Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Beebster]

One more comment. Works of faith are the evidence of a person's conversion. Those works are caused by Christ's spiritual work that He does within them. Christ deserves all the credit for them.

So true.

Christ is the Sabbath.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST. (Mat 11:28)

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:10-11)

There is a thread going where they're arguing over A Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom 2:17)

CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH. THE SABBATH IS EVERY DAY.

All good spiritual works come from Christ and it is God we need to give credit to:

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? (1 Cor 4:7)

And as for the wonderful works we do:

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: OTHERWISE ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Mat 6:1)

Else:

-I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All your good works are Christ in you!

God Bless

 

[FaithWillDo]

Are you a universalist? Believing the whole human race shall be saved?

Dear Johann,
Yes, I believe Christ will save all mankind. Christ is mankind's Savior and since He is mankind's God, He cannot fail in the mission His Father gave Him. If He fails to save even one person, He would miss the mark His Father set and that would be a sin.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Cor 13:8 Love never fails;

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

In this age, Christ is only saving the Elect. They were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. But they will only be the first fruits of His harvest of mankind. The balance of mankind will be saved at the end of the final age. Their time of salvation is what ends the ages. Christ's reign will then end and He will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to His Father. Only then will God be "all in all".

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Consider Paul's conversion experience. It is the pattern (type) for the salvation of all the other Elect of this age (1Tim 1:16). Paul didn't ask Christ to come to him, nor did Christ ask permission. But because Paul was chosen, Christ freely gave Paul the Spirit and converted Him. Paul's conversion changed his heart and mind, so much so, that Paul said he is a bondservant to Christ. Christ will do this spiritual work within all His Elect in this age and He will do it within the balance of mankind in the final age. Since the Father gave Christ the mission to save all mankind, Christ swore through the prophets that He would do it.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

As for the Hebrew word "olam", it never means eternal, for ever or everlasting. It means a fixed amount of time usually pertaining to an age or ages.

Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever (olam) and ever.

Here is the correct translation:

Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for the ages (olam) .

This translation matches with the New Testament teachings that say Christ's reign will come to an end when the ages are complete.

Another example:

Exo 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever (olam) unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Here is the correct translation:

Exo 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for the age (olam) unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

The tabernacle of the congregation ended when the Old Covenant age ended.

Another example:

Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting (olam), and to everlasting (olam). Amen, and Amen.

Here is the correct translation:

Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from age (olam), and to age (olam). Amen, and Amen.

Another example:

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever (olam) in any thing that is done under the sun.

Here is the correct translation:

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for the ages (olam) in any thing that is done under the sun.

Another one:

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore (olam).

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for the age (olam).

The sanctuary was only for the Old Covenant age.

You said:
The Everlasting God cannot be caught by surprise. Because He is everlasting, He knows what is going to happen at the beginning at the end and everything in between.

Here is the scripture:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Scripture never says that God is a fortuneteller who can look into the future and see how things turn out. Read the verse carefully. God knows the end from the beginning because He "will also bring it to pass" and "will also do it". This is a teaching on the power of God to accomplish all things just as He has "spoken it". God is never caught by surprise because He controls all things. Nothing happens unless God is the cause of it happening. Mankind has a great deal of trouble understanding this attribute about God, but nonetheless it is true - but it does take faith to believe it.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

So true.

Christ is the Sabbath.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST. (Mat 11:28)

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:10-11)

There is a thread going where they're arguing over A Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom 2:17)

CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH. THE SABBATH IS EVERY DAY.

All good spiritual works come from Christ and it is God we need to give credit to:

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? (1 Cor 4:7)

And as for the wonderful works we do:

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: OTHERWISE ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Mat 6:1)

Else:

-I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All your good works are Christ in you!

God Bless

Dear Beebster,
I have presented the truth you presented in your post to many SDA believers on this forum. They just can't accept that the physical Sabbath Day was only a foreshadowing of the time when we enter into the rest of Christ.

As I have said, the Old Covenant is based upon the works of man to make themselves acceptable to God. The New Covenant is based solely upon the works of Christ who will make us acceptable to God. Even our repentance and confession of faith is a work of Christ that He does within us. Christ leaves nothing up to chance or to man's supposed free will ability. Christ is the Savior and He will not stop working until all mankind has been converted and saved. The First Fruits (the Elect) are saved in this age and the balance of mankind will be saved in the final age.

