Another Premillennial absurdity

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is what I told WPM before--I'll let *God judge* motives.

It does not seem like you are doing that. You judge people here constantly. You seem to understand that's not your place, but you do it, anyway.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not interested in the hostility. When I quoted Irenaeus properly, WPM failed to deliver. Irenaeus rendered the "binding of Satan" at the 2nd Coming, when Antichrist is defeated. You can call things your way, and I'll call them mine. Let others decide.

If you're not interested in the hostility, then why have you been so hostile on several occasions? You need to stop being a hypocrite. Work on yourself for awhile and then maybe you can get to a point where you can correct others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you can't and should not separate your love for one another from your debates. I enjoy debates, and have endured the worst insults, including the endless attacks from your Amill group. It's discouraging, but has it phased me otherwise? No.

You seem to think that any disagreement is an attack. I think you might be too thin skinned for this, Randy.

But our calling is to proclaim the word of God. And just as important as making points to defend the word of God is that we ensure the spirit of our conversations remain aligned with the Holy Spirit Himself.

I agree, but are you doing that? Read post #371 before you answer.

We don't cut Him off in the midst of debate! And it is my job to remind ourselves of that.

Ourselves? No, you are just trying to remind us Amils of that while acting holier than thou.

Otherwise, we will soon walk away and immerse ourselves in carnality, hostility, and party spirit.

I don't want to do that. But, once again, you need to work on yourself in these areas. It's not your job to judge the rest of us.

I think you're just arguing to "take sides." You don't even seem to understand the argument I was making!

Nonsense! I completely understand the point you're making and I disagree with it. But, are you seeing mine? Do you think someone is saved even before they become saved? Do you think someone can be with Jesus rather than against Him even before they become saved? If so, where is that taught in scripture and how does that line up with Jesus saying those who are not with Him are against Him?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to think that any disagreement is an attack. I think you might be too thin skinned for this, Randy.

I've been doing this for 20 years, brother! ;) I spent the 1st 10 years on an unmoderated debate forum, on Usenet. It is my intention to bring *living our Christianity* into every discussion, whether you think that is "thin-skinned" or not. It is part of what I conceive to be my ministry of God's word. God requires that we not only teach the word, but also live it. What good is it to have all the knowledge in the world if we lack love? (see Paul)

I do not see your argument about there being only 2 classes of people. Today in the world there are the Saved and the Unsaved, yes. Nobody is arguing that. But in another sense there is this 3rd group, who may also be classified among the "Unsaved." They are those who have not yet heard the Gospel properly, and therefore have not been able to make a completely informed decision.

There are also those "Unsaved" in the world who have received that testimony, and are therefore "Lost to Damnation." They have rejected a clear testimony to the Gospel, and have not only rejected the message, but have rejected God Himself in the sense of His being Lord over their lives.

So you have failed to understand the distinction I'm making here between two kinds of "Unsaved" people--those who have received a proper testimony to the Gospel, and those who have not yet received that testimony.

I believe this condition exists up until the 2nd Coming, because not every single person on earth will be reached properly with the Gospel when Jesus returns. And certainly, many of those who have heard the Gospel have not heard it properly, whether is it a corrupted message or because the people who administer it are not living proper Christianity as a model.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've been doing this for 20 years, brother! ;)

So?

I spent the 1st 10 years on an unmoderated debate forum, on Usenet. It is my intention to bring *living our Christianity* into every discussion, whether you think that is "thin-skinned" or not

You're not going to be very productive in that goal when you say the nasty things you've said on this forum. For example, calling Amils "a gang of thugs". Wow. I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you after that one.

. It is part of what I conceive to be my ministry of God's word. God requires that we not only teach the word, but also live it.

You're failing in that regard on this forum, just so you know.

What good is it to have all the knowledge in the world if we lack love? (see Paul)

So, why are you often lacking in love on here? Maybe you should step back and work on that part of yourself for awhile and then come back here.

I do not see your argument about there being only 2 classes of people.

You don't see it or you don't agree with it? Surely, you must at least see the point of the argument. Once again, Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me". He is the one who indicated that there are two classes of people, Randy. Where did He ever talk about anyone who was neither with Him nor against Him?

Today in the world there are the Saved and the Unsaved, yes. Nobody is arguing that. But in another sense there is this 3rd group, who may also be classified among the "Unsaved."

That is your invention. Where is this taught in scripture? This is why you are so frustrating to deal with. You get ideas in your own imagination and then you act like they are biblical. No. Show it from scripture if you want to be taken seriously.

They are those who have not yet heard the Gospel properly, and therefore have not been able to make a completely informed decision.

Where does scripture describe this group? I believe that those who have not heard the gospel properly, if at all, will be judged by the criteria Paul wrote about in Romans 1 and 2. But, at any given moment in time all people are either saved or unsaved. There's no in between.

