Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Johann]

The video by Brandon Peterson is not in defense of Conditional Immortality. While Brandon and I have talked, and I am not officially aware of his position on hell, I do believe he holds to ECT (Eternal Consious Torment).

The point of Brandon’s video was to show that there is a connection between Isaiah 34 prophecy and Revelation. He connects the verses and shows them in a graphically cool way. There is no mistake that Isaiah 34 is a prophecy of the End Times in Revelation. Another point Brandon makes in the video is that he shows in context that the audience are the Gentile nations and not Israel. His ultimate point is that there would be an actual “Book of the Lord” that you are to seek out and read from in End Times. Some Christians today do not believe there is an actual “Book of the Lord” today.

I bring up Brandon’s video to show that if the city of Edom is going to go up in smoke, it will be in the End Times in the future. So an ECT (Eternal Conscous Torment) Christian can make a case that the smoke of the city of Edom can go up for all eternity. But I don’t believe that is valid because Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35). Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;”. So unless one believes the city of Edom is floating in outer space in the future with it’s own atmosphere and with no land attached at the bottom of it so that the smoke can go up for all eternity, we must conclude that “for ever” and “ever” involving the smoke is a metaphor for final destruction.

As for Edom being the city of Mystery Babylon:

Well, I have not done an indepth study on that, and I am a little busy with other discussions and things.
Maybe in the future I may check it out (if the Lord leads me to study it).

But thank you for mentioning it.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you this fine day.

Likewise, God bless and shalom to you and family.
J.

 

[Patrick1966]

It can only be called a “second death” if it is related to the “first death” (Which is the death of the human body in this life).
Wicked men will be resurrected again (i.e., the resurrection of the damned) and they will face punishment and then be destroyed physically a second time.

So bad people are DEAD in the ground and then Jesus raises them from the dead in order to tell them how terrible they all are and then KILLS all of them dead for eternity?

cc: @St. SteVen

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's because you've been reading and hearing false doctrines in bibles such as the KJV.

I believe the exact opposite, my friend. While I believe Modern Bibles are essential to helping us understand the archaic language in the KJB, the Modern Bibles actually teach false doctrines that we have to be very careful of. I am not just saying this with no evidence, either.

Let the unbiased reader check out the truth for themselves here:

#1. Changed Doctrines in Modern Bibles (Part 1).
#2. Changed Doctrines in Modern Bibles (Part 2).
#3. New Age Teachings in Modern Bibles
#4. Fourteen Changes in Modern Bibles that Favor the Catholic Church (See Page 21 of this PDF).

There are of course more than these, too.

 

[Johann]

So bad people are DEAD in the ground and then Jesus raises them from the dead in order to tell them how terrible they all are and then KILLS all of them dead for eternity?

cc: @St. SteVen

I don't find Universalism in Scriptures-and with YHVH nothing is impossible, He is not the YHVH of the dead, but of the living.

CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
the belief that all humankind will eventually be saved.
"Christian universalism would insist that Christ's atonement did atone for everyone's sins"

So it comes as no surprise that your doctrine is a bit askew

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So bad people are DEAD in the ground and then Jesus raises them from the dead in order to tell them how terrible they all are and then KILLS all of them dead for eternity?

I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality and not Traditional Conditional Immortality.

This is the view that hell is a real and literal place of torment that the rich man went to (Before the Judgment).
This is the view that the place of “outer darkness” is a real and literal place that unfaithful believers will go to before the Judgment.
Yet, I agree with Traditional Conditional Immortality in the fact that we both believe the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will be a literal Lake of Fire that will destroy or annihilate the wicked. This could be punishment of their sins for a certain amount of time in proportion to the sins they committed here on this Earth, and then they are destroyed, or it could be that they are destroyed immediately by Gehenna fire.

But to answer your question: Yes. The Second Death is related to the First Death. If it is not the case then it is not really a Second Death that is truly related to the First Death (Which is literal).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't find Universalism in Scriptures-and with YHVH nothing is impossible, He is not the YHVH of the dead, but of the living.

CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
the belief that all humankind will eventually be saved.
"Christian universalism would insist that Christ's atonement did atone for everyone's sins"

So it comes as no surprise that your doctrine is a bit askew

I know every Christian handles things differently. However, personally, if I know a Christian believes in Universalism, I tend to just ignore their posts. Universalism should not even be debated. It’s just too silly. I have debated against those who believe in Flat Earth and would continue to do so, but I would not do so with Universalism because it is too gross of a distortion of God’s Word.

