Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[St. SteVen]

You obviously haven't read elect, remnant/chosen/few--and the whole world/people will definitely NOT be saved in the end--you want to give it another go?

I was raised evangelical, so I have most certainly "read" and heard all sorts of questionable things.

Christ came unto His OWN, and His OWN did not receive Him--I haven't start quoting scriptures, debunking what you hold to be true--that the whole world will be saved.

If your aim is to debunk, there isn't much point.
On the other hand, if you want to UNDERSTAND where I am coming from, that would be worthwhile.
Consider this.

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
All three are in conflict with one another.
1) Damnationism (forever burning hell)
2) Annihilation (incineration to ashes)
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) also known as Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration

Here's an unbiased video presentation about all three views. Debunk that.

 

[Johann]

Here's an unbiased video presentation about all three views. Debunk that.

Not interested in YouTube video clips.
So you are a universalist, believing that pas/ta panta/all will eventually be saved, or maybe I'm reading you wrong.

And what is wrong with debunking that which is clearly against scripture?

1Ti 6:20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.
1Ti 6:21 Although some claim to have it, they have abandoned the faith. May grace be with all of you!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Interesting point. Thanks.
What do you make of this?

Hebrews 12:29 NIV
for our “God is a consuming fire.”[a]

I agree with it as it's scripture.

Didn't this discussion begin with you correcting me about God not being the fire?

 

[St. SteVen]

And what is wrong with debunking that which is clearly against scripture?

Debunk away, friend.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[St. SteVen]

Not interested in YouTube video clips.
So you are a universalist, believing that pas/ta panta/all will eventually be saved, or maybe I'm reading you wrong.

Yes. Amazingly, "all" means all. (horrors)

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by @Chadrho

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[St. SteVen]

And what is wrong with debunking that which is clearly against scripture?

1Ti 6:20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.
1Ti 6:21 Although some claim to have it, they have abandoned the faith. May grace be with all of you!

It looks as though you unintentionally answered your own question with the scripture you quoted.
Shot yourself in the foot. - LOL

Will you now engage in "pointless discussions and contradictions"?

 

[St. SteVen]

Not interested in YouTube video clips.

I see. Your mind is made up. You'll not allow yourself be confused by the facts.
Do you have ostrich in South Africa?

 

[Johann]

I was raised evangelical, so I have most certainly "read" and heard all sorts of questionable things.

If your aim is to debunk, there isn't much point.
On the other hand, if you want to UNDERSTAND where I am coming from, that would be worthwhile.
Consider this.

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
All three are in conflict with one another.
1) Damnationism (forever burning hell)
2) Annihilation (incineration to ashes)
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) also known as Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration

Here's an unbiased video presentation about all three views. Debunk that.

Daniel 12:2-note has a very similar statement that speaks of two antithetical eternal destinies and the Septuagint version uses aionios twice just as in Mt 25:46 - “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life (Lxx = zoen aionion), but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Lxx = aischunen aionion)."

Who do I listen to? The Church fathers? Origen, Tertullian etc.

Or what stands written? You however, are still looking for what is ACTUALLY written?

 

[Johann]

I see. Your mind is made up. You'll not allow yourself be confused by the facts.
Do you have ostrich in South Africa?

You think I have my head buried in the sand?

Why should I waste my time with you when you believe that the the Scriptures is NOT infallible, while you are still awaiting what is ACTUALLY written??

Why bother quoting Scriptures then? What happened to the doctrines of propitiation, atonement, sanctification, justification, the cross, the Christ--when my Bible is NOT infallible?


1) "Am I therefore become your enemy," (hoste echthros humon gegona) "So then have I become your enemy," as one hostile toward you all, Gal_2:5; Gal_2:14. Paul was not Peter's enemy nor was Nathan David's enemy, when each of the former, reprimanded each of the latter for sin, 2Sa_12:1-14.

2) "Because I tell you the truth?" (aletheuon humin) "For speaking the truth to you ?" To flatter or hold back an unpalatable truth, is the mark of an enemy, not a friend, 2Th_3:14-15; Jas_4:4. True freedom from sin and slavery comes from friends, not enemies, Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36; Joh_14:6.

Do you have ostriches where you live?

 

[theJW]

 

[Johann]

View attachment 31485

R.I.P.

 

[theJW]

 

[St. SteVen]

Why should I waste my time with you when you believe that the the Scriptures is NOT infallible

I nominate this as the best question you have asked yet. Kudos.

Why bother quoting Scriptures then? What happened to the doctrines of propitiation, atonement, sanctification, justification, the cross, the Christ

Don't get me wrong. I use the Bible every day.
Mostly to inform fine folks like you of the Father of all Mercy.
That would be God, in case my statement was confusing.

Do you have ostriches where you live?

Only on religious forums. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

View attachment 31486

Some folks believe that God created that for people that don't go to their church.

 

[theJW]

 

[Johann]

Don't get me wrong. I use the Bible every day.
Mostly to inform fine folks like you of the Father of all Mercy.
That would be God, in case my statement was confusing.

I don't need a Catholic to "inform" me of anything, your sarcasm is noted.

 

[theJW]

Careful: the Catholics are responsible for your beliefs!

 

[Johann]

View attachment 31487

Hey look, we have a tikvat chanef-and hatulim surrounds me.

 

[Jack]

Lets look at Jude.

Jude 1:7 says,
”Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Do you think the eternal fire is still burning Sodom and Gomorrha today?
You would think that just because the fire is eternal that it must be still causing harm or destruction to the city of Sodom and Gomorrha but that simply is not the case.

Well gee, if you're wrong you're leading people to "everlasting fire".

 

[theJW]

Jude 1:7- just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. - RSV

I guess some people prefer corrupt translations.