23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

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covenantee

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Yes, I did say that, but there was also a "but" in that post which clarified my perspective. So, you are trying to justify your posts by misquoting what I have previously posted.
Explain how a verbatim copy of your original text is a misquote.

"Yes, what you have quoted from the scriptures is true" is itself true, and nothing following the "but" invalidates it.

You neglected to answer my question.

How does my post deviate from the evidence of the Scriptures that I quoted?
 

Jay Ross

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I would say the same of your claims, you state all Israel will be saved, and you can't even define who this Israel is Jay, perhaps you need to sit on the bench and watch the ball game from the sidelines

Well, I have been trying to sit on the sidelines by saying that it is God who will chose who is and who is not of Israel, however you want me to define who is Israel when nearly 2,000 years have passed since 70 AD when the Roman Empire destroyed the temple and scattered the Israelites to the four corners of the earth. Even the Nation of Israel has difficulties in defining who is and who is not an Israelite. There is not always a tracible documented path which provides clear evidence for many who claim they have Israelite heritage.

That is why I have said that your question is a loaded question in that not even you can, with any reliability, identify who has or has not an Israeli heritage. I am happy for God to make that determination for Himself.
 

Jay Ross

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Explain how a verbatim copy of your original text is a misquote.

"Yes, what you have quoted from the scriptures is true" is itself true, and nothing following the "but" invalidates it.

You neglected to answer my question.

How does my post deviate from the evidence of the Scriptures that I quoted?

But not in your #578 post that I had responded too. You only quoted the first sentence of a previous post which I had made which had contained the clarifying "but" in.

Now are you happy for God to make the determination as to who is or is not an Israelite that will be saved or are you trying to hem God into a particular outcome to suit your beliefs.
 

Truth7t7

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Well, I have been trying to sit on the sidelines by saying that it is God who will chose who is and who is not of Israel, however you want me to define who is Israel when nearly 2,000 years have passed since 70 AD when the Roman Empire destroyed the temple and scattered the Israelites to the four corners of the earth. Even the Nation of Israel has difficulties in defining who is and who is not an Israelite. There is not always a tracible documented path which provides clear evidence for many who claim they have Israelite heritage.

That is why I have said that your question is a loaded question in that not even you can, with any reliability, identify who has or has not an Israeli heritage. I am happy for God to make that determination for Himself.
No loaded question whatsoever, covenantee has clearly shown you the Israel of God that you reject

God's Israel isnt gaged on Jacob's DNA in a physical body as you claim, the Bible clearly explains who the true Jew is below

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
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covenantee

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But not in your #578 post that I had responded too. You only quoted the first sentence of a previous post which I had made which had contained the clarifying "but" in.

Now are you happy for God to make the determination as to who is or is not an Israelite that will be saved or are you trying to hem God into a particular outcome to suit your beliefs.
I repeat, what followed your "but" did not invalidate what preceded it.

Unless what you meant to say was, "Yes, what you have quoted from the scriptures is true, but what you have quoted from the scriptures is false."

Now, if you are aware of a determination or outcome that God has made, disproving those for "of Israel" and "all Israel" in Romans 9:6-8, please present it.

With Scripture, of course.

Still awaiting your answer.

How does my post deviate from the evidence of the Scriptures that I quoted?
 

covenantee

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Well, I have been trying to sit on the sidelines by saying that it is God who will chose who is and who is not of Israel, however you want me to define who is Israel when nearly 2,000 years have passed since 70 AD when the Roman Empire destroyed the temple and scattered the Israelites to the four corners of the earth. Even the Nation of Israel has difficulties in defining who is and who is not an Israelite. There is not always a tracible documented path which provides clear evidence for many who claim they have Israelite heritage.

That is why I have said that your question is a loaded question in that not even you can, with any reliability, identify who has or has not an Israeli heritage. I am happy for God to make that determination for Himself.
Genetically, the entire human race is Israel, because after more than three millennia of natural worldwide genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's DNA is present in every individual.

Which means that the entire human race will be saved.

That's called universalism.
 

Jay Ross

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No loaded question whatsoever, covenantee has clearly shown you the Israel of God that you reject

God's Israel isnt gaged on Jacob's DNA in a physical body as you claim, the Bible clearly explains who the true Jew is below

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I repeat, what followed your "but" did not invalidate what preceded it.

Unless what you meant to say was, "Yes, what you have quoted from the scriptures is true, but what you have quoted from the scriptures is false."

