PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

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The Light

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Correct = People will continue to be SAVED by His Blood right up to His Coming

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

There is no rapture before His Coming = it does not exist in scripture!
Pre-trib rapture is man-made/centered false teaching/prophecy.

There is no 'special lift-off' or elitism in the Body of Christ.
Pre-trib rapture is anti-gospel, anti-scriptural and anti-christ
The Lord comes for the dead in Christ. The barley harvest.
The Lord comes for alive that remain. The wheat harvest.
The Lord comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the fruit harvest.
The Lord comes for the believers of the 12 tribes of the fruit harvest at the 6th seal
The Lord comes at Armageddon.
 

dad

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2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Yes for the Almighty, time is not something that is a big concern for Himself. Time is for us! And prophesy gives times in a precise way. You do not get to say that because the eternal Almighty creator experiences certain things, that this means His word is a pack of symbolic fairy tales. God said if he were hungry He would not ask man for a cow in a field to eat. Do you think that meant you can rustle or take people's goods as well?
 
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dad

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The Lord comes for the dead in Christ. The barley harvest.
The Lord comes for alive that remain. The wheat harvest.
The Lord comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the fruit harvest.
The Lord comes for the believers of the 12 tribes of the fruit harvest at the 6th seal
The Lord comes at Armageddon.
He comes for vengeance when He comes back all the way to earth and the mount of Olives. He brings with Him the dead in Christ He already Raptured several years before this event. The ones who come to believe and are on earth after the church rises in the air to meet Him of course will be people He comes for as well at the return TO the earth. You have glumped it all together in a way that displays a true lack of understanding of the testimony of Jesus, and therefore the spirit of Scripture. For His testimony is the spirit of prophesy. Just like when people do not understand that He is the creator, and imagine that we came from beasts and evolution, they have no real understanding of the bible or God in any depth.

Those who lump prophesy timelines all into a big blob do not get to enjoy the riches and warnings and message of prophesy. For example, they miss the Blessed Hope and comfort of how Jesus is rescuing His bride from this wicked world soon in a real way and in the real air. They miss out on the immense love of God, in that He loves us so much He will not suffer us to be subjected to the ravening beast He let's loose on the world in the end...the wrath of God. They miss out on knowing about that 1000 years when we rule and reign on this earth with Jesus with an iron rule when wicked people and demons will have been destroyed completely off the planet to make way for us! When they see the extreme wickedness that has started to grip the world, they envision that the church will lose and one day the 'devil will get us'. They miss that fact that God will simply say enough is enough, and take us out of their clutches and off the planet, and begin to deal with them in wrath till the end when they lose totally forever!
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes for the Almighty, time is not something that is a big concern for Himself. Time is for us!

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

David in NJ

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The Lord comes for the dead in Christ. The barley harvest.
The Lord comes for alive that remain. The wheat harvest.
The Lord comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the fruit harvest.
The Lord comes for the believers of the 12 tribes of the fruit harvest at the 6th seal
The Lord comes at Armageddon.
AWESOME

What else you coming UP with these days.............like how many raptures? = me thinks 24, like the 24 Elders
 
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dad

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Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Looks like you resorted to parroting cut and paste spam. I think all points have been answered.
 

marks

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The Day of the Lord.

According to Mal 4:5-6 Elijah is one of the two witnesses who will be sent back before the great and terrible day of the Lord. From Rev 11 we know that the two witnesses will appear during the great tribulation period. From this we can conclude that the day of the Lord occurs after the great tribulation period.
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse.”

If you look at the Malachi passage, Elijah will actually succeed in his ministry to restore their hearts to each other, and as Jesus added to this prophecy,

Matthew 17:11 KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Elijah will fulfill his ministry, preparing the way for the LORD, readying the people to receive Jesus when He comes.

The 2 witnesses will prophecy and testify until the beast is given authority, which will then kill them. Until that time they cannot be killed.

Elijah will prepare the bride for her groom, which for me fits much better with him being with the Israelites who will flee to the wilderness, who will be there when Jesus comes a second time.

