Who is the Antichrist? Let's Put a Name on Him.

[Ronald David Bruno]

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with why the fir trees rejoice when he is laid down.
Do you not understand that Jeremiah 10 is talking about customs of the people that have to do with the fir tree. You can't read the following and figure out what those customs are?

Jeremiah 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Does anyone understand this?

A theme spoken throughout the Bible in many different ways speaks to the Israelites ( and us) about not conforming to the ways of the world.
Also we can see many people that appear harmless, not evil doers per se but not really doing any good either - like the "luke warm" Laodicians that God wanted to vomit out of His mouth. So the message again is don't be drawn in by these folks either, Satan is subtle with hsi deceptions sometimes.

*** Caution: If you are implying that these verses have something to do with Christmas trees (a prophetic utterance in the 6th century BC about a tradition that would be started 1200 years in the future), I'll have a good laugh and leave the conversation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Here is another example of how prophesy works:

Zechariah 4
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

It is all in dreams and symbols. It is NOT to be taken literally.

Also on that note, notice something?

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

If the first anointed one is Jesus (or David, depending on who you ask), then who is the second one?

Revelation 11

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Dead for 3 days then ressurected and ascended to heaven... sound familiar? This time there are two of them. Who's the second one?

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hmmm so if the first Adam is Adam, and the last Adam is Jesus, then who else could it be?

That's a stretch. Adam wasn't an Israelite, from the seed of Abraham, nor a symbolic candlestick in the Old Temple, one who was under the Law. Moses and Elijah were. They also appeared with Jesus at the Mount Of Transfiguration. Some think Enoch and Elijah will be the Two Witnesses, since they didn't die and were taken up.
And to think Jesus is one of these Two Witnesses is a real stretch of the Amillennialist's imagination. Revelation 6-22 speaks of our present time forward into the future.
These two witnesses might show up this year? I'll get back to you when this and many events in Revelation happens ... if we haven't been raptured yet?

 

[Adam]

Moses and Elijah already passed on the torch, they did their job.

 

[The Light]

*** Caution: If you are implying that these verses have something to do with Christmas trees

No. I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that the verses are talking about Christmas trees. I mean listen to what they say.

1. One goes out to the forest with an axe and cuts a tree out of the forest. This certainly isn't something that you do with a Christmas tree. If the verses were talking about Christmas trees, they would say something like this: One gets in his truck, goes out to the store and buys a tree with money. He loads the tree in his truck and goes home. So that right there proves, without a doubt, that the verses cannot be talking about a Christmas tree. We need go no further, but we will.

2. They deck this tree with silver and gold. Who decks their tree, or decorates their tree with silver and gold on Christmas? That right there also proves that the verses can't be talking about Christmas trees. No one decks their tree with silver and gold.

3. They fasten it with nails with a hammer. Here's more proof, though none is necessary at this point. If these verses were talking about a Christmas tree it would say: They take a Christmas tree stand and fill it with water. They put the tree in this stand of water so it will not dry out.

******* So in conclusion, these verses can't possibly be talking about Christmas trees as the proof provided above is undeniable. *******

Jeremiah 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

[Brakelite]

You still avoid the content of my post. I drew direct parallels between the little horn and the FP.

All based on poor exegesis, and I will tell you why.

• The 4th beast of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome.
• The 10 horns which grew from it's head were not individuals, but lesser kingdoms, yet were still Roman.
• All 10 were developed by the time the little horn began it's existence.
• Pagan Rome, determined by most historians, was finished in the western hemisphere by 476ad.
• In it's place stood 10 kingdoms. They were as follows... 1. The Bergundians (later to become Switzerland)...2. Anglo Saxons (Great Britain)...3. Franks (France)...4. Allemani (Germany)...5. Lombards (Italy)...6. Suevi (Portugal)...7. Visigoths (Spain). Which leaves 3, none of whom have any remnant surviving in Europe, these 3 having been uprooted before the little horn before they had opportunity to settle a territory. They were the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths. History leaves an incredible record in blood written across ancient European history attesting to the fact that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had ultimate responsibility for the demise of those powers. The above history is but one criteria that identifies the church as the little horn. I can add another 9 at least prophetic proofs to confirm.

