Another Premillennial absurdity

[Truth7t7]

Your explication of the text is missing an answer to the implied objection raised in Romans chapter 9. Let me repeat my answer to rwb here.

In Romans 9:6, Paul implies that a Jewish unbeliever, living in Rome, might raise an objection to the gospel. It might go something like this, "Paul, your gospel can't be true because it leads to the logical conclusion that God's word to Israel has failed." Paul begins his answer in 9:6, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed."

What I am asking is this. What specific promise does Paul have in view?

What promise does the average Jew claim, that the Gospel of Christ seems to reject or at least, clarify?

In my opinion, Paul spends three entire chapters of Romans answering that question. Our understanding of the objection implied in 9:6 will inform our understanding of those three chapters.

If we have time, we might go to the Old Testament and find the specific passage that Paul has in mind?

Let me repeat my response to your false claims

You mean "Your" understanding that's wrong!

Roman's 9:6-8 clearly identifies "Two" Israel's, one of the flesh "Ethnic Jews" and one of the promised seed "The Church" both Jew and Gentile

Your claims are from a poster in denial of the very deity of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, nobody would expect otherwise!

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Truth7t7]

Suppose a man is walking down the street and he notices a woman wearing a watch. He asks the woman, "what time is it?" She says, "it's about 3:30."

Suppose a person that claims to be a saved Spirit filled Christian walking down the street, and this self proclaimed Christian denies that Jesus Christ is "God Almighty" manifest in the flesh as scripture teaches below?

What Time Is It?

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[CadyandZoe]

The veil is being removed. This is the biggest load of humanistic nonsense that I've ever read on this forum. It is absolute ridiculous. But, i am not surprised considering your strong denunciation of the deity of Christ. Not surprisingly, the only support you have is from Randy K.

A man was looking at a painting in an art gallery. As a woman approached, he remarks to her "nothing in the painting makes any sense." She tells him, "I have been telling these people that the painting is upside down for years."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Roman's 9:6-8 clearly identifies "Two" Israel's, one of the flesh "Ethnic Jews" and one of the promised seed "The Church" both Jew and Gentile

Really? Okay, how does this answer the objection concerning the specific promise Paul has in view? Hint: he tells you about the promise in the first 5 verses of Romans 9.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Suppose a person that claims to be a saved Spirit filled Christian walking down the street, and this self proclaimed Christian denies that Jesus Christ is "God Almighty" manifest in the flesh as scripture teaches below?

What Time Is It?

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I promised not to derail the thread.

 

[Truth7t7]

A man was looking at a painting in an art gallery. As a woman approached, he remarks to her "nothing in the painting makes any sense." She tells him, "I have been telling these people that the painting is upside down for years."

Suppose a person that claims to be a saved Spirit filled Christian walking down the street, and this self proclaimed Christian denies that Jesus Christ is "God Almighty" manifest in the flesh as scripture teaches below?

Upside down is your worldly interpretation of scripture!

What Time Is It?

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Truth7t7]

Really? Okay, how does this answer the objection concerning the specific promise Paul has in view? Hint: he tells you about the promise in the first 5 verses of Romans 9.

There is no promise in view as you suggest, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is no promise in view as you suggest

Usually we refer to the Bible as "the word of God", but when the Bible itself talks about the "word of God" it refers to a promise of God. And the question is, does God keep his word or not?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Suppose a person that claims to be a saved Spirit filled Christian walking down the street, and this self proclaimed Christian denies that Jesus Christ is "God Almighty" manifest in the flesh as scripture teaches below?

Upside down is your worldly interpretation of scripture!

What Time Is It?

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Let's be respectful to the original poster. If you would like to start another thread, I would be happy to answer all of your questions there.

 

[Truth7t7]

Usually we refer to the Bible as "the word of God", but when the Bible itself talks about the "word of God" it refers to a promise of God. And the question is, does God keep his word or not?

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's be respectful to the original poster. If you would like to start another thread, I would be happy to answer all of your questions there.

You need to show respect to the words of God!

