A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY

[WPM]

I guess when you die.

The world is not gonna be changed.

People will be born in this world who will need to find the light.

And if this world is gonna be burned up and done away with; then so is the Kingdom of God done away with. Because human beings can no longer reproduce.

And you know the kingdom of God is promised to increase forever.

• Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the whole of creation (not just ourselves,) is yearning for deliverance from the bondage of corruption – all the result of the Fall. This is shown here to happen on the day we are glorified.
• Luke 20:27-36 tells us that only those who are worthy inherit the age to come at the Lord’s return.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that in order to be qualified to populate the new earth we need to be suitably changed. Only glorified believers can inherit the glorified earth.

The reality is, creation will be finally purged of all wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed regenerated by fire and the curse is removed. The old state that is marked by sin, death and decay is indeed regenerated by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as you insist. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

 

[MatthewG]

YES there was but it was not FULL COLLECTIVE BODY of Saints from Genesis till Today and all the way to His Second Coming.

i SEE where you have hit a speed bump in scripture = you believe Jesus said in Revelation "I am coming" and that has already been fulfilled.

When the Scripture says: "HE is Coming" it is speaking of the "Last day" when JESUS Returns which is portrayed in Rev ch19.

Either John was telling his audience what was
True about Jesus coming or he was lying.

How can I believe revelation and conclude it to be future when it was writing to a specific group of people?

That coming soon, was soon; but you wanna make it for still coming in 2023? Why do you choose to do this? So I can understand your position and it will get the focus off of myself.

 

[MatthewG]

• Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the whole of creation (not just ourselves,) is yearning for deliverance from the bondage of corruption – all the result of the Fall. This is shown here to happen on the day we are glorified.
• Luke 20:27-36 tells us that only those who are worthy inherit the age to come at the Lord’s return.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that in order to be qualified to populate the new earth we need to be suitably changed. Only glorified believers can inherit the glorified earth.

The reality is, creation will be finally purged of all wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed regenerated by fire and the curse is removed. The old state that is marked by sin, death and decay is indeed regenerated by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as you insist. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Cool man hope you will see it. I don’t see or believe the way you do but I don’t disrespect or disregard you as believing Christian.

The heavenly realm is where all are headed believers going into the kingdom and unbeliever are outside the kingdom.

 

[WPM]

I won’t be able to give you a satisfactory answer either way @WPM but I don’t put my faith on time stopping either.

But Scripture forbids your thesis.

The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. The word eschatos simply means end, last, farthest and final. These are two very incontrovertible words.

But, when is “the end” (telos)? When is going to be the final (or eschatos) day of history? When indeed is the “the last day”? When is this current decaying and dying arrangement going to be changed?

Scripture clearly and repeatedly depicts the second coming as the “last (or end, farthest or final) day (singular) of “the last (or end, farthest or final) days” (plural). It also depicts it as “the end.” The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

 

[rwb]

I disagree.

Jesus is the one who put the time limit ticker on proclaiming his return which the Father later reveals to John.

So you not liking my stance doesn’t stand on Christ or what the biblical narrative gives.

Yes, but you claim whosoever denies He has already returned make Him to be a liar??? Of course you cannot biblically prove this assumption, but you say anyway that's ok because you have faith that demands physical fulfillment, and if Christ has not already returned He is liar???

You are correct I do not like anyone who claims to speak biblical truth according to faith, then show the doctrine is not of Scripture but of the mind deceived by lies.

 

[David in NJ]

Either John was telling his audience what was
True about Jesus coming or he was lying.

How can I believe revelation and conclude it to be future when it was writing to a specific group of people?

That coming soon, was soon; but you wanna make it for still coming in 2023? Why do you choose to do this? So I can understand your position and it will get the focus off of myself.

The Holy Scripture was written for God's People = People of Faith in His WORD and not peoples of faiths.

Beginning in Genesis God said HE would send a Savior to crush the head of the Serpent/Satan = God and those who believed in HIM waited thousands of years before it came to pass.

Our faith is in trusting what God says. He said our life on this earth is a short split second blip in time compared to His Coming.

 

[MatthewG]

But Scripture forbids your thesis.

The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. The word eschatos simply means end, last, farthest and final. These are two very incontrovertible words.

But, when is “the end” (telos)? When is going to be the final (or eschatos) day of history? When indeed is the “the last day”? When is this current decaying and dying arrangement going to be changed?

Scripture clearly and repeatedly depicts the second coming as the “last (or end, farthest or final) day (singular) of “the last (or end, farthest or final) days” (plural). It also depicts it as “the end.” The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The last days always deals with the divorcement of earthly Jerusalem that is when their age had ended. That is what I believe about that.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, but you claim whosoever denies He has already returned make Him to be a liar??? Of course you cannot biblically prove this assumption, but you say anyway that's ok because you have faith that demands physical fulfillment, and if Christ has not already returned He is liar???

You are correct I do not like anyone who claims to speak biblical truth according to faith, then show the doctrine is not of Scripture but of the mind deceived by lies.

You must decide for yourself what is meant by Jesus being a liar.

You also must decide for yourself if the apostles were writing and promising about Jesus come and he didn’t show up how messed up would that be?

 

[WPM]

Cool man hope you will see it. I don’t see or believe the way you do but I don’t disrespect or disregard you as believing Christian.

The heavenly realm is where all are headed believers going into the kingdom and unbeliever are outside the kingdom.

Why do you duck around so much Scripture? It is talking about a new earth that is incorrupt? Do you believe that has arrived?