The second beast on Revelation 13 is not the RCC. I can confidently prove the first beast is the RCC, and the second beast being apostate protestant America. I can offer many reasons in support of this, from history and scripture. The second beast is not the Antichrist. It's the first.

 

[The Light]

All based on poor exegesis, and I will tell you why.

• The 4th beast of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome.
• The 10 horns which grew from it's head were not individuals, but lesser kingdoms, yet were still Roman.
• All 10 were developed by the time the little horn began it's existence.
• Pagan Rome, determined by most historians, was finished in the western hemisphere by 476ad.
• In it's place stood 10 kingdoms. They were as follows... 1. The Bergundians (later to become Switzerland)...2. Anglo Saxons (Great Britain)...3. Franks (France)...4. Allemani (Germany)...5. Lombards (Italy)...6. Suevi (Portugal)...7. Visigoths (Spain). Which leaves 3, none of whom have any remnant surviving in Europe, these 3 having been uprooted before the little horn before they had opportunity to settle a territory. They were the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths. History leaves an incredible record in blood written across ancient European history attesting to the fact that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had ultimate responsibility for the demise of those powers. The above history is but one criteria that identifies the church as the little horn. I can add another 9 at least prophetic proofs to confirm.

The second beast on Revelation 13 is not the RCC. I can confidently prove the first beast is the RCC, and the second beast being apostate protestant America. I can offer many reasons in support of this, from history and scripture. The second beast is not the Antichrist. It's the first.

Do I understand that you are saying that the beast of the sea is the RCC?

 

[ewq1938]

The second beast on Revelation 13 is not the RCC. I can confidently prove the first beast is the RCC,

Neither is the RCC.

and the second beast being apostate protestant America.

Nope. The second beast is a man, a false prophet who works miracles to deceive people and his name adds up to 666.

I can offer many reasons in support of this, from history and scripture. The second beast is not the Antichrist. It's the first.

No, it's the second and that perfectly matches the AC Paul described calling him the man of sin...the again, singular man who performs miracles to deceive. The traditions of your denomination are going to wrongly influence you so only rising above those teachings will you ever have a chance to see things clearly.

 

[The Light]

Nope. The second beast is a man, a false prophet who works miracles to deceive people and his name adds up to 666.

I'm thinking that the second beast causes the world to worship the 1st beast and it is the 1st beast who adds to 666. Reread Revelation 13 and see what you think.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm thinking that the second beast causes the world to worship the 1st beast and it is the 1st beast who adds to 666. Reread Revelation 13 and see what you think.

I believe the first beast is not a man but a kingdom of ten smaller kingdoms established within 7 mountains. Therefore the name of the beast which is the name of a man adding up to 666 would have to be about the second beast.

To make a point, I will present some of Rev 13 but with Hitler and the Nazi's:

13:11 And I beheld another beast (HITLER) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the NAZI PARTY before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the NAZI PARTY, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And HITLER doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the NAZI PARTY; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the NAZI PARTY, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the NAZI PARTY, that the image of the NAZI PARTY should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the NAZI PARTY should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast (HITLER BEAST), or the number of his (HITLER) name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the (SECOND) beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here a man is causing worship of the political party he owns, so it's really about worshiping him, not another man.

Of course Rev 13 is about a new man and party/government not Hitler but this is how I see the first beast as a government, and the second as the AC man who wants his government to be worshiped.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

All based on poor exegesis, and I will tell you why.

Well, that is a given via 1938

• The 4th beast of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome.

Well, lets just say Rome, all of the Beasts were "Pagan", I think I know where this is headed, I always hear the same phrases about Pagan Rome by those who push the RCC angle, which is in error of course.

• The 10 horns which grew from it's head were not individuals, but lesser kingdoms, yet were still Roman.

