22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Taken]

LOL. The pure nonsense continues from you. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Jesus is the Christ. You're acting like Jesus and Christ are not the same or something.

God has NUMEROUS names and TITLES.
(And so do men!)

Names and Titles of God Distinguish WHOM OF God is DOING WHAT.
(And the with men!)

Not EVERYONE calls you by the same NAME, or same TITLE.
Your spouse calls you by names, titles….that co-workers, your children, neighbors, even posters on this forum….do not….and visa versa.

When SPECIFIC Names and Titles are used to Identify God, the Word of God, the Power of God….and you mix and jumble those names and titles….YOU are confounding Gods Order and Way He presents His Knowledge.

You CAN KNOW the Lord God Almighty IS ONE…..YET when Gods Word delineates …. (Such as….THE WORD OF GOD…IS JESUS
And THE POWER OF GOD….IS CHRIST) the delineation IS paramount, important to keep in Gods ORDER, and not rewrite Gods word…
AS IF….you are better suited to speak FOR God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ruler of kings of the earth…..?
…kings of the earth are mortal men…
Really, you think Christ Jesus is ruling over the kings of the earth NOW?
LOL…Not hardly.

There is something very seriously wrong with you. John very specifically called Jesus "the ruler of the kings of the earth". Present tense. Do you think John didn't know what he was talking about?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

It does not say that He will one day be "the ruler of the kings of the earth", it says He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth.

The kings of this earth are all in a CORRUPT LEAGUE (ie the UN), one with the other, plotting and devising Agendas to KILL the Majority of the world’s population…..And you think Jesus IS RULING OVER THEM, “doing nothing about their corruption”?

Your understanding of His ruling is flawed. They can't do anything without Him allowing it. Do you think He doesn't have authority over them? He most certainly does. He can allow them to be corrupt now if He wants while knowing that He will physically destroy them if He returns in their lifetimes or at least will resurrect, punish and condemn them to the lake of fire at that time.

You are in error. Christ Jesus has NOT YET, claimed His Inheritance (Land and Kingdom and Throne) and IS NOT presently ruling over the kings of the Earth.

John said He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth". Why do you not want to accept what John taught?

Your understanding of what it means to rule is flawed. It's wrong to think that someone can't be ruling unless everyone is obeying them. Think of it this way. In a sense the President of the United States rules/governs over all the people of the United States. Right? And that is the case whether people agree with his policies or a breaking U.S. laws or not, right? Of course. So, similarly, Jesus is ruling over all people right now whether they are obeying and acknowledging Him or not. His rule is not dependent on everyone obeying Him. If that was the case, then no king/ruler/leader in history has ever ruled up to this point.

His Inheritance is established…..just as men establish who they shall give an inheritance to……However an inheritance is not in possession of the “one who SHALL inherit” Until they Receive it!

Presently Christ Jesus IS HEAD OVER HIS CHURCH, which consists of men on Earth, Converted “IN” Christ, and departed souls and spirits of men who bodily died “IN” Christ.

Yes, that's true, but scripture also says that God the Father placed ALL THINGS under His feet in the present age.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God has NUMEROUS names and TITLES.
(And so do men!)

Names and Titles of God Distinguish WHOM OF God is DOING WHAT.
(And the with men!)

Not EVERYONE calls you by the same NAME, or same TITLE.
Your spouse calls you by names, titles….that co-workers, your children, neighbors, even posters on this forum….do not….and visa versa.

When SPECIFIC Names and Titles are used to Identify God, the Word of God, the Power of God….and you mix and jumble those names and titles….YOU are confounding Gods Order and Way He presents His Knowledge.

You CAN KNOW the Lord God Almighty IS ONE…..YET when Gods Word delineates …. (Such as….THE WORD OF GOD…IS JESUS
And THE POWER OF GOD….IS CHRIST) the delineation IS paramount, important to keep in Gods ORDER, and not rewrite Gods word…
AS IF….you are better suited to speak FOR God.

