Another Premillennial absurdity

[rwb]

Really? Okay, how does this answer the objection concerning the specific promise Paul has in view? Hint: he tells you about the promise in the first 5 verses of Romans 9.

But what does vs 6 tell you?

Romans 9:6 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Why would Paul say native born Israelite is not of Israel?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've already answered this in my reply #738 to Randy. Paul clears up the misunderstanding of who belongs to Israel that shall be saved. The ethnic nation of Israel saw themselves exclusively as those ordained by God for eternal life. Paul takes great pains to prove why ethnicity is not a cause for celebration, for salvation is of the Lord, and only those of faith will inherit eternal life, and once more be planted in the land of promise only in the age to come it will be on the new earth.

Even though Christ is the basis of human salvation--not ethnicity, that does not mean God does not utilize ethnicity in His plan. After all, He created a diversity of ethnicities for a reason!

Paul takes pains to show that ethnicity does not automatically qualify for Salvation. But he does *not* take pains to show that ethnicity is not part of God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

On the contrary, the promises *require* a diversity of ethnicities. Nationalities and ethnicities are, you've been shown, a critically important part of the promises God made to Abraham--they just aren't the basis of Salvation. Christ is.

Saving "all Israel" has nothing to do with turning national Israel into a metaphorical "nation" so that only Christians are saved. Rather, in my view, "all Israel will be saved" has to do with the political salvation of a whole nation so that many Jews will be saved, along with many Gentiles. My view--you're welcome to your own.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not only "National Salvation" for Israel But Your Going To Add "Political Salvation" Toooooo!

Real Big Smiles!

Your "smiles" are phony. I'm serious. Political Salvation of Israel refers, in my meaning, to the deliverance of national Israel from her enemies. There is nothing unbiblical about this.

You may ask what the connection is between Israel's political salvation and Christian salvation? That's a legitimate question, but you're too silly to have an honest conversation with.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You mean "Your" understanding that's wrong!

Roman's 9:6-8 clearly identifies "Two" Israel's, one of the flesh "Ethnic Jews" and one of the promised seed "The Church" both Jew and Gentile

Your claims are from a poster in denial of the very deity of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, nobody would expect otherwise!

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

You don't engage in serious conversations. The deity of Christ is not an essential part of this thread--you just bring it up to be contentious, showing that you don't really wish to have an honest conversation.

You're reading your theology of "two Israel's" back into the 3 chapters of Romans to achieve a result you want. Cady is basing Paul's 3 chapters on the explicit question Paul is raising--what about God's promise of Israel's existence if Israel seems to be falling away?

 

[Truth7t7]

Your "smiles" are phony. I'm serious. Political Salvation of Israel refers, in my meaning, to the deliverance of national Israel from her enemies. There is nothing unbiblical about this.

You may ask what the connection is between Israel's political salvation and Christian salvation? That's a legitimate question, but you're too silly to have an honest conversation with.

There is no political or national salvation for Israel, you live inside a Zionist bubble full of dreams and fairy tales, a fact

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is no political or national salvation for Israel, you live inside a Zionist bubble full of dreams and fairy tales, a fact

The reality is, you spend your time giving cheap quips to keep your contentious spirit alive. The question is: when will you apply your reasonably good brain to attack subjects in a good spirit?

 

[rwb]

Even though Christ is the basis of human salvation--not ethnicity, that does not mean God does not utilize ethnicity in His plan. After all, He created a diversity of ethnicities for a reason!

Paul takes pains to show that ethnicity does not automatically qualify for Salvation. But he does *not* take pains to show that ethnicity is not part of God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

On the contrary, the promises *require* a diversity of ethnicities. Nationalities and ethnicities are, you've been shown, a critically important part of the promises God made to Abraham--they just aren't the basis of Salvation. Christ is.

Saving "all Israel" has nothing to do with turning national Israel into a metaphorical "nation" so that only Christians are saved. Rather, in my view, "all Israel will be saved" has to do with the political salvation of a whole nation so that many Jews will be saved, along with many Gentiles. My view--you're welcome to your own.

It only appears ethnicity is of importance, because only one nation was chosen from which the promised Messiah came. Though Christ was born a Jew through Israel, long before He came God's Covenant was made with a Gentile named Abraham. Eternal life was never going to be according to ethnicity but was always according to grace through faith. That's why God preached the Gospel to Abraham, and upon hearing the Gospel according to grace, Abraham believed God and was found to be faithful.

Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Genesis 18:18 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

 

[Truth7t7]

The reality is, you spend your time giving cheap quips to keep your contentious spirit alive. The question is: when will you apply your reasonably good brain to attack subjects in a good spirit?

Your false teachings are silenced, I'm glad to see your happy with the exposure

There is no Political or National salvation for Israel, Nothing but dreams and fairy tales found no place in scripture

 

[Randy Kluth]

It only appears ethnicity is of importance, because only one nation was chosen from which the promised Messiah came. Though Christ was born a Jew through Israel, long before He came God's Covenant was made with a Gentile named Abraham. Eternal life was never going to be according to ethnicity but was always according to grace through faith. That's why God preached the Gospel to Abraham, and upon hearing the Gospel according to grace, Abraham believed God and was found to be faithful.

Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Genesis 18:18 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Absolutely, Paul taught against bigotry by proclaiming that Christ is the basis of salvatioin for the whole world, regardless of nationality or ethnicity. He died for the whole world, and not just for Israel!

Again, this does not mean nationality and ethnicity does not figure into God's promises and plans! To say that salvation operates for everybody, without discrimination, is not the same thing as saying God may only save the Greeks, and possibly leave out the rest of the nations and peoples!