That is not what it means, 10 = Completion, the Ten Commandments are a stand in for God's complete laws. The 10 Plagues completed God's wrath on Egypt, the Church of Smyrna was to have tribulation for 10 days, which means for the complete Church Age. The 10 Virgin Brides means Complete Christendom etc. etc. etc. So, the 10 that the "Little Horn" is born amongst (into) simply means Complete Europe Reunited. They would not cleave or come together, as a single government like Rome, because God would not allow it, but after Israel was reborn in 1948, the Council of Rome came forth in like 1956 or 57, so they came together AND the Anti-Christ/Little Horn was born in the E.U. (in Greece) , its not that complicated, and it has nothing to do with the RCC.

Pagan Rome, determined by most historians, was finished in the western hemisphere by 476ad.

Rome "The Beast" was taken down by the Church, we delivered the mortal wound to the "Beast System" in the Western World via the Gospel driving out the Pagan Cultures and eventually Rome under Constantine went from a Beast who came against the Church to a conveyor belt of the Gospel of Jesus Christ via the Pax Romanus. The Beast could not overcome the Church, Jesus told us the gates of hell will not overcome his church, so that is what took the Beast System down in Europe.

n it's place stood 10 kingdoms. They were as follows... 1. The Bergundians (later to become Switzerland)...2. Anglo Saxons (Great Britain)...3. Franks (France)...4. Allemani (Germany)...5. Lombards (Italy)...6. Suevi (Portugal)...7. Visigoths (Spain). Which leaves 3, none of whom have any remnant surviving in Europe, these 3 having been uprooted before the little horn before they had opportunity to settle a territory. They were the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths. History leaves an incredible record in blood written across ancient European history attesting to the fact that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had ultimate responsibility for the demise of those powers. The above history is but one criteria that identifies the church as the little horn. I can add another 9 at least prophetic proofs to confirm.

This is all made up bogus stuff from the cult the Worldwide Church of God via Herbert W. Armstrong. The 10 simply means Complete Europe reunited. Satan spins these tall tales all of the time. The Beast was a Gentile King EVERY TIME, nothing else. The RCC angle and the Islamic angle are both head fakes by Satan.

The second beast on Revelation 13 is not the RCC. I can confidently prove the first beast is the RCC, and the second beast being apostate protestant America. I can offer many reasons in support of this, from history and scripture. The second beast is not the Antichrist. It's the first.

FIRST BEAST IS SEEN HERE:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he(MAN) deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image(MAN). These both were cast alive into a lake of fire(The RCC is not ALIVE and CAST into hell) burning with brimstone.

Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spakeThe Anti-Christ) I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

So, this Beast is a MAN not the RCC how do you guys go down these rabbit holes?

The 2nd Beast is also a MAN, he will be the False Prophet, a Jewish High Priest gone rogue.

 

[Jay Ross]

All based on poor exegesis, and I will tell you why.

• The 4th beast of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome.
• The 10 horns which grew from it's head were not individuals, but lesser kingdoms, yet were still Roman.
• All 10 were developed by the time the little horn began it's existence.
• Pagan Rome, determined by most historians, was finished in the western hemisphere by 476ad.
• In it's place stood 10 kingdoms. They were as follows... 1. The Bergundians (later to become Switzerland)...2. Anglo Saxons (Great Britain)...3. Franks (France)...4. Allemani (Germany)...5. Lombards (Italy)...6. Suevi (Portugal)...7. Visigoths (Spain). Which leaves 3, none of whom have any remnant surviving in Europe, these 3 having been uprooted before the little horn before they had opportunity to settle a territory. They were the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths. History leaves an incredible record in blood written across ancient European history attesting to the fact that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had ultimate responsibility for the demise of those powers. The above history is but one criteria that identifies the church as the little horn. I can add another 9 at least prophetic proofs to confirm.

The second beast on Revelation 13 is not the RCC. I can confidently prove the first beast is the RCC, and the second beast being apostate protestant America. I can offer many reasons in support of this, from history and scripture. The second beast is not the Antichrist. It's the first.

Well, your understanding of what has gone down so far and the near future judgement of the beasts is lacking to say the least.

