This Makes More Sense To Me Now

[Timtofly]

Many have not understood the timing of the seven trumpets. To understand, ask yourself of the first trumpet, "Did trees and grasses not burn from the beginning?"

Indeed, they did.

Indeed, they did not. You have the wrong creation in mind. You should get back to Genesis. There was no big bang. There was only God. No trees burned until after Adam disobeyed God.

 

[Timtofly]

There was a time when I saw multiple raptures as well, but once I learned to synchronize these rapture events as one great event, it all made sense. It is not that there are multiple raptures, but one day when Christ returns and all seven thunders happen at once.... When you realize this, there is no time for second chances as positd by the left behind movies, it then gets you to see the urgency of Prophecy to be ready.... so many have used the urgency as a warning of the rapture only followed by a second chance.... which is a strong delusion in my opinion. I Hope you understand what I am saying here... There is one day coming which we must be ready for, and it will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, and there are no second chances.
God bless

There never is a "second chance". What there is is God's grace and mercy even to the point of pulling some out of the fire. Not before the fire as Amil assume. Even after the fire, God is still pulling some out for redemption.

There is only one rapture and Second Coming. There is ascending and descending after the Second Coming.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Though this could also be understood as a reference to His church. ( We were once slaves to sin, but now called slaves to righteousness. )

I think this is the meaning.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. How could a soul eat from a literal physical tree without a body?

Did you ever have a dream that seemed real? People have experienced just about everything on earth in our dreams. It seems real. Our minds, memories construct and or God gives us images. Our spirit is real and the reality in heaven ( a different dimension) is real, and we have all our senses and then some. Can you imagine eating a fruit from a tree along a river in heaven and it being fully digested without having any waste, never having to deficate or urinate either, just completely absorbed?

Paradise was off limits to all of Adam's descendants. Even those souls in Abraham's bosom. Not until the Cross and a physical resurrection, could Adam's dead corruptible flesh enter Paradise.

The Garden of Eden is not what I am talking about. That was not heaven, that was on earth and doesn't does not exist, likely destroyed with the Flood.

Abraham's bosom was under the earth since before the Flood. Unless you think those born of Adam all went to sheol instead prior to the Flood. They certainly did not enter Paradise except Enoch

Christ's blood sacrifice was imputed to all who lived by faith - from Adam on. This is mysterious b we cause of time, which I a physical, created dimension. God and heaven exost outside of our time domain. That God sees and knows the future before it happens is part of thus reality that we do not comprehend.

Maybe God moved Paradise when Enoch was translated.

Now your guessing ... unsure.

That was Paradise. But Abraham's bosom was not that city. Paradise was in heaven.

Paradise is heaven. Abraham's bosom is quite like our bosoms, not your your Mom's but more like your Dad's when he put you on his lap, gave you a hug or had is arm around you, you were close to his bosom.
The disciples were described as being at Jesus bosom.

 

[ScottA]

Indeed, they did not. You have the wrong creation in mind. You should get back to Genesis. There was no big bang. There was only God. No trees burned until after Adam disobeyed God.

That was not actually the question I was referring to. But rather, "Did trees and grasses not burn from Adam (which is the beginning of this world as it currently is)?" (Rhetorical)

The answer is, Yes. Which is to say the Seven Trumpets are not future.​

It changes everything.​

 

[Timtofly]

Did you ever have a dream that seemed real? People have experienced just about everything on earth in our dreams. It seems real. Our minds, memories construct and or God gives us images. Our spirit is real and the reality in heaven ( a different dimension) is real, and we have all our senses and then some. Can you imagine eating a fruit from a tree along a river in heaven and it being fully digested without having any waste, never having to deficate or urinate either, just completely absorbed?


The Garden of Eden is not what I am talking about. That was not heaven, that was on earth and doesn't does not exist, likely destroyed with the Flood.


Christ's blood sacrifice was imputed to all who lived by faith - from Adam on. This is mysterious b we cause of time, which I a physical, created dimension. God and heaven exost outside of our time domain. That God sees and knows the future before it happens is part of thus reality that we do not comprehend.


