Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Scott Downey]

People at their deaths have already been judged, God does not make mistakes. They are bound into their proper places.

For example
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The final judgement is the final rendering, the final solution, the final statement on the wicked as a witness to the entire universe, all of heaven is there, all of those of the earth are there, there is no one that is not present for the finality of judgement is completed at this time.
It is truly finished; it is the end of the earth and the heavens and the beginning of a new creation.

Their names will not be found in the book of LIFE as those names God already wrote in His book at the beginning of all things.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

*********************************************
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
***********************************************

Being judged according to your works in this way is not going to be giving you life, as by works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight.

 

[Johann]

that looks like the love child of this all incluisive faith merging , false religoin merging , fake love
co exist , finding common ground junk .
WHICH i might add , EVERY denomination is now under to some degree . ITS mother be the harlot
and its pappy the devil . but boy can it holler lets find common ground and love love love all day long .
But what it wont do is corrrect sins and errors . and what it will do is offer up a man pleasing false hope
that gives the world a false love that offers up a false salvation .
AKA , it gives them the desires of their own lustful hearts while promising them salvation .
SOMETHING GOD NOR CHRIST WOULD EVER HAVE DONE .

You’ve touched on some important points about the state of faith today. The Bible gives us clear guidance on how to deal with these issues:

Beware of False Teachings: Jesus warned us about false prophets who might look good on the outside but are really dangerous. In Matthew 7:15, He said, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” It’s a strong reminder that we need to be careful about who we listen to and make sure their teachings align with Scripture.

Don’t Compromise Truth for Unity: In Galatians 1:6-8, Paul is quite serious when he says, “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel.” He’s addressing how easily people can stray from the true message of Christ when they compromise for the sake of unity or convenience.

Correcting Sin is Key: The Bible also emphasizes the need to correct and rebuke when necessary. 2 Timothy 4:2 tells us, “Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.” It’s clear that part of loving others is guiding them away from sin and towards the truth.

Beware of False Hope: And when it comes to offering hope, it’s essential that it’s grounded in truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 warns that people will seek out teachers who tell them what they want to hear, rather than the truth. Similarly, Jeremiah 23:16 says, “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes.” We need to be careful not to offer false hope or promises that aren’t aligned with what God says.

So, while it’s important to strive for unity and love, we must do so without compromising on the truth or correcting errors. True love, as shown by Christ, involves both upholding the truth and guiding others away from falsehood and sin.

Stay strong brother.
J.

 

[CC7799]

Luke chapter 16

Jesus gave us analogy.

Two sides of the Gulf.

Righteous in paradise
Wicked and spiritually dead in sheol, called hell.

Sheol is holding place for the spiritually dead and wicked until judgment Day.

Revelation chapter 20

The dead are judged by their works. Some people will get eternal life.
Some will go into lake of fire.

1 Corinthians chapter 2

You need holy Spirit to get through narrow gate.

Many will go through wide gate. Matthew chapter 7

Corinthians chapter 4

Many people are blinded by Satan. They won't repent and conform to God's standard. They can't see God's Truth or understand.


Lot of folks think there running up to Jesus when they die.

You need holy Spirit.

Many people will end up in sheol.

 

[St. SteVen]

You need holy Spirit to get through narrow gate.

Many will go through wide gate. Matthew chapter 7

Thanks for your post.
I think there is a problem with linking the narrow and wide gate with our destination in the afterlife. (few find it)

Is God making sport by playing a high-stakes game with our souls?
The phrase "only a few find it" indicates that of those who were searching, only a few succeeded. Is that how it works?
Can you see that? If "only a few find it", then some seekers failed.

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction,
and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Good topic, thanks.
How does it feel to be labeled a heretic? (feel the love)

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

Agree. The fire is eternal, or of eternal origin. God fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Agree. Only God is eternal.

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Exaggerated language is a literary device to make a point. Not meant to be taken literally. Did Jesus really want us to remove an eye or hand that "causes" us to sin?

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.

Right. If this was literal, Edom would still be in this state today.

Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?

Agree. Even Death and Hades will experience the eternal fire. (refining/restorative/redemptive)

Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.