Much love!
 
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marks

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There is no difference between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord. Other translations even have "the day of the Lord" there instead of "the day of Christ". There is no basis whatsoever for making this distinction. Paul was talking about the day that Christ returns and we're gathered to Him and he was calling that the day of the Lord (or the day of Christ, if you prefer - same thing).

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

First, Paul referenced "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Then, instead of saying all of that again, he simply referred to the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him as "the day of the Lord" (or "the day of Christ"). And then in verse 3 he referred to it as "that day". The context is regarding the day Christ returns and we're gathered to Him. That day when Christ returns and we are gathered to Him will not occur until the rebellion (falling away) occurs and the man of lawlessness (man of sin) is revealed first. That is clearly what Paul was saying in this passage.
In saying "that day", this references "the day of Christ/Day of the LORD" only, it does not reach back to reference "the coming of the Lord, and by our gathering to Him". The real question here is whether or not the "day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" is idiom for our being gathered to Him.

It's not a translation issue, it's a manuscript variation, two completely different words are used in this place in the different manuscripts.

Philippians 1:6 KJV
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Another question is, should "day of Christ" be understood to be the same as the "day of Jesus Christ."

Something I've seen over the years, in these places where sometimes He's called Jesus, and sometimes Jesus Christ, and sometimes Christ, and sometimes the Lord Jesus Christ, I think these are all used with distinct reason. For instance,

Romans 6:8-11 KJV
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Vs. 8 & 9, we be dead with Christ, Christ being raised from the dead, "Christ" speaks to Jesus' annointing to be our Savior. So we are dead with Christ, He rose from the dead, these are the mechanics of our salvation, if you will.

Vs. 11, we are alive unto God through Jesus (the Man Who is our intercessor) Christ (our annointed Savior) our Lord (whom we obey if we are true).

The say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of our believing is in the doing.

Much love!
 
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Johann

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In saying "that day", this references "the day of Christ/Day of the LORD" only, it does not reach back to reference "the coming of the Lord, and by our gathering to Him". The real question here is whether or not the "day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" is idiom for our being gathered to Him.

It's not a translation issue, it's a manuscript variation, two completely different words are used in this place in the different manuscripts.

Philippians 1:6 KJV
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Another question is, should "day of Christ" be understood to be the same as the "day of Jesus Christ."

Something I've seen over the years, in these places where sometimes He's called Jesus, and sometimes Jesus Christ, and sometimes Christ, and sometimes the Lord Jesus Christ, I think these are all used with distinct reason. For instance,

Romans 6:8-11 KJV
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Vs. 8 & 9, we be dead with Christ, Christ being raised from the dead, "Christ" speaks to Jesus' annointing to be our Savior. So we are dead with Christ, He rose from the dead, these are the mechanics of our salvation, if you will.

Vs. 11, we are alive unto God through Jesus (the Man Who is our intercessor) Christ (our annointed Savior) our Lord (whom we obey if we are true).

The say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of our believing is in the doing.

Much love!
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1–6. The Apostle is still treating of the condition and conduct of the believer as determined by his walking in the light; there is no break between the two chapters. Having shewn us that even Christians constantly sin, he goes on (1) to point out the remedy for sin, (2) to exhort us not to sin. The paragraph begins and ends with the latter point, but the former constitutes the chief link with the preceding paragraph: comp. 1Jn_1:7. He who craves to grow in sanctification, and yet is conscious of his own frailty must constantly have recourse to the Advocate and His cleansing blood: thus he will be enabled to obey God more and more perfectly. The consideration of what it has cost to provide a remedy for sin will inspire him with a horror of sin.