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[CadyandZoe]

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

As I say, I am willing to discuss Colossians 2:9 with you in another thread.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You need to show respect to the words of God!

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Okay, I have asked you several times to take this to another forum. If you insist on raising the issue of the Deity of Christ here, you should ask WPM for permission to derail his thread.
Until then, let's table that discussion. Okay?

 

[Truth7t7]

As I say, I am willing to discuss Colossians 2:9 with you in another thread.

No need for another discussion, many would claim your views as "Heretical" and I wouldn't disagree

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay, I have asked you several times to take this to another forum. If you insist on raising the issue of the Deity of Christ here, you should ask WPM for permission to derail his thread.
Until then, let's table that discussion. Okay?

No permission is needed, your claims are considered "Heretical"!

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[CadyandZoe]

No permission is needed, your claims are considered "Heretical"!

As witnessed before the forum, you can't see nor understand the word of God, you can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, let alone interpreting lesser scripture in Roman's 9:6-8

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

hmm, lesser scripture?

 

[Truth7t7]

hmm, lesser scripture?

Hmm, you deny Jesus Chirst Is "God" you have no voice!


You can't see Jesus Christ as being God manifest in the flesh as seen below, "silence"!

Jesus Is The Lord

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[rwb]

Yes, it's your failure over and over again to asnwer a simple question, and then follow-up by complaining about the process and who's asking?? ;)

Seriously, I just wanted you to answer the question too. What harm is there in that?

Yea, I don't really expect many to hear me out--at least you're doing that. I appreciate it very much. The question you were asked by Cady is, What was the promise that God wasn't failing?

So the question Cady was asking you was this: what was the "word of God" that Paul said had been effective? This was Cady's question--not Paul's question. And I was hoping you understood that the "word of God" here is representative of a promise God made to Abraham, to establish a nation in his name, of his posterity?

Paul said, "It is not as though God’s word had failed."

While it's true that the Law made Israel's inheritance dependent on their obedience, it is said that God had made these promises *eternal* nonetheless.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

So if God's promise to Abraham concerning the existence of Israel and their inheritance of Canaan was an *eternal promise,* then all the failure they committed under the Law, including failing the entire covenant of Law, could be forgiven, and they would still eventually come to inherit all that was promised to them.

Paul clearly said that this promise was not without effect, meaning that it was still in play. Even though Israel had failed under the Law, and they would be reduced severely as a nationality and as an ethnicity, God still promised that they would be regathered, just as they had been regathered nationally and ethnically after the Babylonian Captivity.

Even more so, they would be restored as a whole nation, better than when the ancient Persians supervised their restoration. And furthermore, they would ultimately be restored, never to be destroyed again. This is the "Jewish Hope," the Messianic Hope.

Being that it concerns a nation and an ethnicity does not mean God is prejudiced towards a particular nationality and ethnicity. Rather, it means he is concerned about the descendants of men like Abraham, who served Him. If you serve God faithfully, He will bless your children, along with you. This is not playing favorites, choosing you and discarding others. No, this is using you to set an example as to what standards requires of men and of their families in order to be blessed by Him.

God promised not just to save Israel, but He also promised Abraham He would do the same for many nations, which I believe are the Christian nations of the world. Like Israel, however, they are failing and will need the promise of grace and national restoration.

Political Salvation is evident as far back as Abraham, when he rescued Lot and his acquaintances from the kings who captured them. It took place under the Covenant of Law, which stipulated curses and blessings, based on disobedience or obedience. When Israel returned to obedience under the Law the nation was saved *politically* from their enemies. There is absolutely nothing new about this.

There is often confusion because Christians know that evangelical salvation is more important than political salvation. Individuals can be saved even in pagan nations.

But God showed His preference for Christian nations by setting forth Israel as an example of a proper theocracy that could be blessed. God wanted not just to bless nations, but He also knew that an ethical, spiritually-founded nation will produce a lot more evangelically-saved Christians than pagan nations, who persecute or abuse the righteous.

Thanks for listening....