Agree. What is the purpose? See the forum topic about the prodigal angel.

Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Agree. Body and soul, but not spirit. (refining/restorative/redemptive)

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

garden? field? ... you left us hanging there. - LOL

[

 

[CC7799]

Thanks for your post.
I think there is a problem with linking the narrow and wide gate with our destination in the afterlife. (few find it)

Is God making sport by playing a high-stakes game with our souls?
The phrase "only a few find it" indicates that of those who were searching, only a few succeeded. Is that how it works?
Can you see that? If "only a few find it", then some seekers failed.

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction,
and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[

No favoritism.

Thanks for your post.
I think there is a problem with linking the narrow and wide gate with our destination in the afterlife. (few find it)

Is God making sport by playing a high-stakes game with our souls?
The phrase "only a few find it" indicates that of those who were searching, only a few succeeded. Is that how it works?
Can you see that? If "only a few find it", then some seekers failed.

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction,
and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[

No favoritism.

I sense you don't understand after life.

Luke chapter 16.

When person dies. They go to paradise or sheol.

There's gulf that separate both sides.

Righteous in paradise.
Wicked and spiritually dead in sheol. It's holding place for the spiritually dead until judgment Day.


1 Corinthians chapter 2
You need Holy Spirit to giude you, and discernment.

Many people get trapped in traditions of men. False doctrine. They are spiritually polluted.. They are spiritually dead.

James chapter 2

Many people are not doesrs of the word.
Faith and works go together.

Dead Works will merit trip to sheol.

Traditions of men merit Trip to sheol.

No repentance merits Trip to sheol.

Romans chapter 11
Ephesians chapter 1
First peter chapter 1

God's election have Holy Spirit.
Many people don't have holy Spirit. They have Spirit of slumber.

Matthew chapter 13.

Mystery of God is hidden from many people. The apostles are of the election. Jesus spoke in parables to people.

Jesus spoke plainy to apostles.
But in parables to people.

Different classification here.

Election have Holy Spirit.

Some people have Spirit of slumber.

The deep truth is hidden from some people.

Wide gate goes to sheol.
Narrow gate to paradise.

Psalm chapter 49.

They shall go to generations of their fathers, They shall never see the light.

Those with Spirit of slumber end up in sheol.

You need holy Spirit to get through narrow gate.

I moved on to other subjects.

 

[St. SteVen]

You need holy Spirit to get through narrow gate.

Was the Holy Spirit available when Jesus spoke those words?
Is the Advocate the Holy Spirit?

John 16:7 NIV
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away.
Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

[

 

[Super Kal]

I don't think Matthew 7:13 is necessarily talking about needing the Holy Spirit to get through the narrow gate...

in Matthew 7:13, the word narrow comes from the root word "histemi", which means to "stand fast, stand firm"... so I think what Matthew 713 is actually saying is that it is through tribulation and trying of the faith is how we enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and that actually makes even more sense, because it was the Apostles who said in Acts 14:22 "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we don't need the Holy Spirit, because we most definitely do, I'm just simply saying that I don't think that's what that particular verse is trying to convey to the reader

 

[Super Kal]

"They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!

Amen Jesus!

The term "forever and ever" is an incorrect translation. The most literal translation would read "to the ages of the ages"...

The reason behind the differences forever and ever and to the ages of the ages is because when it concerned the viewpoint of the Jews and the viewpoint of the Greeks when it concerned a time, they both have very different viewpoints... The best way I can describe this is Google Maps the way the Jews perceived time was through the street view, while the way that the Greeks perceived time was by looking at a map, the overhead view. In the Old Testament, there is no word, no single word that means eternal, or eternity... it would have to be in the form of a phrase, without end,. The term "olam" does not mean eternity

it means "properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future)"
Deuteronomy 15:16-17, we see the word "olam" used, and in most literal translations, the word Olam is translated to the term forever:

16 And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.

That servant is not going to live forever. at some point in their life, they are going to die. At that time, is when they stop being a servant... It was never talking about the servant living forever as a servant.

