Another Premillennial absurdity
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Nowhere does Peter teach that the day of the Lord equals a literal period of one thousand years+ and an unknown period of time after that for Satan’s little season. Premillennialists force that upon 2 Peter 3. That chapter powerfully shows the wholesale climactic destruction of the universe (including the solar system) that arrives unexpectedly when the day of the Lord arrives. The onset of this day catches the mockers and scoffers in the narrative sneeringly rejecting the promise of His coming in the blazing conflagration.
Not only does the day of the Lord arrive suddenly, but the devastation accompanying it does also. In fact, the actual day in view is marked by wholesale fiery destruction. Individual days in Scripture are normally presented in such a clear and obvious detail, to show us what marks its continuation.
The meaning and actual length of the day mentioned here (however long it is), must relate to a specific time-period in which the detail described in the narrative continues throughout its duration. To argue otherwise is to totally deny the meaning of the passage. Moreover, whatever is portrayed within the aforementioned day is introduced suddenly to this kosmos – “like a thief in the night.” David Brown, in his classic book ‘Christ’s Second coming: Will it be Premillennial?’ rightly explains, “terms and phrases, expressive of perpetuity, are to be stretched no further than the known duration of the thing spoken.”
Our Premillennialist brethren make much of the linkage between Revelation 20 and 2 Peter 3; however, it is this very connection that highlights the inconsistency of their position. A close analysis of both passages illustrates the error of this comparison and underlines the many glaring contradictions in their school of thought. In fact, the core of the Premillennial confusion is seen in their correlation of the “thousand years” mentioned in Revelation 20 with the arrival and duration of “the day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3). Premils build their corroboration of Revelation 20 on a mistaken interpretation of 2 Peter 3:5-9, which says, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” From this, Premils insist on the idea that the day of the Lord is to last a literal 1,000 years – terminating with the fiery destruction.
Can you tell me who the supposed sheep nations are? I've never heard of them before.
Last edited:
Yes! He is coming to resurrect man, judge man, exercise perfect judgment, reward every man according to his works, glorify the redeemed and glorify all creation. He is introducing perfection forever.
With respect to Dr D. Jeremiah, I have been taught also by very good teachers.
Dr. Jeremiah has misunderstood the role of the kinsman-redeemer. The book of Ruth gives the illustration. Now the Lord is the kinsman-redeemer for 3 groups - Israel, the nations & the Body of Christ. Here is for Israel.
Christ as the Kinsman-Redeemer for Israel.
In relation to the Lord being the kinsman-redeemer for Israel and the world, He needed to fulfill each requirement. The four gospels represent Christ fulfilling these great functions in regards to Israel and the four visions in Revelation reveal Him fulfilling them for humanity.
1. Proof of Relationship.
God`s Law required that the person desiring to be kinsman-redeemer, must first prove His right on the ground of relationship with Israel, for no stranger was permitted to act.
`In all the land of your possession you shall grant redemption of the land. If one of your brethren becomes poor, and has sold some of his possessions, and if his kinsman-redeemer comes to redeem it, then he may redeem what his brother has sold.` (Lev. 25: 24 & 25)
Christ`s genealogy is therefore recorded - as son of Abraham and son of David. (The two great covenants - promise and kingship). (Matt. 1 - 17)
2. Uphold God`s Law.
Next the Lord had to vindicate the law. This He did by fulfilling all legal demands. In Mark we see that Christ maintained the rights of God`s law. In doing so He came up against the usurper who dominated the heritage. Christ took authority over demonic possession, sickness, social inequality, and false teachings. (Mark 3: 1 - 5)
3. Clear the Debt.
To clear the debt in order to redeem Israel and ransom the estate, Christ did fully and finally by being the Lamb of God. Zacharias prophesied of this -
`And you child, (John), will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, to give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins.` (Luke 1: 76 & 77)
4. To Consummate the Marriage Union.
The last transaction awaits achievement. Christ must come and take His bride, consummating an eternal union. This means that Christ needs to connect again with Israel and for them to come under His rulership.
In John`s gospel we read, `He who has the bride is the bridegroom,` (John 3: 29). So Christ is expected to return and consummate the union.
`Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)
Marilyn.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Only takes a twinkling of an eye for the righteous to glory in their reward when the Lord comes in vengeance to eternally deal with the wicked.