LOL. Being in Christ and being in Jesus are the same thing and everyone here but you knows that. I'm not wasting any more time with this extreme nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mortal people do not INHERIT Gods Kingdom, nor Christ’s Kingdom.

Mortal (believing) people shall occupy their own earthly nations, under their own mortal kings, WHILE Christ Jesus shall occupy His Earthly Kingdom, as KING of kings, for 1,000 years.

Don't you believe Jesus will be their King ruling over them? How could they not be in His kingdom in that case?

 

[Taken]

There is something very seriously wrong with you. John very specifically called Jesus "the ruler of the kings of the earth". Present tense. Do you think John didn't know what he was talking about?

Absolutely John Revealed the Truth of WHAT SHALL COME TO PASS….just as Scripture SAYS….Funny you do not recognized John was SPEAKING in the Present TENSE of what He SAW and REVEALED what SHALL come to pass…

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


And btw … the prince of the kings, is not the KING of kings!
Rev 1:
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

It does not say that He will one day be "the ruler of the kings of the earth", it says He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Nope it does not say “one day”….and neither did I…..so that language is irrelevant!
It does not say ruler of the kings…..it says prince of the kings, and says must come to pass, and hereafter….
That is NOT PRESENT TENSE…!

Do you think He doesn't have authority over them?

WHY are you wondering what I think, when I have already CLEARLY SAID He has Authority?

More mis-mash convoluted irrelevant words.

John said He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth". Why do you not want to accept what John taught?

Because that is not what John said.
John was called UP to SEE the Future….
And you think the entire world are believers and Christ is Ruling kings of this earth with an iron rod? Yet the reality is…the kings of this world ARE CORRUPT…..Hint, Hint…WHEN Christ is Ruling OVER KINGS of this world….they will rule their Nations according to the Word of God!
Sorry pal, that has NOT come to pass….YET!

Your understanding of what it means to rule is flawed. It's wrong to think that someone can't be ruling unless everyone is obeying them.

Someone ?
Seriously, you are going to COMPARE THE Power of God (who IS Christ), with human men “whose” power is lessor than the Created angels? And definitely “whose” power is lessor than the ALMIGHTY!

Of course kings of the earth SHALL OBEY….they are ALL IN Jesus, (IN the WORD) BELIEVERS!

Don’t you KNOW WHY they were chosen mortals to re-populate the Earth?
Don’t you KNOW Christ’s Kingdom on Earth is a parallel of God with Adam and Eve, HEARING and LEARNING and BELIEVING ONLY Gods Word…..until they were ENTICED to eat the forbidden fruit?
Don’t you KNOW …. The “enticer, the tempter” was SATAN?
Don’t you KNOW …. Satan shall be REMOVED from the face of the Earth?
Don’t you KNOW …. That means there are no EVIL and WICKED temptations for men to become TEMPTED and NOT KNOW something other than the Word of God, and Not Obey something other than the Word of God?
Don’t you KNOW….for generation after generation During Christ’s reign, up to 1,000 years, men SHALL ONLY be influenced BY the Word of God?

You should get a mirror and preach to yourself about your own flawed Knowledge and understanding thereof.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Absolutely John Revealed the Truth of WHAT SHALL COME TO PASS….just as Scripture SAYS….Funny you do not recognized John was SPEAKING in the Present TENSE of what He SAW and REVEALED what SHALL come to pass…

LOL. You go out of your way to deny the truth. It's shameful. Let's put your reasoning to the test then.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

It says there that Jesus Christ "IS the faithful witness". So, according to you, he was saying that one day Jesus will be the faithful witness but is not the faithful witness yet.

It says there that Jesus Christ IS "the firstborn from the dead". So, according to you, John was saying that some day in the future Jesus will be the firstborn from the dead.

It says there that Jesus "loves us" (present tense), but according to you He doesn't love us now but will love us at some point in the future.

I hope you can see how ludicrous the kind of reasoning your using here is. I'm sure you can, but will you admit it? Probably not.