Mankind has no works to perform for salvation under the New Covenant. It is a free gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the FREE GIFT IN GRACE, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Joe

 

[MatthewG]

Dear Beebster,
I have presented the truth you presented in your post to many SDA believers on this forum. They just can't accept that the physical Sabbath Day was only a foreshadowing of the time when we enter into the rest of Christ.

As I have said, the Old Covenant is based upon the works of man to make themselves acceptable to God. The New Covenant is based solely upon the works of Christ who will make us acceptable to God. Even our repentance and confession of faith is a work of Christ that He does within us. Christ leaves nothing up to chance or to man's supposed free will ability. Christ is the Savior and He will not stop working until all mankind has been converted and saved. The First Fruits (the Elect) are saved in this age and the balance of mankind will be saved in the final age.

Mankind has no works to perform for salvation under the New Covenant. It is a free gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the FREE GIFT IN GRACE, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Joe

the works is love

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

1 Corinthians 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

bible.com

If you don’t have love… then you’re not working. Towards Gods will.

People look down on others by nature… judgements… etc.

That’s all the book of James. Unless we just say to hell with James.

 

[Taken]

Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

Correct Regarding…a human mans BODY & SOUL & Natural SPIRIT…

BE-cause….THAT human mans Body, Soul, Natural Spirit…SHALL HAVE ALL Life Removed from it’ body, soul, natural spirit.

However…Celestial spirits were created WITH ever-lasting Life…THEY CAN NOT DIE.

When DEATH is “swallowed up” IN VICTORY…means:
** All mortal men Against God will have been Destroyed
** the END of the Possibility OF DEATH….FOR manKIND..
AND…
** the Fallen angels (spirits) shall FOREVER be “CONFINED” AWAY FROM remaining Glorified manKIND.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MatthewG]

I believe there has to be some type of dread when in Sheol.

Consider… everything before Jesus.
After Jesus, everything was set right and hell is done away with… with the contents being poured out.

While I’m not very studied in this; I’ll tell you that’s not the place people end up when they die; If it’s over…

There are two destinations. Out side or in side. Of the heavenly. According to revelation… I’m sure there was a dreadful wait for those in paradise to get their resurrection body… and there was a lot of unrest for those separated.

 

[FaithWillDo]

the works is love

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

1 Corinthians 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

bible.com

If you don’t have love… then you’re not working. Towards Gods will.

People look down on others by nature… judgements… etc.

That’s all the book of James. Unless we just say to hell with James.

Dear MatthewG,
Yes, I absolutely agree with most of your comments. However, it is Christ within us that causes us to love God and our neighbors.

Phi 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

If our love is something that we can have without it coming from God, then there would be no need for "prayer and supplication". In this time of being birthed into the Kingdom of Heaven, mankind must learn to trust God for all their needs. Usually, God will cause a person to see their need first and then He will cause them to turn to Him in prayer to satisfy that need. This has happened to me many, many times.

This verse applies:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The New Earth is a converted believer's new spiritual nature which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is the same as the "new heart" that Christ will give us. The new earth/new heart is what transforms the carnal mind into the mind of Christ and is where our love for God and others originates. It is not our work, it is Christ's work that He does from within us.

Love is one of the primary needs that mankind lacks. But if we pray to God, He is faithful to satisfy that need.

A converted believer's love comes from the peace of God that dwells within them. It is the Spirit that causes a believer to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13). This certainly includes our love for God and others. Remember, we are His workmanship. Christ is making us into a new creation who has the same attributes as His Father and Himself. This is our salvation. We must be converted from a child of the devil into a child of God, and that of course, is the work that Christ came to do within all mankind.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Just curious: why did you bring up this subject?

Joe

 

[MatthewG]

Dear MatthewG,
Yes, I absolutely agree with most of your comments. However, it is Christ within us that causes us to love God and our neighbors.

Phi 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

If our love is something that we can have without it coming from God, then there would be no need for "prayer and supplication". In this time of being birthed into the Kingdom of Heaven, mankind must learn to trust God for all their needs. Usually, God will cause a person to see their need first and then He will cause them to turn to Him in prayer to satisfy that need. This has happened to me many, many times.