That's the point behind the word "olam". It refers to an undisclosed time that one cannot see or perceive. When the Greeks saw this, they did not know how to translate that into a Greek word, so instead they translated it into a phrase "unto the age".. this also goes for the same thing when the Old Testament says "from everlasting to everlasting"... I was taught to see this type of word describe as a very big hill. You look at the hill, you don't know how tall it is, you don't know how why it is, and you don't know how long it goes for... That's was one way of how olam was described to me. Now if there are two of them, say, for the sake of this discussion, we passed that one hill, well, we have another hill, that we still can't see or perceive how long it will go on for how high it is, so in those terms there's no way that we can perceive just how long this particular duration will last.

Also, let's look at the surrounding context, The Bible does not say exactly what you quote. The Bible says the following In both Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10
"and the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" and "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

there is another problem, and that is the day and night part... in Eternity, there will be no day or night. We read this in revelation 21 and Isaiah 60, both of these books and chapters describe a place that has no day or night:

Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Isaiah 60:19-20
19 “The sun shall no longer be your light by day,
Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you;
But the Lord will be to you an everlasting light,
And your God your glory.
20 Your sun shall no longer go down,
Nor shall your moon withdraw itself;
For the Lord will be your everlasting light,
And the days of your mourning shall be ended.

Both Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 cannot be a literal interpretation of what is going on in eternity, because the both of these verses describe day and night, day and night will no longer exist in eternity

Furthermore, This is not the first time we see the Bible use this type of language. The Book of Isaiah also uses the exact type of language to describe a situation, and it uses that imagery to not convey eternal torment, but the complete destruction and obliteration of the city of Edom:

Isaiah 34:8-10
8 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

Yet even at the end of verse 10, when it says no one shall pass through it for ever and ever, in the next couple of verses, it tells us that wild animals will inhabit the area once again:

v11
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.

What these verses are trying to convey to the reader, is that the city of Edom was completely and utterly destroyed, there was no ruins, there was no evidence left that the city even existed, and then wild animals came back and inhabited the land, because there was no shred of evidence left that this city even existed, so these verses found in revelation cannot be used to describe eternal torment, because the first time that the imagery was used was not used to describe eternal torment to begin with.

Like you, when I first read these verses in Revelation, I thought eternal torment was real as well, that is until I started to compare scripture with Scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Dear AuntyJane,
Your understanding of "free will" is incorrect. Free will is having the ability to make choices that are free of divine intervention. Scripture strongly teaches that Christ intervenes in all our choices.

John 6:44 & 65 state that no one can come to the son unless the Father “draws“ them. So the Father sees the heart response in those who hear the Christian message, and he will reveal his truth to them, but he will not force himself on anyone. The only “divine intervention” is opening up the heart to accept the truth. It is then the choice of the individual to comply with God’s direction…..or not. That is the exercise of free will.

Verses that say to make a "choice" do not mean that mankind has a free will ability to do so. You are adding that to the scripture.

That is nonsense….satan made a choice…..to hijack the human race and turn them into his worshippers.
What drove him to do that? Selfish desire.

Eve made a choice when she accepted the lies told to her by the devil, and she took something that did not belong to her…again out of selfish desire. A crime against God that carried the death penalty.

Adam also made a choice to rebel against God, by accepting stolen property. He too knew what the consequences were, but he chose to side with his disobedient wife instead of his Creator. Selfishly he did not want to lose her.

There was no excuse for any of them to transgress God’s command.

 

[Jack]

The term "forever and ever" is an incorrect translation. The most literal translation would read "to the ages of the ages"...
And who made you a Greek language expert? Which translation are you citing???

 

[FaithWillDo]

John 6:44 & 65 state that no one can come to the son unless the Father “draws“ them. So the Father sees the heart response in those who hear the Christian message, and he will reveal his truth to them, but he will not force himself on anyone. The only “divine intervention” is opening up the heart to accept the truth. It is then the choice of the individual to comply with God’s direction…..or not. That is the exercise of free will.

That is nonsense….satan made a choice…..to hijack the human race and turn them into his worshippers.
What drove him to do that? Selfish desire.