There are also those "Unsaved" in the world who have received that testimony, and are therefore "Lost to Damnation." They have rejected a clear testimony to the Gospel, and have not only rejected the message, but have rejected God Himself in the sense of His being Lord over their lives.

So you have failed to understand the distinction I'm making here between two kinds of "Unsaved" people--those who have received a proper testimony to the Gospel, and those who have not yet received that testimony.

Where does Jesus make this distinction? Where can I find this distinction described in scripture? Give me scripture, man! Getting you to back up your beliefs with scripture is like pulling teeth.

I believe this condition exists up until the 2nd Coming, because not every single person on earth will be reached properly with the Gospel when Jesus returns. And certainly, many of those who have heard the Gospel have not heard it properly, whether is it a corrupted message or because the people who administer it are not living proper Christianity as a model.

You don't seem to understand that those people will be judged by the criteria described in Romans 1 and 2. They will be judged by what they do know.

It's clear to me now that your belief that people will get a chance to repent and put their faith in Christ even after He comes is based on your belief that everyone must properly hear the gospel first. Guess what? Not everyone has properly heard the gospel for the past almost 2,000 years! Do you think that those who died without properly hearing it will be resurrected to get a chance to repent and put their faith in Christ? Scripture does not teach that. Jesus certainly did not (see John 5:28-29).

Those people will be judged based on what they did know. Based on what Paul described in Romans 1 and 2. Did they believe in God and were they thankful to Him and glorify Him as God or not? That will be the basis of their judgment. Paul indicated that no one has any excuse for not believing in God, being thankful to Him and glorifying Him as God (Romans 1:18-21). He didn't say that no one had an excuse for not believing in Jesus. Obviously, if someone has never even heard of Him then they have an excuse for not believing in Him. But, they will be judged according to what they did know. And, again, according to Paul in Romans 1:18-21, everyone is expected to know God because of what He has made and to be thankful to Him and glorify Him as God.

 

[WPM]

Those to whom Jesus sent his Apostles were not yet saved. They were somewhere between the lost Wicked and the saved Christians. They had yet to receive the testimony of the Gospel. This condition, I aver, will continue to exist until the end of the age. The fact that in the end there will only be the Saved and the Unsaved does not address this.

Again, you are inventing a condition that is additional to the overall biblical narrative in order to support your questionable theological views. This fictional 3rd group that you have mistakenly deemed as: those who are "somewhere between the lost Wicked and the saved Christians" or “those who have not yet made up their minds will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom” are a figment of your imagination. This is extra-biblical nonsense. Not surprisingly, you have no Scripture to support this rhetoric. These people have a name in Scripture - they are called unsaved, ungodly or wicked in Scripture. They are of their father the devil. Simple.

Stop adding on to Scriptures.

 

[WPM]

So?


You're not going to be very productive in that goal when you say the nasty things you've said on this forum. For example, calling Amils "a gang of thugs". Wow. I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you after that one.


You're failing in that regard on this forum, just so you know.


So, why are you often lacking in love on here? Maybe you should step back and work on that part of yourself for awhile and then come back here.

Is it not ironic that the one who is most guilty of this is the one trying to lecture the rest of us?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, you are inventing a condition that is additional to the overall biblical narrative in order to support your questionable theological views. This fictional 3rd group that you have mistakenly deemed as: those who are "somewhere between the lost Wicked and the saved Christians" or “those who have not yet made up their minds will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom” are a figment of your imagination. This is extra-biblical nonsense. Not surprisingly, you have no Scripture to support this rhetoric. These people have a name in Scripture - they are called unsaved, ungodly or wicked in Scripture. They are of their father the devil. Simple.

Stop adding on to Scriptures.

Right. There is absolutely zero scripture which teaches anything about this third group that he believes in. He continually thinks that the things he comes up with in his imagination are equal to scripture. He seemingly could not care less if he can support his views with scripture or not. I don't get it.

 

[WPM]

Right. There is absolutely zero scripture which teaches anything about this third group that he believes in. He continually thinks that the things he comes up with in his imagination are equal to scripture. He seemingly could not care less if he can support his views with scripture or not. I don't get it.

Bro, that applies to every biblical subject we discuss. Notwithstanding, he does the same with the ECFs. He feels if he says it then it is a fact, regardless of the facts many of his claims are bereft of biblical support. This is just another glaring example.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So?


You're not going to be very productive in that goal when you say the nasty things you've said on this forum. For example, calling Amils "a gang of thugs". Wow. I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you after that one.