This verse applies:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The New Earth is a converted believer's new spiritual nature which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is the same as the "new heart" that Christ will give us. The new earth/new heart is what transforms the carnal mind into the mind of Christ and is where our love for God and others originates. It is not our work, it is Christ's work that He does from within us.

Love is one of the primary needs that mankind lacks. But if we pray to God, He is faithful to satisfy that need.

A converted believer's love comes from the peace of God that dwells within them. It is the Spirit that causes a believer to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13). This certainly includes our love for God and others. Remember, we are His workmanship. Christ is making us into a new creation who has the same attributes as His Father and Himself. This is our salvation. We must be converted from a child of the devil into a child of God, and that of course, is the work that Christ came to do within all mankind.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Just curious: why did you bring up this subject?

Joe

It's the most critical doctrine concerning ((I don't believe we can love like Yahavah can on our own, but,)"being in Christ." "Love being the works." People who use the bible to contradict one scripture from another, have issues.

 

[PGS11]

This is a temporary reality the bible tells us everything here will pass away in time and the veil will be lifted to eternal life to those that believe.I can't believe all we will obtain is a state of being in hell or heaven.Its not what the bible teaches.

 

[FaithWillDo]

It's the most critical doctrine concerning ((I don't believe we can love like Yahavah can on our own, but,)"being in Christ." "Love being the works." People who use the bible to contradict one scripture from another, have issues.

Dear MatthewG,
Yes, love is the foundation of a believer's works of faith and those works are caused by Christ.

When a believer is converted and has their spiritual blindness healed, their false beliefs and scriptural contradictions will start falling like dominoes as they learning the truth of Christ "line upon line and precept upon precept".

To learn the truth of Christ, it must start at the foundation (Christ and Him crucified) and be built up from there.

The foundation of truth begins when Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. At that point, they remain spiritually blind and carnally minded. They can understand the physical work of Christ that He did under the Old Covenant - work which led Him to the cross. But the spiritual work of Christ that He does under the New Covenant will largely be veiled from their understanding. This type of believer is a "babe" who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified).

For the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain is the Spirit of Truth and is what will heal a believer's spiritual blindness. The Apostles received the Latter Rain of the Day of Pentecost.

This verse applies:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Before the Day of Pentecost arrived, the Apostles (having only been given the Early Rain) were spiritually blind and were "babes" who could not understand the spiritual teachings of Christ under the New Covenant. They were not converted.

These scriptures apply:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

Christ answers His question below:

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him (the Early Rain), he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly (the Latter Rain).

This truth is repeated here:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer babes who draw milk) ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

After the death of Paul, the churches that were started were all devoured by the wolves (ministers of Satan who have the spirit of anti-Christ). This is when the language in the church became confused (as typed by the Tower of Babel) and when the bread they consumed became leavened with Satan's deceptions. And because their language was confused, the church fragmented into many different denominations and sects. The unity of truth that once existed died except for one false teaching that they all profess. That one common denominator is a belief in mixing works with faith. It is with this lie of Satan that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church. It is this false church which masquerades in the world as the true church and deceives many.

Since all babes are now quickly consumed by the wolves, all new believers will experience a time in the apostate church. For the apostate believers who have been chosen for a early salvation (the Elect), Christ will come again to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Now with the Spirit of Truth within them, Christ will spiritually appear to them and will gather the new child of God to heaven (spiritually speaking). The Elect believer will then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves. Just afterwards, Christ will commence the Day of the Lord (judgment) and will remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot from within the believer. Both will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted and will be guided into all truth by the Spirit of Truth. Eventually, all the false teachings they learned in the apostate church will fall by the wayside. This is when the contradictions will disappear and they will find the unity of truth that all the Elect who are of "full age" have.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Joe

Note: I tried to remove the confused symbols but I could not get them deleted. It should say the word c o n f u s e d. Not sure why that is happening there.

 

[MatthewG]

Dear MatthewG,
Yes, love is the foundation of a believer's works of faith and those works are caused by Christ.

Thank you for sharing. Yes it is the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit of Yahavah that does any good through you. I don’t have to read all the extra. :) Be blessed, Joe.

 

[JunChosen]

Dear JunChosen,
Since I didn't directly respond to the scripture you quoted, I will now.

I'm not sure why you posted it, but all that the scripture is saying is that there is an order to the salvation of mankind.