Eve made a choice when she accepted the lies told to her by the devil, and she took something that did not belong to her…again out of selfish desire. A crime against God that carried the death penalty.

Adam also made a choice to rebel against God, by accepting stolen property. He too knew what the consequences were, but he chose to side with his disobedient wife instead of his Creator. Selfishly he did not want to lose her.

There was no excuse for any of them to transgress God’s command.

Dear AuntyJane,
You said:
John 6:44 & 65 state that no one can come to the son unless the Father “draws“ them. So the Father sees the heart response in those who hear the Christian message, and he will reveal his truth to them, but he will not force himself on anyone. The only “divine intervention” is opening up the heart to accept the truth.

An unbeliever is drawn to Christ when Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives them their faith.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, the ONLY choice they will make is to accept Christ - they can no longer reject Him.

You said:
It is then the choice of the individual to comply with God’s direction…..or not. That is the exercise of free will.

There are ZERO scriptures which support what you said above. And not only that, there are MANY scriptures which contradict your statement.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The doctrine of free will is a teaching of the apostate church. It has no scriptural support. Scripture clearly and frequently says that mankind's "will" is controlled and directed by God.

When a person believes that they made a choice for Christ by their supposed free will ability, they are mixing works with faith. This is the same as mixing the Old Covenant (crooked way, works of man) with the New Covenant (straight way, works of Christ). When a believer does this mixing, they have committed the sin that leads to death. They are fallen from grace. It is this sin that Satan uses to kill the saints.

You said:
That is nonsense….satan made a choice…..to hijack the human race and turn them into his worshippers.
What drove him to do that? Selfish desire.

Eve made a choice when she accepted the lies told to her by the devil, and she took something that did not belong to her…again out of selfish desire. A crime against God that carried the death penalty.

Adam also made a choice to rebel against God, by accepting stolen property. He too knew what the consequences were, but he chose to side with his disobedient wife instead of his Creator. Selfishly he did not want to lose her.

There was no excuse for any of them to transgress God’s command.

Having the ability to make a choice does not mean it is a uncaused choice. Since Christ teaches us His truth "here a little and there a little", you must look to other scripture to see if the choices a person makes is uncaused by God. When a person uses this scripturally prescribed way of learning the truth, they will easily find that mankind does not have a free will ability. Just the few verses I quoted above destroy any notion that mankind can make uncaused choices.

Paul was asked about the fairness of how God operates within mankind in the verse below:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here is Paul's answer:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

AuntyJane, your beliefs are not coming from what God's Word teaches. Your beliefs are founded upon the false reasonings which come from your carnal nature.

You should read Proverbs chapter 7. It applies to what has caused you to believe in the false teaching of free will.

Here are a few of the keys verses:

Prov 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtle of heart.

Prov 7:21 With her much fair speech she (carnal nature) caused him (the mind) to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

Prov 7:25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. 26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. 27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Chapter 7 is a teaching on the Great Harlot. To understand what the chapter is teaching, it is imperative to understand what the symbol "Great Harlot" represents. It represents mankind's carnal spiritual nature (the marred spirit/wicked heart). It is this marred spirit that causes mankind to become carnally minded and sinful.

When an Elect believer is going through the conversion process, one of the things that happens during their time of judgment is the Great Harlot is destroyed. She is destroyed so that the believer will only be governed by the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. With this new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit, the carnal mind will be transformed into the mind of Christ. After it is, the believer will walk by the Spirit and by faith.

Revelation chapter 18 is a description of the Great Harlot's judgment.

After a believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan will come to the new believer and indwell them with the spirit of anti-Christ. The spirit of anti-Christ will make the carnal nature (Great Harlot) of the person "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). That is why the verse below says that the Great Harlot has become the habitation of devils:

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (false beliefs).

And that is why for a person to be saved, they must be converted. Conversion requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT (the Latter Rain), and with FIRE (judgment): 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Joe

 

[Super Kal]

And who made you a Greek language expert? Which translation are you citing???

i never said i was a Greek expert, but it does not take a Greek expert to read a Bible Greek lexicon, read a Strong's exhaustive concordance, and do the research for yourself.