The Roman Empire is not the fourth beast, however, it was possibly one of the four manifesting heads of the third beast. after it had subdued the Grecian Empire.

What you are missing is the recognition of the spiritual entities that have stirred up the sea of humanity to manifest the dominate characteristics of the respective four beasts.

Satan has built on the lie that came out of the reformation and is the dominate belief about the entities of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12.

Shalom

{Correction made for a clearer understanding.}

 

[The Light]

I believe the first beast is not a man but a kingdom of ten smaller kingdoms established within 7 mountains. Therefore the name of the beast which is the name of a man adding up to 666 would have to be about the second beast.

To make a point, I will present some of Rev 13 but with Hitler and the Nazi's:

13:11 And I beheld another beast (HITLER) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the NAZI PARTY before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the NAZI PARTY, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And HITLER doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the NAZI PARTY; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the NAZI PARTY, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the NAZI PARTY, that the image of the NAZI PARTY should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the NAZI PARTY should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast (HITLER BEAST), or the number of his (HITLER) name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the (SECOND) beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here a man is causing worship of the political party he owns, so it's really about worshiping him, not another man.

Of course Rev 13 is about a new man and party/government not Hitler but this is how I see the first beast as a government, and the second as the AC man who wants his government to be worshiped.

Interesting, but I don't think it is correct.

Here are the characteristics of the 1st beast, the beast of the sea.

********Summary*********

These are the characteristics of a man.
1. The beast of the sea was and is not and will ascend out of the bottomless pit
2. The beast of the sea is an Assyrian
3. The beast of the sea is a king of Babylon
4. The number of the beast is 666.
5. The fir trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice when he is laid down.
6. He is the eighth king and is of the seven.
7. He has the deadly wound of the sword and lives.

These are the characteristics of a man.

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting, but I don't think it is correct.

Here are the characteristics of the 1st beast, the beast of the sea.

********Summary*********

These are the characteristics of a man.
1. The beast of the sea was and is not and will ascend out of the bottomless pit

How can a man ascend from such a place? How can a man be "was and is not" etc?

2. The beast of the sea is an Assyrian
3. The beast of the sea is a king of Babylon

I don't see that mentioned in Revelation, or anywhere.

4. The number of the beast is 666.

The second beast matches this better as he is the AC.

5. The fir trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice when he is laid down.

That isn't said about the sea beast though.

6. He is the eighth king and is of the seven.

Or that is the land beast.

7. He has the deadly wound of the sword and lives.

A man does not have 7 mountains with ten kings/kingdoms where one mountain received a wound and the wound healed. It was one area of the world that was wounded by a sword (symbiolic of war) and the healing is recovery post-war.

 

[The Light]

How can a man ascend from such a place? How can a man be "was and is not" etc?

Good question. I think I have the answer and will get to that next.

I don't see that mentioned in Revelation, or anywhere.

You will find it in Isaiah 14. There are a few other places in the old testament also.

The second beast matches this better as he is the AC.

I think it is the first beast.

That isn't said about the sea beast though.

If you understood why the fir trees rejoice and the cedars of Lebanon when he is laid down, you would know for sure it is the sea beast.

Or that is the land beast.

The land beast is the 7th king. The 7th king is the rider on the white horse, who is given the stephanos crown and will lead the New World Order, which will be the UN.
We know for sure that the sea beast is the 8th king because the 8th king is of the 7. Only someone that was and is not, and will come again can do that. We can actually know that he is of the 1st 5 kings that have fallen as "HE WAS" when Revelation was written. So the eighth king has to be of the 1st 5 kings.

A man does not have 7 mountains with ten kings/kingdoms where one mountain received a wound and the wound healed. It was one area of the world that was wounded by a sword (symbiolic of war) and the healing is recovery post-war.

A little knowledge will clear this difficult point up.

Also, if you read Daniel 7 and compare to the sea beast, you will find that the little horn is the sea beast.

 

[The Light]

**************Additional Fact***************

In 2003 the United States went to war with Iraq. It was Gulf War 2. Our supposed premise of going to war with Iraq was the infamous "weapons of mass destruction". The United Nations voted and told the United States not to attack Iraq. The United States did as they pleased and attacked Iraq anyway.