It is not a privilege to talk with you. By all means, go away. I don't think you or any among you Amills (except Marty) have said one complimentary thing to me, nor agreed on anything. WPM suggests I'm following the Devil. The question is, Why am I talking to you?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, you are inventing a condition that is additional to the overall biblical narrative in order to support your questionable theological views. This fictional 3rd group that you have mistakenly deemed as: those who are "somewhere between the lost Wicked and the saved Christians" or “those who have not yet made up their minds will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom” are a figment of your imagination. This is extra-biblical nonsense. Not surprisingly, you have no Scripture to support this rhetoric. These people have a name in Scripture - they are called unsaved, ungodly or wicked in Scripture. They are of their father the devil. Simple.

Stop adding on to Scriptures.

Not interested.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I know what forum you're talking about and it looks like that forum is still there. I know they made changes to the site just like they did here, so that's probably all it was.

From Christian Forums:
"The Formal Debate forum has been closed and made read only forum. There was a consistent problem of off topic threads and not following the protocol as stated in the Statement of Purpose for that forum. In addition, there was a lack of activity for which the forum was designed...."

They have asked the "goading" to stop.

"Goading & Flaming Rule Update Notice
The NO Goading wording includes post ratings which are clearly meant to goad. Staff actions will be issued to those using post ratings for the purpose of goading."

I didn't say the website closed down--just the Formal Debate forum. This happened right after WPM had been goading me with his regular insults, and I unfortunately started giving him back his own medicine--not normally my way.

I was 1st cut off from that thread, and after WPM (he has another name there) posted a final response, claiming I had nothing (when I was banned and could no longer respond), they apparently cut down the whole thread. I still don't know who requested the mods cut me off? WPM? I don't know, but it was obviously Amills.

Don't blame me if I don't respond to many of your posts. I'm not doing it for you regardless--I'm doing it for those who deserve a proper answer.

 

[Angel Faith]

One of the main problems Premillennialism has is that it has a glorified Jesus bringing back all the redeemed of all the ages that have enjoyed perfect communion with Christ in His majestic heavenly presence since the time He defeated sin and death 2000 years ago, giving them new eternal incorruptible bodies at His second coming, along with the living in Christ, rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back to a corruptible millennial earth filled with degenerates, death, decay and depravity, just like our present day. It is just another re-run of our current evil age.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog. They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem. This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.

This whole portrayal is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will never happen.

Like Hell, I thought Revelation told us no one is there nor yet in Heaven until the judgement. Which has yet to occur.

 

[covenantee]

No, actually you have been goading "Randy," and that appears to be your chosen manner. And the evidence of Israel's future "National Salvation" is everywhere, from the Abrahamic Promises, to the OT Prophets--I've quoted some of them, to Jesus' Olivet Discourse, to Acts 1 and Rev 1.

You're terribly misguided if you think people just made this up. The Jews held to the "Jewish Hope," or the "Hope of Israel," for many years before Christianity came into existence, and have continued to believe it throughout the NT age, saying "next year in Jerusalem." But I really don't expect you to acknowledge any of this, since it has not been your manner to do so.

Every person on the planet possesses some quantity of Jewish DNA.

Will 8 billion souls experience national salvation?

Awaiting your response.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Like Hell, I thought Revelation told us no one is there nor yet in Heaven until the judgement. Which has yet to occur.

He's been told numerous times that Premills do *not* see the Millennial earth as "just like earth today." The Devil is bound, and the glorified Church, along with Christ, rule God's Kingdom on earth. That is a very different earth!

 

[Angel Faith]

He's been told numerous times that Premills do *not* see the Millennial earth as "just like earth today." The Devil is bound, and the glorified Church, along with Christ, rule God's Kingdom on earth. That is a very different earth!

Thank you for letting me know that. And I agree.

Why then does he persist do you think? Could we be wrong?

 

[WPM]

Not interested.

Exactly! This battle has been long-won. You have nothing. You are "not interested" in supporting your beliefs because it is not in the Bible. This is a reason why the reader should embrace Amil. You cannot find what you have been taught in the Book.

 

[WPM]

He's been told numerous times that Premills do *not* see the Millennial earth as "just like earth today." The Devil is bound, and the glorified Church, along with Christ, rule God's Kingdom on earth. That is a very different earth!

What has this to do with what he just said? Nothing! So where are the dead wicked today? Where are the dead redeemed today?

 

[WPM]

Like Hell, I thought Revelation told us no one is there nor yet in Heaven until the judgement. Which has yet to occur.

Oh, so where are the dead wicked today? Where are the dead redeemed today?

 

[Angel Faith]

Oh, so where are the dead wicked today? Where are the dead redeemed today?

What I've read says they're either asleep, as Lazarus was, or they're in Paradise, as Jesus promised the believing repentant thief beside him during their crucifixion, or the souls of either one, dead wicked or redeemed, have returned to God. The Old Testament doesn't differentiate in Ecclesiastes 12.

That's what I've read at least.