Go to any Greek New Testament:

Berean Greek New Testament 2016
SBL Greek New Testament 2010
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
Westcott and Hort 1881
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Tischendorf 8th Edition 1872
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Beza Greek New Testament 1598

look at Revelation 20:10, and then use a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and you will come to the same conclusion that I did...
but, if you don't want to, I'll be happy to do it for you:

Beza Greek New Testament 1598 Revelation 20:10
Καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

"εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων"

1519 εἰς / eis to Prep
3588 τοὺς / tous the Art-AMP
165 αἰῶνας / aiōnas ages N-AMP
3588 τῶν / tōn of the Art-GMP
165 αἰώνων. / aiōnōn ages N-GMP

You asked me what translation am I using... i'm not using any translation, I am using common sense to translate this on my own, because you don't have to be a Greek expert in order to translate this when you have a Greek lexicon and Strong's exhaustive concordance... but if you would like to know what English Bible translations do translate this into the above, you can read them below:

Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

Literal Standard Version
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are], and they will be tormented day and night through the ages of the ages.

Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Young's Literal Translation
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Darby Bible Translation
And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages.

Godbey New Testament
and the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages.

The English translations that I have listed above are among the most literal translations you can find. More modern translations, and other thought for thought translations will translate it differently because they are trying to convey a thought rather than just simply give an accurate literal translation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

An unbeliever is drawn to Christ when Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives them their faith.

There’s “the rain” again, which dominates your posts. There is nothing to back up your own interpretation in the rest of the scriptures…you run with it like it is some deep and meaningful thing upon which you build your faith……but it is empty, because it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Both these verse are taken out of context and do not support your view.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, the ONLY choice they will make is to accept Christ - they can no longer reject Him.

The rain again…..
2 Peter 2:20-22…
”Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

A clean pig is not clean for long if they return to the bog.

There are ZERO scriptures which support what you said above. And not only that, there are MANY scriptures which contradict your statement.

It is very apparent that you like to cherry pick your isolated verses to support what you want to believe…

Let’s look at them in plain English.…and in context….
Prov 16: 1-7….
“A man prepares the thoughts of his heart, But the answer he gives is from Jehovah.
2 All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the motives.
3 Commit to Jehovah whatever you do, And your plans will succeed.
4 Jehovah has made everything work for his purpose, Even the wicked for the day of disaster.
5 Everyone proud in heart is detestable to Jehovah. Be assured that he will not go unpunished.
6 By loyal love and faithfulness, error is atoned for, by fearing Jehovah one turns away from bad.
7 When Jehovah is pleased with a man’s ways, He causes even his enemies to be at peace with him.”

Those already committed to God will have his blessings on whatever he does…only by “fearing” God does one make the decision to obey him, because he chooses to “turn away from bad”.

Jer 10:23:23-25….
”I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him.
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
24 Correct me, O Jehovah, with judgment,
But not in your anger, that you may not reduce me to nothing.
25 Pour out your wrath on the nations who ignore you
And on the families who do not call on your name”.

Here again, adding the verses that follow shows that your interpretation is modified to fit just one verse out of context.
What did Jeremiah say? He tells us that it is God who should “direct our steps” and asks God to correct him…..but not in his anger, lest he “reduce him to nothing” (eliminate him from existence) God’s wrath will be poured out on the nations that ignore him, and the families who refuse to “call upon his name” as their God…they will receive his anger. Where is this even suggesting what you claim as it’s meaning?

Proverbs 23:24-27….Solomon wrote….
“Dishonest weights are detestable to Jehovah,
And deceptive scales are not good.
24 A man’s footsteps are directed by Jehovah;
How can a man understand his own way?
25 It is a snare for a man to cry out rashly, “Holy!”
And only later to give consideration to what he vowed.
26 A wise king sifts out the wicked
And drives the threshing wheel over them.
27 The breath of a man is the lamp of Jehovah,
Searching through his innermost being.”