Now, if you are aware of a determination or outcome that God has made, disproving those for "of Israel" and "all Israel" in Romans 9:6-8, please present it.

With Scripture, of course.

Still awaiting your answer.

How does my post deviate from the evidence of the Scriptures that I quoted?
Genetically, the entire human race is Israel, because after more than three millennia of natural worldwide genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's DNA is present in every individual.

Which means that the entire human race will be saved.

That's called universalism.

Why is it so important for you to have defined, who is and who is not an Israelite? Your responses feel like legalism, on your part.

God clearly said that He would show loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His statutes, in Exodus 20: 4-6, and that the Iniquities of the Israelite fathers of the first and second ages of their existence would be visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth age of the Israelite's existence. Hosea 6:1-3 clearly speak of the two days that God has torn them, so that he may heal them; that he has struck Israel down, during the third and the fourth ages of their existence and that he will bind them up after the completion of the fourth age of their existence on the third day spoken about in Hosea 6:1-3..

It is really God's choice as to who He will bind up from among the remanent of Israel. For He desires steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

As I keep saying, Who God will draw to Himself from among the descendants of Israel, is above my pay grade to determine. My only responsibility is to focus on my needs and obligations with respect to my relationship with God.

Are you both focusing on your relationship with God or are you being busybodies with respect to who God is drawing to Himself.
 

Truth7t7

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Why is it so important for you to have defined, who is and who is not an Israelite? Your responses feel like legalism, on your part.

God clearly said that He would show loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His statutes, in Exodus 20: 4-6, and that the Iniquities of the Israelite fathers of the first and second ages of their existence would be visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth age of the Israelite's existence. Hosea 6:1-3 clearly speak of the two days that God has torn them, so that he may heal them; that he has struck Israel down, during the third and the fourth ages of their existence and that he will bind them up after the completion of the fourth age of their existence on the third day spoken about in Hosea 6:1-3..

It is really God's choice as to who He will bind up from among the remanent of Israel. For He desires steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

As I keep saying, Who God will draw to Himself from among the descendants of Israel, is above my pay grade to determine. My only responsibility is to focus on my needs and obligations with respect to my relationship with God.

Are you both focusing on your relationship with God or are you being busybodies with respect to who God is drawing to Himself.
Once Again

God's Israel isnt gaged on Jacob's DNA in a physical body as you claim, the Bible clearly explains who the true Jew is below

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 

covenantee

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Why is it so important for you to have defined, who is and who is not an Israelite? Your responses feel like legalism, on your part.

God clearly said that He would show loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His statutes, in Exodus 20: 4-6, and that the Iniquities of the Israelite fathers of the first and second ages of their existence would be visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth age of the Israelite's existence. Hosea 6:1-3 clearly speak of the two days that God has torn them, so that he may heal them; that he has struck Israel down, during the third and the fourth ages of their existence and that he will bind them up after the completion of the fourth age of their existence on the third day spoken about in Hosea 6:1-3..

It is really God's choice as to who He will bind up from among the remanent of Israel. For He desires steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

As I keep saying, Who God will draw to Himself from among the descendants of Israel, is above my pay grade to determine. My only responsibility is to focus on my needs and obligations with respect to my relationship with God.

Are you both focusing on your relationship with God or are you being busybodies with respect to who God is drawing to Himself.
The messages of Romans 9:6-8 et al reveal that God's covenant criteria for identifying His Chosen People are the same for Israel as for the entirety of humankind.

They have nothing to do with ancestry or ethnicity or any other physical factor. These do not identify God's Chosen People.

Rather, they have to do exclusively with two genes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

These two spiritual genes determine the relationship with God.

For us, for Israel, and for every individual.

And thus, as Scripture declares in Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:14 and elsewhere,

In Christ,

There is neither Jew nor Greek.
 
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Jay Ross

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Once Again

God's Israel isnt gaged on Jacob's DNA in a physical body as you claim, the Bible clearly explains who the true Jew is below

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The messages of Romans 9:6-8 et al reveal that God's covenant criteria for identifying His Chosen People are the same for Israel as for the entirety of humankind.

They have nothing to do with ancestry or ethnicity or any other physical factor. These do not identify God's Chosen People.

Rather, they have to do exclusively with two genes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

These two spiritual genes determine the relationship with God.

For us, for Israel, and for every individual.

And thus, as Scripture declares in Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:14 and elsewhere,

In Christ,

There is neither Jew nor Greek.