Now your guessing ... unsure.


Paradise is heaven. Abraham's bosom is quite like our bosoms, not your your Mom's but more like your Dad's when he put you on his lap, gave you a hug or had is arm around you, you were close to his bosom.
The disciples were described as being at Jesus bosom.

Abraham's bosom was not Paradise. Paradise was banned until the Cross. God is very efficient. If Enoch was allowed into Paradise, then that is where the tree of life was, when Enoch arrived. It is not called Enoch's bosom.

Jesus declared Abraham's bosom was real, and that souls had all the reality of a physical body without that body attached. But that place was not Paradise, because all who entered Paradise like Enoch had a physical body, and the tree of Life is a physical tree, with physical fruit.

 

[Timtofly]

That was not actually the question I was referring to. But rather, "Did trees and grasses not burn from Adam (which is the beginning of this world as it currently is)?" (Rhetorical)

The answer is, Yes. Which is to say the Seven Trumpets are not future.​

It changes everything.​

Now you may as well claim there is no future at all. Nothing changes because of your imagination, that the Trumpets are not future.

The Trumpets are the restoration of Israel, and now you call them a phenomenon before Abraham even existed?

History has not been changed because you have a different perspective.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

His body, not His spiritm

Jesus' spirit and body, he does't need a new body like we do, he always had a glorious body, thus he went to the Prisons (holding cells/Paradise) to preach to those in the earth Peter says.

This is true, however all who are in heaven aren't in the location of God's throne. I would imagine heaven looking like earth only perfect and so a quick trip to heaven in a second to accompany this thief would not necessarily bypass His Father since He had not resurrected yet. Just contemplating, conjecture here.

All we have to do brother is follow the directions of texts. The so called Occam's razor it they way to go, lets use the most common sense we can to get to our answers, too many people go with all kind of (as we all know, LOL) complex solutions that honestly are not needed.

Jesus went IN TE EARTH THREE DAYS, scriptures tell us this, Jesus has no need to leave his body, he has a Glorious Body we don't. I understand they thought, well why was he (God) allowed to die? To pay the price for us, he did not have to die, he could have called a legion of angels, but he was on man terms, God allowed him to live as a man, even though he was God the Son. But his spirit was never killed, in reality we never die in spirit either, we were made in God's Image, we are also eternal beings, we merely sleep until the Rapture. We see the Two-witnesses, who also have mortal bodies, being allowed to die also, but only because God has an AGENDA with their deaths TIMING !! So, they go through 1260 days and can not be touched, else whoever tries to touch them dies in the very manner they were going to try and kill them as. In other words if you try to shoot them in the head, you will die from a bullet to the head, no kidding !! So, WHY does God allow Apollyon to kill them after their 1260 days of Ministry? There is a reason. God gave both "The Beast" AND "The Two-witnesses" Ordained by God timelines of 1260 days so that knowing that we can Juxtapose their two timelines against each other, thereby using it as a sort of Navigation Reference Point to get our bearings on those timelines.

In other words if both have 1260 day Offices as Ordained by God, we know this, and thus if the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe (they do) and the Beast dies at the 7th Vial (he does) then we have a reference point gives us a HUGE CLUE if we just think it through, if both have 1260 day offices (they do) and one dies BEFORE the other one dies what does that tell us? It tells is the ones that die first, has to also show up BEFORE the one that dies later, else both could not fulfill their 1260 day offices as ordained by God. It is that simple tbh, but most people never see it. Now when we read in Malachi 4:6 that Elijah is sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord we can understand, because the Anti-Christ is not allowed to go forth conquering until the Day of the Lord. So, the Two-witnesses must show up before the Beast, they are the 1335, which happens 75 dats before the 1260. The 1335 is called THE BLESSING, what better blessing than having five million Jews repent? (Zechariah 13:8-9). So, the 1260 timelines allows us to understand many things, if the Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the 1260, then they must die 75 days before the 7th Vial ends the Beasts life, God has given us a natural Navigational Reference Point unto His timelines.

