that were confusing the time of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church were doing it 'on purpose', even to the point of creating fake letters as if signed by one of the Apostles. Definitely a "tare" having crept in among the Thessalonians.

That actually reveals how long ago a false rapture that did not align with Bible Scripture was being taught by Christ's enemies.

Something else, about that above phrase "the day of Christ". My Strong's Exhaustive Concordance version in my BibleSoft study software has been 'edited', it being a post-1990 edition. Strong's editions prior to 1990 had Dr. Strong's original definitions. So even long after his death, some "tares" got together and decided to edit some of those definitions as to what 'they'... thought Dr. Strong should have said.

The original Greek text for the KJV had the Greek word 'kurios' in that phrase, "the day of Christ", not 'christos'. Greek 'kurios' means 'lord'. Thus Apostle Paul was agreeing with the prophets about "the day of the Lord" being when Jesus returns. Paul taught about the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 5, which aligns with this "the day of Christ" (which is actually "day of the Lord" in the text). Thus even the KJV translators messed up with that phrase in translation when it is actually a very important time marker about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul also warned them about fake letters as if from the Apostles...

2 Thess 2:2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

So that reveals the ones that were confusing the time of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church were doing it 'on purpose', even to the point of creating fake letters signed by one of the Apostles. Definitely a "tare" having crept in among the Thessalonians.

That actually reveals how long ago a false rapture that did not align with Bible Scripture was being taught by Christ's enemies.

Something else, about that above phrase "the day of Christ". My Strong's Exhaustive Concordance version in my BibleSoft study software has been 'edited', it being a post-1990 edition. Strong's editions prior to 1990 had Dr. Strong's original definitions. So even long after his death, some "tares" got together and decided to edit some of those definitions as to what 'they'... thought Dr. Strong should have said.

The original Greek text for the KJV had the Greek word 'kurios' in that phrase, "the day of Christ", not 'christos'. Greek 'kurios' means 'lord'. Thus Apostle Paul was agreeing with the prophets about "the day of the Lord" being when Jesus returns. Paul taught about the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 5, which aligns with this "the day of Christ" (which is actually "day of the Lord" in the text). Thus even the KJV translators messed up with that phrase in translation when it is actually a very important time marker about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.

Every lie that comes out of the mouth of satan, God has it exposed, defeated and covered for us in His Word and the Holy Scriptures.

"God is not the author of confusion"

 

[Davy]

I contradicted nothing. And that is not "the day of the Lord" but "the day of Christ".That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (KJV).

"The day of the Lord (LORD)" is a period of divine judgment, but "the day of Christ" is the day of the coming of Christ for His saints at the Rapture. This corresponds to "our gathering together unto Him" which refers to the Rapture.

FYI, the original Greek text used by the KJV translators has Greek 'kurios' instead of 'christos'. So the correct translation IS... "the day of the Lord".

So what was Paul saying? (a) Firstly there will be an apostasy in the churches before the Rapture and (b) the Antichrist will be revealed before the Rapture. Has the apostasy occurred? We can see it all around us and it keeps getting worse. Has the Antichrist been revealed? Certainly. The agenda of the New World Order and the World Economic Forum is a preview of the reign of the Antichrist. Worldwide tyranny and a global false religion. Which means that "the day of Christ" is very near.

Your idea of the coming "antichrist" is from men's doctrines, NOT The Bible.

In Matthew 24:23-26 Jesus revealed the 'pseudochristos' (pseudo-Christ) as a Sign of the end, which is about a SINGULAR antichrist person, coming to work great signs and wonders so powerful that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. Apostle Paul is speaking of the very same one, as he mentions the "man of sin" working all power and signs and wonders (2 Thess.2:8-9).

So I'd like to see someone try and fit New York and the New World Order into that coming Antichrist individual.

Your fake teachers just don't want you to know that a literal Christ impersonator is coming to play the role of Jesus of Nazareth in the last picture showing of Jesus Christ Superstar, and with the power to work miracles on earth like Lord Jesus did.

Lord Jesus speaking...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The two verses above in 'red' point to a SINGULAR ANTICHRIST person.

The phrase "false Christs" appears to be plural, but is simply Greek 'pseudochristos', made up from 2 Greek words, 'pseudo' which means false, and 'christos' which means Christ.

So even the KJV translators made a mistake there, because those two verses in red are definitely in the SINGULAR tense. And verse 26 even reveals if someone says Christ has returned and is in the "secret chambers", which is pointing to where maybe? Inside some secret chamber area in Jerusalem.

Thus the Antichrist and false one Lord Jesus and His Apostles pointed to is definitely not about some undefinable force or movement, but about an actual person, a false-Messiah. Because it is written about that coming false one playing The Christ, it means the "another Jesus" of 2 Corinthians 11 which Apostle Paul also warned about.

 

[Keraz]

So, are you interpreting Isaiah 2:1-6 while keeping in mind that the last days basically cover the time period from the first to the second coming of Christ? It doesn't appear that you are.

Of course I am not. The 'last days' are not and could not be the entire intra advent period.
The AMill theory is so wrong from all aspects, that belief in it is similar to belief in fairies.

Looking at the dramatic events the Prophets tell about for the last days, we will surely know they have arrived!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course I am not. The 'last days' are not and could not be the entire intra advent period.
The AMill theory is so wrong from all aspects, that belief in it is similar to belief in fairies.

I showed you how Peter indicated that the last days had begun already on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21) and that they lead up to the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4). And you just ignore that. Why? Because you don't care about the truth, you care about selecting the verses that fit your false doctrine, take them out of context and ignore all the scripture that your doctrine contradicts. The concept of interpreting scripture with scripture while avoiding contradictions is clearly foreign to you. The fairy tale here is your doctrine that comes from your imagination.