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

How convenient of you to not reference this verse:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Tell me, why did you ignore this verse? Is it because you will do anything (including ignore verses that contradict your beliefs) to keep your doctrine afloat?

And btw … the prince of the kings, is not the KING of kings!
Rev 1:
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Another example of you going out of your way to try to keep your doctrine afloat. You understand that the New Testament was translated from the original Greek manuscripts, right? Other translations have "ruler" there instead of "the prince". The Greek word is archōn (Strong's G758) and it can mean ruler, chief, leader, or prince. So, the word has other meanings than "prince". So, Jesus is the ruler/king of the kings of the earth.

What are you even claiming by saying He is the prince of the kings of the earth and not the ruler/king of the kings of the earth, anyway? What does that even mean? Is there any king on earth who He doesn't have authority over?

Nope it does not say “one day”….and neither did I…..so that language is irrelevant!
It does not say ruler of the kings…..it says prince of the kings, and says must come to pass, and hereafter….

No, it does not say "must come to pass". That is a lie. It says Jesus Christ IS the ruler of the kings of the earth. Stop lying.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[Truther]

You are not getting it. There are many literal numbers and details in Scripture: 15=15 and 50=50. What you miss is: the overwhelming symbolic thrust of Revelation. That is why you ignore every question. You have no support for your literalist understanding of 1000 years, that is why you have no corroboration. That is the major weakness in the Premil mode of interpretation. Everything is interpreted through the lens of Revelation 20. Amils do the opposite. They interpret Revelation 20 by the rest of Scripture. Amils let the rest of Scripture explain the symbolic and obscure. That is why they have multiple support passages.

No, every sentence in Rev is literal with a few signs included.

Why else in the world would it end with this warning???...


18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


A person is literally nuts to redefine a single sentence with metaphors per this warning.

 

[Truther]

I have told you that I am not a Preterist. I am an Idealist.

Hell is real and no one has said otherwise. These false accusations are a smokescreen for your constant avoidance. You have to do that because your error is being exposed.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Per the spirit world, yes, they are physical and visible to each other.

They can even be felt by us and interact with us.

If you can feel evil, it is physical.

 

[Truther]

LOL. Of course! Did you?

Absolutely!

To obey Acts 2:38 is the way to be saved.

One must be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins to receive remission of their sins, correct?

 

[Truther]

No. You are making that up.

Christ Himself is the firstfruits of the dead in Christ. The firstfruits James referred to were the believing Jews of the first century. You are clueless.

If James 1 says we are firstfruits, and Jesus is a firstfruit, who is the firstfruits?

 

[Truther]

You are making a fool of yourself here. No matter how many times a figurative term is used, it's still figurative. The beast is referenced over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast? Of course not. So, the "thousand years' being referenced 6 times does not mean that it's literal. Your brain is the one that is frozen.

Do you see this?...

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you think the book of Rev is literal with a few signs or metaphoric(nothing means what it says)?

 

[Truther]

No, not in the sense that James was talking about. You didn't bother to check and see who he was addressing in his letter.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

James was talking about Jewish believers in "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations". They were the firstfruits. You need to dig deeper for the truth. I don't know why you are calling yourself "Truther" when you don't put much effort into finding the truth.

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Which firstfruits are we if Jesus is the firstfruits also?

Antifirstfruit?

James excludes all Gentiles?

God call Jewish saints firstfruits and gentile saints holy dogs or something?

It thought there was no such division?

 

[Truther]

LOL. Such nonsense. You are trying to apply Rev 22:19 to someone who is interpreting something as a metaphor within a book that contains many metaphors? Get serious. Also, that verse is talking about someone PURPOSELY taking away or adding to the prophecy in the book and no one is doing that.

Not a single metaphor in the book of Rev.

The metaphor is a lie.

A metaphor is a story or word group with open ended meanings.

The world thinks that the Bible is a lie by hearing us call it metaphoric.

The best word to use is symbolized.

Just like the numbers on a street sign are a description of a specific law.

I dare you to tell a cop that pulls you over for speeding that you didn't see the metaphor.