LOL......this is too funny, I started out talking about keep it simple and gave you one if the mist complex understandings in the whole bible that literally no one understands. But God reveals His secrets to those that wrestle with Him, its my calling of 37 years. Bit even when given, I try the spirits to see if everything fits. The 2-W die before the Beast dies. It fits.

That is the position I held but that changed. Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah were in the presence of God in heaven. And Paul said "To he absent the body is to he present with the LORD. Christians have always believed that they go directly to heaven when they die. That's a fundamental doctrine. Many prophets and people have seen visions of heaven. Where they real visitations or just a mental video of some future time. People claim to have seen heaven, Jesus and their loved ones in NDE's and come back.

Yes, but God tells us they are different, Elijah and Moses (IMHO it will be Moses) are the coming Two-witnesses. God takes those He wishes to fellowship with and needs to use ahead of time, God is God after all, but that doesn't change THE NORMS as seen in the bible.

As per the passage "to be absent is to be present with the Lord" that doesn't add up, as I posted a few posts back in detail. Paul is not saying we go straight to heaven when we die, he is comforting the Corinthians via their trials and tribulations, and he finally tells them this in a manner of speech, I will put it in modern lingo. He says, hey, who cares about all the trials and tribulations we are facing, who cares what they will do to us, I do not even like this earthly body and being here on earth, except for saving souls for Christ Jesus, this is not my home, my home is in heaven, HEY GUYS, cheer up, we all have to die in order to go to be with the Lord, (absent from the body simply means DYING), so we can only go be with the Lord if we die, so dying means we will be with the Lord. NOWHERE does he says as soon as we die (get absent from the body) we go to be with the Lord. He's simply trying to encourage the Corinthians saying to be with the Lord we have to die, so don't fear it, but let us instead welcome it. He is nit saying we go to be wit the Lord as soon as we die. That is we the Dead are raised at the Rapture, as 1 Cor. chapter 15 shows. Meaning he had already taught them this in his first letter, now he is encouraging them to welcome death, OUR BELIEF is we go to be with the Lord in an after life, so stop fearing death.

This is another doctrine I was taught in Church. Born again Spirits of the departed are their and are awaiting to receive resurrected bodies like Jesus. These new multi-dimensonal bodies will have abilities to ascend and descend, appear and disappear, travel great distances with a thought on Earth and back to heaven as angels do. So it is an upgrade.

Jesus keeps his old body, its Glorious, he never knew sin. We go to be with the Lord at the Rapture my friend. God Bless.

 

[bbyrd009]

“its like this and like that and like this”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Now you may as well claim there is no future at all.

That’s kind of what my thought was too. Sorry Scott.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You have missed the whole point that God Himself was the Lamb slain. God did not forsake Jesus on the Cross.

He most certainly did, but for a specific reason.

Psalm 22. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Those terrifying words occur in two Gospels — Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

So, what does that even mean?

God can not come into the presence of sin, His Holy Glory would consume it, which is why sinners can not go to Heaven, thus by refusing their sacrificial gift they condemn themselves to hell or unto living outside of God's presence for eternity. Our old flesh bodies can not go to Heaven, we need new bodies as 1 Cor 15:50 tells us, Flesh and Blood can not enter heaven.

So, why did God forsake (simply means he left Jesus alone on the cross) Jesus on the cross? Because God the Father can not abide sin, just like when those 70 died who opened the Ark of the Covenant, He is so holy His mere presence would consume the sin. So, indeed God had to leave Jesus' presence when he took all of our sins upon him, all murders, rape, lies etc. etc. etc. was upon Jesus, so God's presence had to leave Jesus all alone on that cross to bear our sins by himself alone. No, God did not forsake Jesus as we see the word forsake, but it simple means he left Jesus all alone at that moment in time. I looked that up a long time ago. God pulled His Spirit from Jesus at that moment in time, only Jesus could bear our sins, God can not abide Sin. His Glory is so vast it would destroy the sin. The Holy Spirit and Jesus both have the exact same likeness, but the Father has the abundance of the Glory.