No weapons of mass destruction we found.

Why were we really there?

 

[ewq1938]

If you understood why the fir trees rejoice and the cedars of Lebanon when he is laid down, you would know for sure it is the sea beast.

But that is unrelated to the sea beast. We can't just pick things out and say they belong to that beast. The only thing even close to it would be the 4th beast of Daniel.

The land beast is the 7th king. The 7th king is the rider on the white horse, who is given the stephanos crown and will lead the New World Order, which will be the UN.
We know for sure that the sea beast is the 8th king because the 8th king is of the 7.

Doesn't make sense that the first beast is the 8th when the second beast is somehow a king before the first beast.

In Daniel, the ten horned beast is a kingdom, and the little horn is a singular person who takes control of the kingdom beast. Wouldn't that be the same situation with the ten horned beast and this land beast who just happens to have two little horns? Isn't John's second beast just an updated little horn person? They both come second, and take authority and power over the ten horned beast.

Only someone that was and is not, and will come again can do that.

But satan is described as a dragon (a beast) with ten horns and 7 heads BEFORE the ten horned 7 headed beast even rises to power....seems that beast is a government type of thing satan likes to give power to so much that satan himself is described as this thing.

Also, if you read Daniel 7 and compare to the sea beast, you will find that the little horn is the sea beast.

That makes no sense. How can the little horn be the ten horned beast when in Daniel the little horn grows up LAST on the ten horned beast and rules that beast?

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet with two little horns comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

 

[Enoch111]

It's going to be important very soon, for some to know who the Antichrist is.

His name will not be known until he actually presents himself to the world (and to Israel) as its "Savior". It could even be "Judas" (just like Judas Maccabeus who is also shown as a rider on a white horse).

 

[strepho]

Revelation chapter 12 to document satan is in heaven right now, as Accuser of our brethren. Michael and his angels boot satan and fallen angels to earth, 6th trump. Second thessalonians chapter 2, the son of perdition will go into temple of God, claiming to be God. Theirs many misguided preachers teaching traditions of men and false doctrine. When false preachers mess up their prophecy books, just write more. HalL Lindsey is a example of false brethren. The books are lies, and nonsense. Daniel says 7 year tribulation. Revelation chapter 9:5. , the time was shortened to 5 months period. The son of perdition, satan as antichrist, has only 5 months period. Second Timothy chapter 4, a time will come when they wont endure sound doctrine. Its here. The rapture theory is lies. Many denominations and shepherds are setting people up for antichrist, teaching traditions of men. There not going to give up their security blanket. They will fight for their traditions to the death. IEPEVUS in Greek means = priest, elected and separated by God. The position for Election can't be volunteered for. EKLETOS in Greek means = divine Selection. Romans chapter 8 and first Peter chapter 1 to document. The election won't worship antichrist near future. Majority will, their biblically illiterate. Read revelation chapter 13. APSIINTHOS in Greek means = Wormwood, bitterness. This bitterness is here, its false doctrine. Churches lying to people and, misleading people. Some churches won't teach revelation. Won't teach who kenites are. Won't teach parable of the fig tree. Some churches say old testament is irrelevant. Get the picture. Can you see why this bitterness is overtaking people. Churches will lead congregations right into satan's camp. Were warned by second Timothy chapter 4. I documented this and gave it in the Greek language. I told the truth. Brothers, bitterness is setting people up for downfall.

 

[ewq1938]

Won't teach who kenites are.

Haven't seen a Shepherd's Chapel person in a long time. Why don't you tell everyone exactly who the kenites are?

 

[Brakelite]

No such thing, weeks of years is man's invention

Daniel wrote (Seventy Weeks) if he meant 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

Well then, I assume you have an accurate prophetic and historically confirmed fulfillment of those 490 literal days yes? And I assume you agree with the historians and Bible scholars with 457BC as the beginning of that period, and you have worked out exactly what took place 70 years later, 387BC?