 

[Truther]

You clearly don't get it.


You completely missed the point. You obviously don't know what the word "signified" means.

signified (noun): the meaning or idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed.

For a message to be signified means that physical symbols and metaphors are used to real things including spiritual realities. That is how the book of Revelation was written. It has many symbols and metaphors. That should be obvious.

Signified is a sign.

Rev is full of signs.

Signs of what?

Descriptive signs of the context of each verse they are found in.

For instance, Jesus is called the lamb in many verses.

Why, because it wants us to see why judgement is in the verse because they rejected the sacrifice.

So, when you see the lamb sign, you see why horrible things happen to mankind....



6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

 

[Taken]

LOL. You go out of your way to deny the truth.

That is a lie.

It's shameful.

The comment was your words, and the shame is on you.

Let's put your reasoning to the test then.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John KNEW and stated, Jesus was called a PRINCE….and Jesus was Faithful….

Didn’t you LEARN those things, LONG before you read Revelations? I did!!!

He being CALLED, KING of kings, was not YET revealed to John… The Angels were speaking to John of things that would COME TO PASS….and then SHOWING JOHN of things that would COME TO PASS….

Don’t you KNOW….what KNOWLEDGE FORETOLD before it happens is?

And what new fangled Bible do you use that teaches not according to Gods Order and Way?

It says there that Jesus Christ "IS the faithful witness". So, according to you,

Don’t speak your mishmash FOR ME.

You going off on a tangent desperately trying to MAKE Christ Jesus Presently ruling the “kings” of this world NOW……is beyond laughable…. The “kings” of this world DO NOT ALL BELIEVE IN Christ Jesus….and are as corrupt as a 3 dollar bill…..and you are convinced….THAT CHRIST Jesus is ruling WITH A ROD OF IRON….over the sickening corrupt men and DOING NOTHING. Sort would make that “ROD OF IRON” as effective as a feather….. Ridiculous!!

Rev 19:
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19….He SHALL rule them with a rod of iron…..

He SHALL….yet according to you HE IS….
And According to anyone with an ounce of wisdom KNOWS He has NOT YET returned to Earth to RULE kings of the Earth.

 

[WPM]

No, every sentence in Rev is literal with a few signs included.

Why else in the world would it end with this warning???...


18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


A person is literally nuts to redefine a single sentence with metaphors per this warning.

That explains why you are so confused and cannot address the counter-evidence. It exposes your error. You are an expert at avoidance. That is why you make a good Premil. This is why Amils win every debate here. There is nothing to refute from Premils apart from avoidance, personal opinions and insults.

 

[WPM]

Do you see this?...

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you think the book of Rev is literal with a few signs or metaphoric(nothing means what it says)?

LOL. Check mate. I knew you would avoid this. That is your MO. That is all you do. Check back on any discussion you involve in and that is what you do. This thread is a classic case-in-point of how you have no answer to Amil.You must promote error and present petty attacks.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely!

To obey Acts 2:38 is the way to be saved.

One must be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins to receive remission of their sins, correct?

Heresy! Romanism! Salvation is by grace through, not your futile good works salvation. True Christians trust in Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your biggest enemy is the Word. We are raised from the dead by His quickening voice. Hello! We are looking at a spiritual resurrection. You know it. That is why you are so sheepish and evasive in your responses.

As you have been shown several times, the believer is "Translated" from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Jesus Christ in light

The believer is "Sealed" and "Quickened" by God the Holy Spirit

Your claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection" is your private interpretation found no place in scripture

Conclusion: You falsely use the term "Spiritual Resurrection" to lay a false foundation to interpret Revelation 20:6 to be fulfilled at a believers salvation "FALSE"!

 

[Truth7t7]

Heresy! Romanism! Salvation is by grace through, not your futile good works salvation. True Christians trust in Christ.

Wrong

Those who claim baptism must be in the name of Jesus only are bound in the cult of "Oneness Pentecostalism" not Romanism as you claim