What is revealed by the surrounding verses?
These are snippets of Solomon’s wisdom.
As these proverbs were written to Israel, a nation who were born into a dedicated relationship with God, their steps were directed by Jehovah. They had no choice in the matter of their worship and lifestyle…..God’s law applied to all born of Abraham. But making bad choices and disobeying God’s law given to them exclusively, is what made their God angry with them, and he punished them most severely at times to demonstrate the depth of his wrath. Again you use verses out of context to prove what you want to believe.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let’s see those verses in Ephesians ch 1 and see in context what Paul was referring to….

Ephesians 1:3-14….
”Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, 6 in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness that he kindly bestowed on us by means of his beloved one. 7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.

8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.”

First we need to identify who is “us” in these verses…..it is of course the apostles and others who received the holy spirit as a “token” of their heavenly inheritance. This “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) was introduced only after mankind fell into sin in Eden. It was the group who made up those who would rule with Christ, who were foreordained, not the individuals who made up the number. Each member, having free will, could fall away and would need to be replaced. Free will was a precious gift, not a mistake.

Most assume that “the founding of the world” was the creation of the earth as if God had predestined all that took place, and this earth was somehow to be used as a training ground for heaven…..NOT SO. The Bible never says that the life we live in this world was preparing us for heaven. Humans were designed to live on earth forever in their mortal flesh. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee everlasting life and it was freely accessible……but after taking the forbidden fruit, humans were denied access the “tree of life” and evicted from their paradise home.

The term “founding of the world” if you research the term in an Interlinear has to do with “the throwing down of seed”….the seed of life that the humans would use to populate the earth. This seed was now was corrupted by sin and passed on to all of Adam’s offspring. (Rom 5:12) It was Adam’s choice that plunged mankind into this awful sinful condition that blights the life of everyone who descended from him, making our redemption necessary in the first place. The redeemer had to come from outside of the now defective human race…..enter our champion!…..The Lord Jesus who became the “Christ” at his baptism, who volunteered to rescue Adam’s children by becoming his exact equivalent (“the last Adam”) and giving his life for ours.

Your continued reference to the “rain” is twisting the scriptures to mean something beyond what they actually say.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Let’s see those verses in Ephesians ch 1 and see in context what Paul was referring to….

Ephesians 1:3-14….
”Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, 6 in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness that he kindly bestowed on us by means of his beloved one. 7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.

8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.”

First we need to identify who is “us” in these verses…..it is of course the apostles and others who received the holy spirit as a “token” of their heavenly inheritance. This “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) was introduced only after mankind fell into sin in Eden. It was the group who made up those who would rule with Christ, who were foreordained, not the individuals who made up the number. Each member, having free will, could fall away and would need to be replaced. Free will was a precious gift, not a mistake.

Most assume that “the founding of the world” was the creation of the earth as if God had predestined all that took place, and this earth was somehow to be used as a training ground for heaven…..NOT SO. The Bible never says that the life we live in this world was preparing us for heaven. Humans were designed to live on earth forever in their mortal flesh. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee everlasting life and it was freely accessible……but after taking the forbidden fruit, humans were denied access the “tree of life” and evicted from their paradise home.

The term “founding of the world” if you research the term in an Interlinear has to do with “the throwing down of seed”….the seed of life that the humans would use to populate the earth. This seed was now was corrupted by sin and passed on to all of Adam’s offspring. (Rom 5:12) It was Adam’s choice that plunged mankind into this awful sinful condition that blights the life of everyone who descended from him, making our redemption necessary in the first place. The redeemer had to come from outside of the now defective human race…..enter our champion!…..The Lord Jesus who became the “Christ” at his baptism, who volunteered to rescue Adam’s children by becoming his exact equivalent (“the last Adam”) and giving his life for ours.

Your continued reference to the “rain” is twisting the scriptures to mean something beyond what they actually say.

Dear AuntyJane,
Your beliefs are founded upon the works of man and not Christ.

The scriptures you quoted support everything I have been stating to you - you just do not understand them because you filter them through your works based belief system. Your belief in works is nothing but filthy rags and it will NOT save you. You need the Latter Rain of the Spirit so that you can "see" that truth.