These verses apply:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And, behold, there are last (Gentiles) which shall be first, and there are first (Jews) which shall be last.

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

In Romans 11:25-27, Paul is stating the order to salvation. With what Paul says, it is clear that the physical Nation of Israel will be last to be saved just as Christ stated. Their salvation will commence after the "fullness" of the Gentiles have been saved. When you look at other scripture (here a little and there a little, Isa 28:9-12), it is clear that "fulness" is meaning 100% of all Gentiles.

So when will the fulness of the Gentiles be saved? It can only occur in the final age when Christ and His bride make this call:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Feast of Ingathering), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Feast of Weeks represents the harvest of First Fruits. They are the Elect.

The Feast of Ingathering represents the final and great harvest of mankind at "year's end" (the final age).

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

In the end, all who have died in Adam (all mankind) will all be made alive in Christ. This statement leaves ZERO room for any of mankind to be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Don't assume that the salvation of the Elect which is occurring now in this age as being the only harvest of mankind. It is not. Christ is the good farmer and will harvest His entire crop of mankind. Nothing can stop Him:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

As I have suspected, you lack knowledge in understanding Bible doctrines and its interpretations.
You're not even aware that there be a remnant chosen by grace from every nations of the world!!! (Ro.9:27) and this is also true of (Ro.11:5).

Read my lips: There is no "Universal Salvation" that the Bible speaks of. If this be true, then logically there should no one be in hell however; Scripture says otherwise. Hell will heavily be populated!!

I suggest you re-study your Bible doctrines and its interpretations!! Because they're full of holes.

To God Be The Glory

 

[FaithWillDo]

As I have suspected, you lack knowledge in understanding Bible doctrines and its interpretations.
You're not even aware that there be a remnant chosen by grace from every nations of the world!!! (Ro.9:27) and this is also true of (Ro.11:5).

Read my lips: There is no "Universal Salvation" that the Bible speaks of. If this is true, then logically there should no one be in hell however; Scripture says otherwise. Hell will heavily be populated!!

I suggest you re-study your Bible doctrines and its interpretations!! Because they're full of holes.

To God Be The Glory

Dear JunChosen,

You need to consider these scriptures below because they contradict your beliefs - then pray for more faith and understanding. God is the giver of good gifts to those who ask.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cor 13:8 Love never fails;

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joe

 

[Hobie]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

They burn till they are consumed, simple as that, but since God has the power to resurrect this meaning is they will not be brought back, they will cease to exist forever.

 

[amigo de christo]

They burn till they are consumed, simple as that, but since God has the power to resurrect this meaning is they will not be brought back, they will cease to exist forever.

what if i told you a massively huge message of anti christ has been sold unto the world and even within Christendom itself .
The interfaith all inclusive Christ denying lie .
Now what if i told you this came from the seat of a harlot who sits high over this world and has influenced
both its kings , peoples and religoins and much of even christendom to buy this lie it calleth love and claims is of GOD .
What if i told you the number of the name and of the seat by which this entity sits
as it brings its ecumincal interfaith lie to the world , adds up to Six hundred three score and six .
And what if i told you that many even within christendom sure seem to buy this prophet and his prophets
who may appear to have horns as a lamb yet speak as do a dragon .
And what would you say if i were to tell you that those who buy into this anti christ lie
have been led to beleive this very message will bring them PEACE N SAFETY , peace in the middle east .
PADNAH we might very well be MUCH farther along than most folks realize .
We got us wolves in wool under the influence of the king wolf in wool and they do its bidding
to bring what they beleive will give them PEACE N SAFETY .
And now a word . For when they shall say Peace n safety , CRASH BANG , SUDDEN destruction cometh upon them all
and they will not escape . We really need to get again back into our own bible and start learning things real fast .
Cause a mountain of decievers are within christendom and they do merge this people
and all other FALSE religoins to be as one and to find common ground . THIS IS not about too bode well
for those who sipped of that CUP which that WHORE pours out unto them to drink . Her cup of FORNICATION

 

[Jack]

There will be BILLIONS in Hell forever who don't believe in Hell.

 

[JunChosen]

Dear JunChosen,

You need to consider these scriptures below because they contradict your beliefs - then pray for more faith and understanding. God is the giver of good gifts to those who ask.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cor 13:8 Love never fails;

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joe