Universalism is akin to Liberalism in my view. I also strive not to debate with Liberals because they are not taking God’s Word seriously.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. It is no metaphor. It must be taken as the equivalent of eternal or everlasting. Now I could actually prove this to you from the Bible, but would that make any difference? NONE WHATSOEVER. Why? Because people love to twist the Scriptures to fit their false doctrines.

See, the thing is that I am not the only one you are to convince here. This forum is public and therefore other people can see what you write. I imagine there are a lot of Christians on the fence on this topic. Why not help them? I believe that if a person is not willing to back up their beliefs it is because either

(a) They are not being led by God at this time to want to talk about it, or​

(b) They simply are not able to defend their position.​

In either case, the contradiction still exists in the world of ECT. How can the smoke of Edom from Isaiah 34:10 go up for all eternity (forever and ever) if the earth will pass away? Jesus says Heaven and Earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35). Revelation 21:1 says the Earth passed away (Which is in the future). So unless the city of Edom teleports to the New Earth or it exists in outer space with it’s own atmosphere without any ground from the Earth underneath it, it seems highly unlikely that the smoke of Edom will go up for all eternity. So we must conclude it is a metaphor. Just as a husband may tell his wife that they will be together forever (Even though they both know that death will most likely cause them to depart from one another). The husband is speaking metaphorically. They will be together forever in context as long as they live upon this Earth.

 

[Patrick1966]

I know every Christian handles things differently. However, personally, if I know a Christian believes in Universalism, I tend to just ignore their posts. Universalism should not even be debated. It’s just too silly. I have debated against those who believe in Flat Earth and would continue to do so, but I would not do so with Universalism because it is too gross of a distortion of God’s Word.

Universalism is akin to Liberalism in my view. I also strive not to debate with Liberals because they are not taking God’s Word seriously.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

View attachment 31450

May the truth and love of the Lord Jesus Christ rest upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no "everlasting fire"! He wants our company "forever and ever" as Jesus put it.

That really is not an answer to the points I made. Please try again by answering the points I made. Anyone can make comments that attempt to illicit emotions to win folks to their side. I prefer using logic and reason involving points in the Word of God Instead.

 

[keithr]

So bad people are DEAD in the ground and then Jesus raises them from the dead in order to tell them how terrible they all are and then KILLS all of them dead for eternity?

There is 1,000 years set aside for teaching the truth, while Satan is locked up (Rev 20:2) to prevent him from deceiving mankind, and to change those bad people into good people. The resurrected Church will be working with Jesus to bless these people for 1,000 years (which is longer than anybody has ever lived up until now). Then Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev 20:7) and he will once again try to deceive the nations (Rev 20:8). This is the final testing for mankind, and those that fail that test and side with Satan will be destroyed (second death) by fire coming down out of heaven from God (Rev 20:9). Satan will also be destroyed.

God gives everyone plenty of opportunity for repentance and to gain eternal life ("God is love"). 2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

 

[Jack]

Anyone can make comments that attempt to illicit emotions to win folks to their side. I prefer using logic and reason involving points in the Word of God I

I'm just a Bible believer. Jesus is God and Hell fire is eternal!
Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, ...

 

[St. SteVen]

For, indeed, Eloheinu is a consuming Eish. [Dt 4:24; 9:3; Isa 33:14]

You misspelled Fish.

 

[Johann]

You misspelled Fish.

Don't know if you are sarcastic or not--In Hebrew, these terms share the letters alef and shin, which together form the word “eish” meaning “fire.”

Maybe you up for Hebrew lessons?

כי יהוה אלהיך אשׁ אכלה הוא אל

--or maybe you need a new pair of glasses?

LightCandles FlamesLighting The Temple MenorahChanukkahNadav and AvihuShabbatBonfires MishkanBurning Creation of Light and LuminairesParashat VayakhelCravingWaterFlames (שלהבת)The Fire of the AltarThe Copper AltarDesireLag BaOmerShimon Bar YochaiParashat TzavFire-Offerings

 

[Johann]

You misspelled Fish.

So YHVH is a "fish" according to YOUR misspelling?

 

[St. SteVen]

--or maybe you need a new pair of glasses?

Definitely! - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't find Universalism in Scriptures

This should get you started.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Johann]

This should get you started.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Quote context, anyone can pluck random verses to MAKE universalism universalism--that ALL/the whole world/kosmos will eventually be saved in the end--is THAT what Scriptures is saying?

 

[St. SteVen]

So YHVH is a "fish" according to YOUR misspelling?

No. but I though Jesus was an ἰχθύς

 

[St. SteVen]

universalism--that ALL/the whole world/kosmos will eventually be saved in the end--is THAT what Scriptures is saying?

I believe so, yes.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.