This Makes More Sense To Me Now

[bbyrd009]

ok well prolly not?
Eden was “paradise,” etc

When you can come up with some symbolic phrase that explains literal beheadings let us know.

Yes! And use two or three verses to support it!

ok, when it comes together ill holler, but it would surely be…anticlimactic, for ppl looking for facts. Not sure if losing ones head represents those who have made Christ their head or not yet? Doesnt seem quite right

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Actually, I suspected that, just wasn't sure. Paradise is just another name for Heaven, I'll have to retract that assumption.

Can't be the case.

Jesus told the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, Truly you will be with me in paradise today.

1.) Jesus was in the earth for 3 days.

2.) After Jesus is raised from the dead in John 20 he tells Mary, don't touch me, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. She being a sinner would have defiled the sacrifice, Jesus brought back the gift of the Holy Spirit from the Father, then told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds.

Paradise is a holding place for Jewish souls, at least at that time. No one goes to heaven, as many seem to think, until after Jesus calls us home at the (pre trib) Rapture. In 1 Cor. 15 it clearly says the dead rise first (same time basically, Paul just wanted to assure them their loved ones would not be left behind as in hey they are rising even before you are taken), then we who are alive will be changed (we simply leave our sin flesh bodies), and we all meet in the air to go to Heaven. Why would the dead be raised at the very end to go to heaven if they were already in heaven?

 

[ScottA]

Do those 7 Trumpets release judgments, or are they calling Israel to assembly, and events happen during that assembly?

Many have not understood the timing of the seven trumpets. To understand, ask yourself of the first trumpet, "Did trees and grasses not burn from the beginning?"

Indeed, they did.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Not true! It was in Hades. It was emptied when Jesus defeated sin, the grave, satan and Hades 2000 years ago. Paradise is heaven.

A lot of people make that argument, but Daniel was told he would be raised at the very end, or at the time he was shown in Dan. 12:1-2.

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Some verse in Matthew or one of the Gospels make some people think this, but the overall thrust of the bible overwhelmingly suggests otherwise. It however is something to knockaround. I do not say others should not think this way or debate this, it has a real verse that points to something, but not much support elsewhere.

 

[David H.]

There were 3 main festivals that every man had to attend - Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.
Passover was at time of barley harvest.
Pentecost, wheat harvest.
Tabernacles, olives and grapes.

So “do not harm the oil (from olives) and the wine” (from grapes) makes some sense to me now.

The thing I disagree with in the man I was listening to when that clicked for me is regarding first fruits, main harvest and gleaning.
I think first fruits already happened, with Jesus and the many of their dead they saw walking around. Then the main harvest would be the gathering together and the gleaning would be…the 144,000 mid trib…I dunno, maybe. Makes sense to me anyway.

edit: ah no, it can’t work. It absolutely can’t. I just had to discard a pretrib rapture after 16 years. At least I cannot find a way to make it work. Oh my mind is in a fierce tangle!

There was a time when I saw multiple raptures as well, but once I learned to synchronize these rapture events as one great event, it all made sense. It is not that there are multiple raptures, but one day when Christ returns and all seven thunders happen at once.... When you realize this, there is no time for second chances as positd by the left behind movies, it then gets you to see the urgency of Prophecy to be ready.... so many have used the urgency as a warning of the rapture only followed by a second chance.... which is a strong delusion in my opinion. I Hope you understand what I am saying here... There is one day coming which we must be ready for, and it will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, and there are no second chances.
God bless

 

[WPM]

A lot of people make that argument, but Daniel was told he would be raised at the very end, or at the time he was shown in Dan. 12:1-2.

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Some verse in Matthew or one of the Gospels make some people think this, but the overall thrust of the bible overwhelmingly suggests otherwise. It however is something to knockaround. I do not say others should not think this way or debate this, it has a real verse that points to something, but not much support elsewhere.

That is talking about our dead bodies. But, our spirits go into the presence of the Lord upon death. There is multiple Scripture to support that.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus was in the earth for 3 days

His body, not His spiritm

After Jesus is raised from the dead in John 20 he tells Mary, don't touch me, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. She being a sinner would have defiled the sacrifice, Jesus brought back the gift of the Holy Spirit from the Father, then told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds.