God is the Atonement equally with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

God the Father is not the Atonement, Jesus the Redeemer is. It is semantics because Jesus and God are one, but there is differences. To understand one must understand the Trinity, I am afraid we are going to go off the rails here unless I show what the Trinity actual means, I do so with a demonstration which is very simple to understand, but it gives a perfect example, imho.

Let's take a Three Trillion Gallon Reservoir, lets then say that all three trillion gallons has the exact same phd make up, ever ounce is exactly the same. Likewise God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same in "MAKE UP", they are all three Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Longsuffering, Faithful, Honest, etc. etc. etc. Thus Jesus was the very LIKENESS of the Father, as is the Holy Spirit. But they each have different offices, one is the Father, one is The Redeemer, and one is the Helpmate. So just like the three trillion gallons of water they are exactly the same.

BUT........Lets look deeper, lets take 100 Gallons of that water (Jesus) and pour it over our heads, we would get soaking wet, but we would be A-OK in the end. Now lets take another 100 Gallons of Water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over our heads, we again would be soaking wet, but we would no doubt be A-OK. Now, lets take all Three Trillion Gallons of the water (God the Father) and pour it over our heads, we would surely die. God the Father has THE ABUNDANCE of the Glory. All three are God, but the Holy Spirit can live in our hearts, because he doesn't have the Abundance of the Glory of the Father, likewise Jesus could walk with men, he did not have the abundance of the Glory of God. God the Father killed the 70 when they opened the Ark of the Covenant, yet Jesus walked with men. If God the Father lived in our hearts we would not survive that Glory, but the Holy Spirit can live in our hearts, the Holy Spirit, like Jesus, has the express "LIKENESS" of the Father, but not the abundance of the Glory, thus he can abide in our hearts.

Jesus ended His own life, not by suicide, but because The Atonement could only be God.

Yes, Jesus is God the Redeemer, but he is not the Father.

Jesus conquered death, by not even allowing death to get the victory, but Jesus had to physically die, to spend that physical 3 days in the tomb. He claimed the body would be raised in 3 days.

Yes, the body stayed in the tomb three days, but it was still a Glorious Body, thus Jesus reentered the body after coming back from the Earth. But he did not go to Heaven until after he was raised. He went ere instead.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

The Spirits in prison is not in Heaven. Just like Paradise is not in Heaven. Both are holding places for souls of men, on this earth.

The Spirit and the soul went and released the OT redeemed from Paradise. No body literally descends or ascends from the grave under the earth called sheol or Abraham's bosom as they are the same location, under the earth. The thief did not have his soul descend into the place of the dead. The Atonement was finished and completed. There was no longer a need for the soul to wait in Abraham's bosom.

Maybe, but Daniel is told he will only be raised at the VERY END. See Daniel 12:1-2. I think a few may have been raised but not the masses. But I even doubt that.

That was Paradise. But Abraham's bosom was not that city. Paradise was in heaven. Abraham's bosom was under the earth. Jesus descended to free those in Abraham's bosom. They came out of their graves, and physically ascended to Paradise where the thief was waiting for them. The soul of the thief did not go to Abraham's bosom. It went to Paradise to be with the Lord. The thief died hours later after Abraham's bosom was already empty.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Paradise was that city already prepared, waiting for them. But they could not return on their own, not even by death. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the Cross.

Jesus was in the earth three days. He told Mary he had not yet ascended unto the Father. If Paradise was Heaven it would have simply been called Heaven. Paradise is a holding place for souls.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yet he appeared in bodily form with Elijah at the Transfiguration. So it may not be as cut and dried as some imagine.

Then when you look at the miracles performed by the two witnesses in Revelation 11, you cannot escape the fact that they are actually repeats of what Moses and Elijah did when they were first on earth. Enoch was definitely not a prophet or a miracle worker. Just a friend of God, so God took him to Heaven before the Flood. And Methuselah died in the first month of the year in which the second month began the Flood. So Enoch and Methuselah were absent when the Flood came upon the earth.