Once again, I believe that you are missing what I have written in my posts.

You are focusing on the "Law" not the heart of God for His people whether they are of Israeli or gentile descendants.

Your argument is not with me but with God as I see it. Why not take it up with God instead of me to find your answers.
 

Truth7t7

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Are you both focusing on your relationship with God or are you being busybodies with respect to who God is drawing to Himself.
We are keeping your false teachings in check, God has no respect of persons based upon Jacob's DNA as you have claimed "All Israel Will Be Saved"

All promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised seed

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
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Jay Ross

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We are keeping your false teachings in check, God has no respect of persons based upon Jacob's DNA as you have claimed "All Israel Will Be Saved"

All promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised seed

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Wow, so you are playing at being God because you do not trust God to keep false teaching in check. Is that because your understanding does not line up with what God has had written and you want your false teaching to dominate over God's truth.

As for what I have posted, it is in accordance with what is recorded in God's word. I have not, in what I have posted, attempted to define who God will gather to himself in the End Times. You on the other hand want to define who God can draw to himself by defining who is an Israelite and whether or not they should be saved in your opinion.

It seems to me that you have worn out the welcome mat as far as having a conversation on any topic.

Goodbye for now.
 

Truth7t7

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You on the other hand want to define who God can draw to himself by defining who is an Israelite and whether or not they should be saved in your opinion.

It seems to me that you have worn out the welcome mat as far as having a conversation on any topic.

Goodbye for now.
The Israel Of God Is The Church, And Not A Selected Group Of Humans That Are In The Lineage Of Jacob's DNA As You Have Claimed

"All Israel Will Be Saved" when the last soul has been added to "Israel The Church" on Earth

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV
3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,
an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 
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covenantee

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Once again, I believe that you are missing what I have written in my posts.

You are focusing on the "Law" not the heart of God for His people whether they are of Israeli or gentile descendants.

Your argument is not with me but with God as I see it. Why not take it up with God instead of me to find your answers.
I am glad to see that you recognize that God identifies His People without regard to their ancestry or ethnicity, " whether they are of Israeli or gentile descendants", as you expressed.

The question then remains, by what criteria does He identify His People?

If you believe that faith and obedience are not those criteria exclusively, then please provide Scriptural evidence.
 
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covenantee

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The Israel Of God Is The Church, And Not A Selected Group Of Humans That Are In The Lineage Of Jacob's DNA As You Have Claimed

"All Israel Will Be Saved" when the last soul has been added to "Israel The Church" on Earth

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV
3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,
an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Amen bro.
 

Timtofly

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Genetically, the entire human race is Israel, because after more than three millennia of natural worldwide genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's DNA is present in every individual.

Which means that the entire human race will be saved.

That's called universalism.
So those doing genetic testing to show ancestry are just throwing darts at a spread sheet of past ethnic nations?

Wherever the dart lands, that is where you came from?
 

covenantee

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So those doing genetic testing to show ancestry are just throwing darts at a spread sheet of past ethnic nations?

Wherever the dart lands, that is where you came from?
Ancestral genetic ubiquity is established mathematically.

Example:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

BY CARL ZIMMER

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent, not just Europe. It will also probably keep people puzzling over the complexities of genealogy.
 

Keraz

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Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:

Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..

Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18


So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:

1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham .

2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.

3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20

So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

WE Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8


This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Jewish Israel have been broken off from the Olive Tree and can only be grafted back, by having Christian faith.

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26
Ref: logostelos.info
 

Truth7t7

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So those doing genetic testing to show ancestry are just throwing darts at a spread sheet of past ethnic nations?

Wherever the dart lands, that is where you came from?
Reality is, those participants in the DNA testing fill out information on what they believe their lineage is, they take the test and are given info on exactly what they want to hear, and those doing the testing get the $Rich$

Sorta like going to a fortune teller
 

Jay Ross

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I am glad to see that you recognize that God identifies His People

But that has been what I have been saying all along, Ding Dong. Who God calls to Himself is way above my pay grade.

As God told the Israelites at Mt Sinai, "God will love those who love Him and keep His statutes." Yes, God draws us to Himself, but it is our responsibility to actually do the responding to His Love for us.

God has also said that He will deal with the "fat" sheep who have muddied the waters from which the sheep drink.

Why must My flock feed on what your, {i.e., the shepherds' who have been tending the sheep}, feet have trampled, and drink what your feet have muddied?’​

Oh well, I know that you have good intentions, but your zeal is your undoing.