That ye may not sin (hina mē hamartēte). Purpose (negative) clause with hina mē and the second aorist (ingressive, commit sin) active subjunctive of hamartanō, to sin. John has no patience with professional perfectionists (1Jn_1:8-10), but he has still less with loose-livers like some of the Gnostics who went to all sorts of excesses without shame.
If any man sin (ean tis hamartēi). Third-class condition with ean and second aorist (ingressive) active subjunctive again, “if one commit sin.”
We have (echomen). Present active indicative of echō in the apodosis, a present reality like echomen in 2Co_5:1.
An advocate (paraklēton). See note on Joh_14:16, and Joh_14:26; and note on Joh_15:26; and Joh_16:7 for this word, nowhere else in the N.T. The Holy Spirit is God’s Advocate on earth with men, while Christ is man’s Advocate with the Father (the idea, but not the word, in Rom_8:31-39; Heb_7:25). As dikaios (righteous) Jesus is qualified to plead our case and to enter the Father’s presence (Heb_2:18).
Robertson

Deep down I know you will not agree here, but this gives me hope brother.
 

David in NJ

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If you look at the Malachi passage, Elijah will actually succeed in his ministry to restore their hearts to each other, and as Jesus added to this prophecy,

Matthew 17:11 KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Elijah will fulfill his ministry, preparing the way for the LORD, readying the people to receive Jesus when He comes.

The 2 witnesses will prophecy and testify until the beast is given authority, which will then kill them. Until that time they cannot be killed.

Elijah will prepare the bride for her groom, which for me fits much better with him being with the Israelites who will flee to the wilderness, who will be there when Jesus comes a second time.

Much love!
The Bride of Christ is in Heaven now.

She will grow in number right up to the Lord's Second Coming.

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice.


"Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead,
that we should bear fruit to God.


Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

And the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!”
And let him who thirsts come.
Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
 
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marks

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1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1–6. The Apostle is still treating of the condition and conduct of the believer as determined by his walking in the light; there is no break between the two chapters. Having shewn us that even Christians constantly sin, he goes on (1) to point out the remedy for sin, (2) to exhort us not to sin. The paragraph begins and ends with the latter point, but the former constitutes the chief link with the preceding paragraph: comp. 1Jn_1:7. He who craves to grow in sanctification, and yet is conscious of his own frailty must constantly have recourse to the Advocate and His cleansing blood: thus he will be enabled to obey God more and more perfectly. The consideration of what it has cost to provide a remedy for sin will inspire him with a horror of sin.


That ye may not sin (hina mē hamartēte). Purpose (negative) clause with hina mē and the second aorist (ingressive, commit sin) active subjunctive of hamartanō, to sin. John has no patience with professional perfectionists (1Jn_1:8-10), but he has still less with loose-livers like some of the Gnostics who went to all sorts of excesses without shame.
If any man sin (ean tis hamartēi). Third-class condition with ean and second aorist (ingressive) active subjunctive again, “if one commit sin.”
We have (echomen). Present active indicative of echō in the apodosis, a present reality like echomen in 2Co_5:1.
An advocate (paraklēton). See note on Joh_14:16, and Joh_14:26; and note on Joh_15:26; and Joh_16:7 for this word, nowhere else in the N.T. The Holy Spirit is God’s Advocate on earth with men, while Christ is man’s Advocate with the Father (the idea, but not the word, in Rom_8:31-39; Heb_7:25). As dikaios (righteous) Jesus is qualified to plead our case and to enter the Father’s presence (Heb_2:18).
Robertson

Deep down I know you will not agree here, but this gives me hope brother.
I don't know what I wouldn't agree with, maybe this, "Having shewn us that even Christians constantly sin,", I don't think it's necessarily true that Christians constantly sin.

But maybe what you are talking about is more easily answered, I don't think we are qualified to even know if we've "stopped sinning" or not. And I put that in quotes because even if IF someone thinks they didn't sin today, or this week, they have no idea about what will happen tomorrow. So how can you say you've stopped?

And what I think is this. Someone who says they've ceased from all sin, either they themselves believe it, or they don't. Some don't, they just feel that they have to say that or they will be looked down on. Those who actually believe it, well, not even Paul himself was prepared to make that claim. So how are we to? I don't consider myself greater than Paul!!

Like you've pointed out . . . we currently have an Advocate, and that for a reason!

Much love!
 