Let us establish a few absolutes:

· Glorification has not yet happened!
· We still live in corruptible bodies.
· The earth is still fallen.
· Sin and sickness, death and decay, are an ongoing reality for mankind.
· The renewal of the creature and creation are still to happen.

 

[MatthewG]

The Holy Scripture was written for God's People = People of Faith in His WORD and not peoples of faiths.

Beginning in Genesis God said HE would send a Savior to crush the head of the Serpent/Satan = God and those who believed in HIM waited thousands of years before it came to pass.

Our faith is in trusting what God says. He said our life on this earth is a short split second blip in time compared to His Coming.

I just can’t be ignorant of the community of those people in that time. I don’t believe 1000 years are literal, 2000 have already passed now.

 

[MatthewG]

Why do you duck around so much Scripture? It is talking about a new earth that is incorrupt? Do you believe that has arrived?

Let us establish a few absolutes:

· Glorification has not yet happened!
· We still live in corruptible bodies.
· The earth is still fallen.
· Sin and sickness, death and decay, are an ongoing reality for mankind.
· The renewal of the creature and creation are still to happen.

Yeah in are earthly vessel where God dwells in which one looks onward to a heavenly place to be where the kingdom is.

Most people seem to wanna stick to this earth; from my understanding I don’t believe in being on a material earth after this life, but to be with God in the kingdom.

That is what seems to be our hope going on to resurrected, no more sorrow, no more worry about death.

 

[WPM]

I just can’t be ignorant of the community of those people in that time. I don’t believe 1000 years are literal, 2000 have already passed now.

So, when did the millennium start and finish? When did Satan's little season start and finish?

 

[MatthewG]

People in this life in faith build up themselves spiritually, and in the day they die they will have stored treasures in heaven and be rewarded and it’s all because of faith and being made right with God through Jesus, which a person lives and serves God and at the end of life God rewards then a spiritually body and they indwell in the kingdom, who are believers and unbelievers are outside the kingdom.

 

[MatthewG]

So, when did the millennium start and finish? When did Satan's little season start and finish?

Sorry I can’t tell you.

Started by tempting Jesus, the during acts seemed everything stopped for a moment until eventually the 144,000 was sealed and perhaps during Nero’s reign that was the nearing closer to the end of the age, and the fact of Jerusalem going up in fire for having killed the son of God implies divorcement.

And even if can’t give you a satisfactory answer, I’m still gonna believe the way I do because I have become so ensconced by the victory of Christ is almost always there on my heart to praise God for all his sons doings.

 

[WPM]

Yeah in are earthly vessel where God dwells in which one looks onward to a heavenly place to be where the kingdom is.

Most people seem to wanna stick to this earth; from my understanding I don’t believe in being on a material earth after this life, but to be with God in the kingdom.

That is what seems to be our hope going on to resurrected, no more sorrow, no more worry about death.

Are you serious?

Job prophesied in Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.”

Jesus promises us that when He comes we will:

• “inherit (kleronomeo) the earth” (Matthew 5:5).
• “inherit (kleronomeo) the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34).

The full and final and perfect manifestation of the inheritance arrives at the second coming when Christ will usher in eternal glory.

James 2:5 tells us: “heirs (kleronomos) of the kingdom”

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait `upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Again, this is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

The wicked are not worthy to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come.

Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.

Psalm 37:34 continues, “Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

This is the truth that is repeated by Christ in the New Testament. We see that confirmed in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

This current earth must be perfected. It must be glorified. It must be brought back to the paradise it was before the fall. Every time Scripture speaks of the believer receiving his inheritance (the kingdom/earth) it also shows the wicked receiving their eternal punishment.

The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.

Proverbs 2:21-22: “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.”

Proverbs 10:30: “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

A perfect new regenerated earth is the reward of the righteous.

According to Scripture, the ungodly are forbidden from this new glorified earth. The wicked are left outside the eternal kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9 also confirms: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

This does not sound like annihilation!

As we read earlier, 1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

So, who or what inherit the kingdom of God? Glorified saints!

 

[WPM]

Sorry I can’t tell you.

Started by tempting Jesus, the during acts seemed everything stopped for a moment until eventually the 144,000 was sealed and perhaps during Nero’s reign that was the nearing closer to the end of the age, and the fact of Jerusalem going up in fire for having killed the son of God implies divorcement.

And even if can’t give you a satisfactory answer, I’m still gonna believe the way I do because I have become so ensconced by the victory of Christ is almost always there on my heart to praise God for all his sons doings.

Really? So, it started at the beginning of Christ's ministry: when (approximately) did/does it end?

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for sharing your belief that you hold. I have not to say about it personally, @WPM. It’s not that you have stumped me it is obvious you are going to have your insights and information from the Bible to make the case known.

I believe what Paul talks about in receiving a spiritual body, and also to dwell in a heavenly kingdom, perhaps many people only thing 144,000 people will be there but those were the first people to go onward there in my opinion. There would be more afterwards.

 

[David in NJ]

I just can’t be ignorant of the community of those people in that time. I don’t believe 1000 years are literal, 2000 have already passed now.

You are not responsible for that community of time. God is the Author and Finisher of Faith for everyone whom HE calls.

 

[MatthewG]

Really? So, it started at the beginning of Christ's ministry: when (approximately) did/does it end?

Idk did it? It’s your turn to go on and just seek out, because I will be honest and tell you im a fallible person ; but hey ya go the Bible man, I don’t need these instigating questions.

You decide for yourself.

 

[MatthewG]

You are not responsible for that community of time. God is the Author and Finisher of Faith for everyone whom HE calls.

I was never responsible for them? Where did you get that from?