On the contrary, God specifically requires that salvation take place in *every* nation and people! Do you see the difference? In one case, God promises that every nation and ethnicity will be touched by Salvation. This is a *necessary* national and ethnic requirement, that every nationality and ethnicity be touched with salvation!

But saying that the salvation of every nation and people is based exclusively on Christ alone is another matter entirely. It does not allow God to reach only one nation, since He Himself has promised salvation to *all* of them!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your false teachings are silenced, I'm glad to see your happy with the exposure

There is no Political or National salvation for Israel, Nothing but dreams and fairy tales found no place in scripture

Get back to me when you get serious. Otherwise, nobody will take you seriously. And I think that if you have an honest position, you deserve to be heard--just not the silliness.

What I mean is, you go on every day with one person stating a position, and you replying saying, "Is isn't so," usually with some silly insult attached. You aren't even taking the time to explain why you have a different position, and thus show respect for others.

So you're just trolling, brother. Apply your brain--I do think you're smart enough to engage in real discussions. If you wish to correct people, you'll only accomplish that by serving others by trying to show them where they're mistaken.

 

[rwb]

Absolutely, Paul taught against bigotry by proclaiming that Christ is the basis of salvatioin for the whole world, regardless of nationality or ethnicity. He died for the whole world, and not just for Israel!

Again, this does not mean nationality and ethnicity does not figure into God's promises and plans! To say that salvation operates for everybody, without discrimination, is not the same thing as saying God may only save the Greeks, and possibly leave out the rest of the nations and peoples!

On the contrary, God specifically requires that salvation take place in *every* nation and people! Do you see the difference? In one case, God promises that every nation and ethnicity will be touched by Salvation. This is a *necessary* national and ethnic requirement, that every nationality and ethnicity be touched with salvation!

But saying that the salvation of every nation and people is based exclusively on Christ alone is another matter entirely. It does not allow God to reach only one nation, since He Himself has promised salvation to *all* of them!

Randy, your statements are confusing, because they are conflicting. I don't find in Scripture where God ever promises to eternally save nations. According to Scripture God saves people from among the nations, and ethnicities, but has never said there will be national salvation for any nation. Even to His chosen nation, God has repeatedly said only the remnant of them would be saved.

I don't know where this doctrine you espouse of national salvation for any nation comes from, but I do know it is not found in Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

Again, this does not mean nationality and ethnicity does not figure into God's promises and plans!

Your Zionist claims are false!

Romans 2:11KJV
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[WPM]

Your explication of the text is missing an answer to the implied objection raised in Romans chapter 9. Let me repeat my answer to rwb here.

In Romans 9:6, Paul implies that a Jewish unbeliever, living in Rome, might raise an objection to the gospel. It might go something like this, "Paul, your gospel can't be true because it leads to the logical conclusion that God's word to Israel has failed." Paul begins his answer in 9:6, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed."

What I am asking is this. What specific promise does Paul have in view?

What promise does the average Jew claim, that the Gospel of Christ seems to reject or at least, clarify?

In my opinion, Paul spends three entire chapters of Romans answering that question. Our understanding of the objection implied in 9:6 will inform our understanding of those three chapters.

If we have time, we might go to the Old Testament and find the specific passage that Paul has in mind?

This is as clear as mud. Instead of forcing your bias opinions into Romans 9:6, and expecting us to align with them, quote the question in the text. You foist something upon the text that is not being said or implied, to support your theology. I do not see your reasoning in (or implied in) the inspired text, and that is all that matters. Where is the question?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I've already answered this in my reply #738 to Randy. Paul clears up the misunderstanding of who belongs to Israel that shall be saved. The ethnic nation of Israel saw themselves exclusively as those ordained by God for eternal life. Paul takes great pains to prove why ethnicity is not a cause for celebration, for salvation is of the Lord, and only those of faith will inherit eternal life, and once more be planted in the land of promise only in the age to come it will be on the new earth.

You still haven't answered the question.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But what does vs 6 tell you?

Romans 9:6 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Why would Paul say native born Israelite is not of Israel?

We don't know how to interpret the answer until we know the question.

 

[Truth7t7]

We don't know how to interpret the answer until we know the question.

Your living in denial, you have been answered several times

Stand up and make a statement, not everybody is up to 3rd grade guessing games, be a man!

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is as clear as mud. Instead of forcing your bias opinions into Romans 9:6, and expecting us to align with them, quote the question in the text. You foist something upon the text that is not being said or implied, to support your theology. I do not see your reasoning in (or implied in) the inspired text, and that is all that matters. Where is the question?

What did I force? I'm asking a simple question. Paul says "It isn't as if God's word has failed." What specific promise does Paul have in mind? Unless and until you can answer that, then you can't understand anything else about what he meant to say.

 

[rwb]

You still haven't answered the question.

We don't know how to interpret the answer until we know the question.

Well then, I guess it appears that this mysterious question you and Randy find but cannot be found by others reading here cannot be answered.

 

[rwb]

What did I force? I'm asking a simple question. Paul says "It isn't as if God's word has failed." What specific promise does Paul have in mind? Unless and until you can answer that, then you can't understand anything else about what he meant to say.

You've been repeatedly given the answer to your question, but you refuse to accept the answer given. Let me remind you the question comes from you, not from Paul. Paul never questioned the FACT that salvation was ever for any specific ethnicity or nations.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your living in denial, you have been answered several times

Stand up and make a statement, not everybody is up to 3rd grade guessing games, be a man!

Do you care to offer your answer to my question? Or are you comfortable in that chair and you don't want to get up? I understand if you don't.