Randy, the Word of God is not without effect. By the Covenant promise made through the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all Israel shall be saved. But salvation of all Israel will not be of an ethnic people because the ethnic people, the nation of Israel turned away from God, breaking the Covenant they swore to uphold when they inherited the land of promise. According to faith God has extended His Covenant promise to people from all the nations of the world for the sake of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The love God set upon them is eternal and the promises He made through them are forever.

This was the plan of God from the beginning. It was always God's plan to send His Son, who would come through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Belonging to Israel, a Jew by birth, Christ was sent to do that which the ethnic people of Israel could never do. Christ would love the Father and perfectly obey all the Father gave of Him to do. All who are of the same faith of Father Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile come into the same good olive tree of faith. The olive tree representing the faithful remnant from among the ethnic people. These Jews of faith partake of the Root (Christ) and fatness of the olive tree, while the rest, remaining in unbelief were cut off. Now the wild olive tree (Gentiles) that before did not have the Root (Christ) can be grafted in with those of the good olive tree if they hear the Gospel of Christ and believe. This does not mean those cut off cannot be grafted into Christ, they too can be saved, not according to ethnicity but by faith.

According to Paul the way all Israel shall be saved is when the last Gentile from all the nations of the world, destined to be saved hears the Gospel and by grace through faith believes Christ, thereby belonging to the good olive tree eternally held up by the Root (Christ). Not an ethnic Israel, but "Israel of God." It is for them the Covenant promise made through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of Christ, the true Israel of faith.

Hosea 11:1 (KJV) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[rwb]

Sorry, somehow my words were misconstrued. In Romans 9:6, Paul implies that a Jewish unbeliever, living in Rome, might raise an objection to the gospel. It might go something like this, "Paul, your gospel can't be true because it leads to the logical conclusion that God's word to Israel has failed." Paul begins his answer in 9:6, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed."

What I am asking is this. What specific promise does Paul have in view?

What promise does the average Jew claim, that the Gospel of Christ seems to reject or at least, clarify?

In my opinion, Paul spends three entire chapters of Romans answering that question. Our understanding of the objection implied in 9:6 will inform our understanding of those three chapters.

I've already answered this in my reply #738 to Randy. Paul clears up the misunderstanding of who belongs to Israel that shall be saved. The ethnic nation of Israel saw themselves exclusively as those ordained by God for eternal life. Paul takes great pains to prove why ethnicity is not a cause for celebration, for salvation is of the Lord, and only those of faith will inherit eternal life, and once more be planted in the land of promise only in the age to come it will be on the new earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, the Word of God is not without effect. By the Covenant promise made through the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all Israel shall be saved. But salvation of all Israel will not be of an ethnic people because the ethnic people, the nation of Israel turned away from God, breaking the Covenant they swore to uphold when they inherited the land of promise. According to faith God has extended His Covenant promise to people from all the nations of the world for the sake of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The love God set upon them is eternal and the promises He made through them are forever.

This was the plan of God from the beginning. It was always God's plan to send His Son, who would come through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Belonging to Israel, a Jew by birth, Christ was sent to do that which the ethnic people of Israel could never do. Christ would love the Father and perfectly obey all the Father gave of Him to do. All who are of the same faith of Father Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile come into the same good olive tree of faith. The olive tree representing the faithful remnant from among the ethnic people. These Jews of faith partake of the Root (Christ) and fatness of the olive tree, while the rest, remaining in unbelief were cut off. Now the wild olive tree (Gentiles) that before did not have the Root (Christ) can be grafted in with those of the good olive tree if they hear the Gospel of Christ and believe. This does not mean those cut off cannot be grafted into Christ, they too can be saved, not according to ethnicity but by faith.
According to Paul the way all Israel shall be saved is when the last Gentile from all the nations of the world, destined to be saved hears the Gospel and by grace through faith believes Christ, thereby belonging to the good olive tree eternally held up by the Root (Christ). Not an ethnic Israel, but "Israel of God." It is for them the Covenant promise made through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of Christ, the true Israel of faith.

Hosea 11:1 (KJV) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Well, I guess we've both said our bit? Thanks.