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Johann

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I don't know what I wouldn't agree with, maybe this, "Having shewn us that even Christians constantly sin,", I don't think it's necessarily true that Christians constantly sin.
yes, not even I "constantly keep on sinning"-not living in a state of continual, habitual never ending sinning-if that be the case, I am not reborn-just the inner battle in my mind, as I read Romans 7-8, so you are correct re this statement brother, wrong wording.
Shalom
Johann.
 
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No Pre-TB

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You can stay down here, as you seem to need it.

I wont be down here, as Im a part of the Bride, and Jesus didn't save His Bride to turn them over to Satan in the Trib.

Im in Chapter 19
Have you not read Revelation 19? The bride isnt even ready to wear the white linen till Christ begins to reign, at the 7th trumpet. Which, I may add, is at the end. Have you never read that we resurrect at the last day? We are never promised Heaven (God's throne), we are only promised paradise, a well watered park.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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We first meet Him in the air, get our new bodies, and then He takes us to the Father's house. No one who knows Scripture would imagine that His Father's house is at cloud level on earth. Like Jesus went up into the clouds, and went then to His Father's house also!
Your belief is based on speculation rather than on scripture. There is no scripture which says we will be taken to heaven when He returns. What is the point of meeting Him in the air if we will then be taken to heaven? Why not just be taken directly to heaven to meet Him there if that's where we were going to end up (we're not)?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, lots of fire and judgment even when we return too rule here. Then at the end of the 1000 years, the world is burned and a new one made. The worlldwide burn obviously is not during or before we rule here.

Sodom was burned not the world. So shall it be when Jesus comes, a limited burn at first.
If you think Jesus was saying that fire will only come down on part of the world rather than the entire world when He comes again (per Luke 17:26-29), then what do you think He was saying here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

First, Jesus pointed out that "heaven and earth will pass away" and indicated that no one knows when that day will occur except for the Father. Then He said regarding unbelievers in Noah's day "they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.". He was clearly implying that the destruction that will occur when He returns will be global. It will kill all unbelievers on the earth just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day.

That is what Peter taught here as well:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

What both Jesus and Peter indicated is that people would be just doing the things they normally do and have always done while scoffing at the promise of Christ's second coming, and then the heavens and the earth will be destroyed. God's wrath will come down on all these scoffers who deny Christ and think they are safe from God's wrath. To try and say the fire will only affect part of the earth contradicts what Jesus Himself and what Peter taught will happen.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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In saying "that day", this references "the day of Christ/Day of the LORD" only, it does not reach back to reference "the coming of the Lord, and by our gathering to Him".
Yes, it does, and that is obvious. The day of Christ/day of the Lord references the day of the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him. He didn't mention the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him only to change the subject in the very next verse. That makes no sense whatsoever.

The real question here is whether or not the "day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" is idiom for our being gathered to Him.
Of course it is. We can see that when reading 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9 as well.

It's not a translation issue, it's a manuscript variation, two completely different words are used in this place in the different manuscripts.

Philippians 1:6 KJV
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Another question is, should "day of Christ" be understood to be the same as the "day of Jesus Christ."
Of course it should. There is no basis for differentiating between the two. This is reminding me of the user Taken trying to claim that being "in Jesus" and being "in Christ" are two different things, which is ludicrous.

Something I've seen over the years, in these places where sometimes He's called Jesus, and sometimes Jesus Christ, and sometimes Christ, and sometimes the Lord Jesus Christ, I think these are all used with distinct reason. For instance,

Romans 6:8-11 KJV
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Vs. 8 & 9, we be dead with Christ, Christ being raised from the dead, "Christ" speaks to Jesus' annointing to be our Savior. So we are dead with Christ, He rose from the dead, these are the mechanics of our salvation, if you will.

Vs. 11, we are alive unto God through Jesus (the Man Who is our intercessor) Christ (our annointed Savior) our Lord (whom we obey if we are true).

The say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of our believing is in the doing.
This comes across as you trying to go to any length to find a way to support your doctrine.
 
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