Also, your belief in your own works shows that you are trying to make yourself acceptable to God by the Old Covenant rather than the New Covenant. In other words, you still prefer the Old Wine because it is more pleasing to you than the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Under the New Covenant, Christ will do 100% of the works that will CAUSE a person's heart and mind to change. That change is what Christ calls "conversion". Conversion only happens by the works of Christ who has promised to do those works within all mankind someday. By the end of the final age, all who died in Adam will be saved by Christ. Salvation is a free gift that He gives to mankind because of His grace.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit so that they will have faith. They can have faith no other way. When Christ is ready to convert that person, He will "come again" and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The baptism of Fire (judgment) will then follow to complete the conversion process. This is the same pathway the Apostles followed and the same pathway Paul's conversion followed and the same pathway taught in the parables and in all the end-time prophecies. You just have no ability to see it right now because Christ has not healed your spiritual blindness.

As with all mankind, you are at the mercy of Christ to save you. And because Christ does all the work of a person's salvation, He deserves all the credit:

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The "all things" which Christ will create is referring to the new children of God. This is the purpose for the ages. After the last person of mankind has been converted, the ages will come to an end and the scripture below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Since Christ has not made you ready to receive His truth yet, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Joe

 

[JunChosen]

The "all things" which Christ will create is referring to the new children of God. This is the purpose for the ages. After the last person of mankind has been converted, the ages will come to an end and the scripture below will be testified to be true

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It seems from above that you believe in "Universal Salvation?"
The passages above must be read in light of Romans 11:25-27 which reads:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To God Be The Glory

 

[FaithWillDo]

It seems from above that you believe in "Universal Salvation?"
The passages above must be read in light of Romans 11:25-27 which reads:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To God Be The Glory

Dear JunChosen,
God's Word clearly teaches that Christ is mankind's Savior and that He will not stop is work until the last person of mankind is saved. Apostate believers reject this truth because it conflicts with their belief that salvation is the responsibility of each individual person. But that was only true under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant places the responsibility solely on Christ to save mankind. Mankind has no works to perform because Christ performs them all.

When the time comes for Christ to save a particular person, He will give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. After Christ has performed His spiritual work within the person, their heart and mind will be changed and they will be a new creation. Even a person's repentance and faith must be given to them by Christ. Nothing is dependent upon mankind because mankind has nothing to offer.

In this age, Christ is only converting the people who have been chosen for an early salvation. They are the Elect and are referred to as the first fruits of His harvest. They are few in number. The balance of mankind will be saved in the final age while Christ is judging them by the Law. But before they perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need for salvation.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

After the last person is saved, this scripture below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

It seems from above that you believe in "Universal Salvation?"
The passages above must be read in light of Romans 11:25-27 which reads:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To God Be The Glory

Dear JunChosen,
Since I didn't directly respond to the scripture you quoted, I will now.

I'm not sure why you posted it, but all that the scripture is saying is that there is an order to the salvation of mankind.

These verses apply:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And, behold, there are last (Gentiles) which shall be first, and there are first (Jews) which shall be last.

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

In Romans 11:25-27, Paul is stating the order to salvation. With what Paul says, it is clear that the physical Nation of Israel will be last to be saved just as Christ stated. Their salvation will commence after the "fullness" of the Gentiles have been saved. When you look at other scripture (here a little and there a little, Isa 28:9-12), it is clear that "fulness" is meaning 100% of all Gentiles.

So when will the fulness of the Gentiles be saved? It can only occur in the final age when Christ and His bride make this call:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Feast of Ingathering), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Feast of Weeks represents the harvest of First Fruits. They are the Elect.

The Feast of Ingathering represents the final and great harvest of mankind at "year's end" (the final age).

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

In the end, all who have died in Adam (all mankind) will all be made alive in Christ. This statement leaves ZERO room for any of mankind to be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Don't assume that the salvation of the Elect which is occurring now in this age as being the only harvest of mankind. It is not. Christ is the good farmer and will harvest His entire crop of mankind. Nothing can stop Him:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Jack]

"Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment."

A more honest title would be, "Jesus Lied"!

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.