Well you dont bury the living . Moses died my friend . But the good news is HE POINTED TO JESUS .
OH YES HE DID . MOSES is with the glorious LORD .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Psalm 22. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Those terrifying words occur in two Gospels — Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

So, what does that even mean?

I once heard a man who understands the Hebrew language quite well make a case for a better translation from Hebrew to English being “entangled” rather than “forsaken.” Entangled like the horns of the animal God provided for sacrifice being entangled in the bush. You know the passage right?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

“its like this and like that and like this”

The enigma is back!

 

[Timtofly]

Psalm 22. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Those terrifying words occur in two Gospels — Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

So, what does that even mean?

It was a question, not a statement of fact.

God did not. Jesus felt that way, but was totally submitted to God.

Paradise was always a physical location. Not a holding cell for souls. If Paradise was under the earth containing souls, then Jesus would have called it Paradise instead of Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom was the holding place of souls.

The Cross and Atonement removed the physical barrier from Paradise placed there in Genesis 3. The Cross emptied Abraham's bosom, and filled Paradise. We don't go to Abraham's bosom. We go to Paradise. It was not a name change. It was a totally different location change. Paradise existed long before Abraham's bosom was necessary.

 

[Enoch111]

I once heard a man who understands the Hebrew language quite well make a case for a better translation from Hebrew to English being “entangled” rather than “forsaken.” Entangled like the horns of the animal God provided for sacrifice being entangled in the bush. You know the passage right?

Forget about "entangled". Forsaken is both linguistically and theologically correct.

The Hebrew for "forsaken" is עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי (‘ă-zaḇ-tā-nî), and here is what it means:
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. עָזַב213 verb leave, forsake, loose (Late Hebrew id. (rare); Arabic

be remote, absent, depart, Assyrian ezêbu, leave, Shaph`el ušezib, rescue, compare Biblical Aramaic שֵׁיזֵב; — Ethiopic

widowed Di973); —

 

[ewq1938]

He most certainly did, but for a specific reason.

Psalm 22. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Those terrifying words occur in two Gospels — Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

So, what does that even mean?

It means Jesus memorized the words of David and could quote them. I can also quote David! ewq1938 says to everyone reading, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Was I talking about myself? No. I don't think God forsook me in the slightest.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Forget about "entangled". Forsaken is both linguistically and theologically correct.

The Hebrew for "forsaken" is עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי (‘ă-zaḇ-tā-nî), and here is what it means:
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. עָזַב213 verb leave, forsake, loose (Late Hebrew id. (rare); Arabic

be remote, absent, depart, Assyrian ezêbu, leave, Shaph`el ušezib, rescue, compare Biblical Aramaic שֵׁיזֵב; — Ethiopic

widowed Di973); —

Meh. I’m not too big on taking words from Aramaic to English then to Hebrew and back to English. And if you want me to try, you will have to supply me gobs of black coffee.

I don’t say I recall exactly how the mans line of reasoning went and it’s not like I can fact-check a Hebrew speaker since I don’t speak and intimately know Hebrew.

I also vaguely recall a studious paper of some sort on Aramaic which presented that a more apt translation would be something like…my God, my God, to this I was destined.
But once again, how would I dain to fact check that?

But I will say something doesn’t sit right with me about Jesus losing or stumbling in His trust at the end and thinking God had abandoned Him.

But oddly, I can see extreme pain causing Him to say something more like…Or God, oh God, the pain! But to this I was destined, to this I agreed and desired and left the glory I shared with You. Forgive them!

 

[ewq1938]

But I will say something doesn’t sit right with me about Jesus losing or stumbling in His trust at the end and thinking God had abandoned Him.

Right. He was just quoting David because some of Psalm 22 is Messianic, but not the forsaking part. That was David's own statement and he was wrong!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Right. He was just quoting David because some of Psalm 22 is Messianic, but not the forsaking part. That was David's own statement and he was wrong!

Hmmm. Yeah. Okay. I can see it that way…