God already knows those who rejected our Lords words.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
Jn 12
44 But Jesus loudly declared, “The one who believes and trusts in Me does not believe [only] in Me but [also believes] in Him who sent Me. 45 And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes and trusts in Me [as Savior—all those who anchor their hope in Me and rely on the truth of My message] will not continue to live in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
Premills reject the Lord initiates final judgement when he comes to glorify his own.
Hi WPM,
So are saying that when the Lord comes, in one day He will deliver Israel, bring vengeance upon the rebellious, judge the sheep and goats, have living water flow out to the polluted waters, have the trees grow fruit for medicine, (Ez. 47: 8 - 12, Zech. 14: 8) the nations go up to Jerusalem to worship the king at the feast of tabernacles, the lion laying down with the lamb on God`s holy mountain, and then Satan locked up and then released to come against Jerusalem (again), & on an on.....IN ONE DAY!!!!!
Hi jeff,Only takes a twinkling of an eye for the righteous to glory in their reward when the Lord comes in vengeance to eternally deal with the wicked.
God already knows those who rejected our Lords words.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
Jn 12
44 But Jesus loudly declared, “The one who believes and trusts in Me does not believe [only] in Me but [also believes] in Him who sent Me. 45 And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes and trusts in Me [as Savior—all those who anchor their hope in Me and rely on the truth of My message] will not continue to live in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
Premills reject the Lord initiates final judgement when he comes to glorify his own.
So are saying that when the Lord comes, in one day He will deliver Israel, bring vengeance upon the rebellious, judge the sheep and goats, have living water flow out to the polluted waters, have the trees grow fruit for medicine, (Ez. 47: 8 - 12, Zech. 14: 8) the nations go up to Jerusalem to worship the king at the feast of tabernacles, the lion laying down with the lamb on God`s holy mountain, and then Satan locked up and then released to come against Jerusalem (again), & on an on.....IN ONE DAY!!!!!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Actually, the fiery destruction takes place at the 2nd Coming, when Jesus Returns. It's just not apocalyptic in the sense of annihilating the planet and the universe! This is entirely unbiblical, since the Bible states in several places that the earth is forever.
So God's re-creation of the earth and heaven is really a makeover, and the destruction of the elements at the Return of Christ simply a major military judgment against the forces of Antichrist, with some added features.
Even though my view sees Jesus Christ coming back in the 1 Century, and those looking for him saw him either as or before the destruction of Jerusalem had started which I see as the Wrath of God coming down upon them.
The clause above, would seem justifiable in a way because after death, I believe everyone is going to have an experience with the Lord God Almighty, and they will see perhaps Jesus as he is, or they will fall on their face before him. In the end though, as stated about judgement, there are 2 viable options due to my view seeing the white throne judgement, and the ones who came out of hell/hades/sheol being completed. There is a judgement that will be given to us, and there are two areas of the Heavenly Realm people end up. Either those of non-faith outside the kingdom, those in faith, inside the Kingdom each given their rewards.
To note one more thing about the Kingdom is that there are 2 resurrections for one being normal, and one being out from the normal, according to Paul when he wrote about ex-anastsis which is for those who continue to run the race.
Premils wrongly apply many of these OT passages to what they been taught will happen in the future when they make no mention of a future millennium. Ez. 47: 8 - 12 and Zech. 14: 8 are long fulfilled. Premillennialists cannot seem to let go of the abolished old covenant and move in to the liberty and freedom of the new covenant arrangement. The conditional promises, to disobedient Old Testament Israel, that they failed to realize, through their rebellion, serves as a suitable shadow, type and figure of the perfect new covenant temple and the living water of the Spirit that flowed from Him. Christ is the new covenant temple. He is the final sacrifice for sin. The old covenant is abolished. It is wrong and nonsensical for Christians to promote its restoration.
In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.
This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”
Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:
The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”
Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.
When did I say that "the fiery destruction [that] takes place at the 2nd Coming, when Jesus Returns" results in "annihilating the planet"? I believe it will involve the regeneration of the current corruptible earth - removing all the result of the Fall. That is why the saints have to be glorified in order to equip them to inherit the new glorified earth.
Can you tell me who the supposed sheep nations are? I've never heard of them before.
Are you saying the second coming has occurred, the general resurrection and judgment has occurred and we are now living in the NHNE?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Good morning, Marilyn.
Are you saying you reject Jesus and Paul's clear words in Jn 12 and 2Thess 1?
I am much more comfortable and confident in my interpretation of the New. It does happen quickly, suddenly, in a twinkling of an eye.
Last edited:
Similar threads