This is true, however all who are in heaven aren't in the location of God's throne. I would imagine heaven looking like earth only perfect and so a quick trip to heaven in a second to accompany this thief would not necessarily bypass His Father since He had not resurrected yet. Just contemplating, conjecture here.

Paradise is a holding place for Jewish souls, at least at that time. No one goes to heaven, as many seem to think, until after Jesus calls us home at the (pre trib) Rapture

That is the position I held but that changed. Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah were in the presence of God in heaven. And Paul said "To he absent the body is to he present with the LORD. Christians have always believed that they go directly to heaven when they die. That's a fundamental doctrine. Many prophets and people have seen visions of heaven. Where they real visitations or just a mental video of some future time. People claim to have seen heaven, Jesus and their loved ones in NDE's and come back.

Why would the dead be raised at the very end to go to heaven if they were already in heaven?

This is another doctrine I was taught in Church. Born again Spirits of the departed are their and are awaiting to receive resurrected bodies like Jesus. These new multi-dimensonal bodies will have abilities to ascend and descend, appear and disappear, travel great distances with a thought on Earth and back to heaven as angels do. So it is an upgrade.

 

[marks]

There was a time when I saw multiple raptures as well, but once I learned to synchronize these rapture events as one great event, it all made sense. It is not that there are multiple raptures, but one day when Christ returns and all seven thunders happen at once.... When you realize this, there is no time for second chances as positd by the left behind movies, it then gets you to see the urgency of Prophecy to be ready.... so many have used the urgency as a warning of the rapture only followed by a second chance.... which is a strong delusion in my opinion. I Hope you understand what I am saying here... There is one day coming which we must be ready for, and it will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, and there are no second chances.
God bless

There are several places in the Revelation that say, "And they repented not . . ." And this is echoed in,

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV
10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Having refused to receive the love for the truth - now - they will be unable to then, bound over to condemnation.

We know that after the great earthquake in Jerusalem, some give glory to God. There are some other passages to tell me there will be still a remnant. But I don't hold out hope to anyone who rejects the truth now that they will have an opportunity later.

Even in the current day, God speaks of given certain ones over to their sin, to be lost in it. Today is the day of salvation, make no mistake!

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, I suspected that, just wasn't sure. Paradise is just another name for Heaven, I'll have to retract that assumption. For some reason I thought no one would be allowed in heaven until Christ's death and resurrection, THEN His blood was imputed to all the OT prophets and people of faith. But Enoch was taken up to be with the Lord. And Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mt. off Transfiguration. They we evidently in heaven as well. And the person caught up to the third heaven, Paradise. Makes more sense.

Yep!

And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows how he was caught up into Paradise (the third heaven) and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 12 Cor. 12:3-4
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matt.17:3
>>So Jesus' blood was imputed to ,the OT faithful outside of our time domain. There wasn't a division of Hades separated by a gulf - Heaven is separated by a gulf from Hades. Ot people did not wait. In that spiritual realm, it was made manifest already ... I guess.
Then the question of where Christ went when He died has been a sort of myth I guess?

Many good people sinned and then died and had no way to have those sins forgiven so Christ went to hades to save them...likely accepting him and his blood from the cross to be forgiven.

"(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?"Eph. 4:9 was interpreted as Him descending to Hades. Likely this was just a reference of Him descending from Heaven and emptying Himself into the womb of Mary.
But then again, He stated to the thief, that they would be in Paradise today. That's where they went, to Heaven
Now about Abraham's bosom. A bosom was considered a lap, close to the chest of, as if a person gave you a hug, had there arm around you, as we see here: "Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved." John 13:23
Thanks for that correction.

:)

 

[michaelvpardo]

In Matthew 27:52-53 the tombs broke open when Jesus died. How? The earthquake lodged some of the tombs, the tombs that were corked like Jesus' tomb but not people buried. There were tens of thousands of graves, outside the city. They did not all open. There was no resurrection of people at this time. The only logical explanation is that a people who died within a few days of this occurance were resusitated as Lazarus was, not resurrected. It was just another miracle surrounding Jesus death and resurrection. If it a phase of the first resurrection, than all the Israelites who lived by faith and died would have appeared. Just many is more than a few/pre day within a couple days. They First Resurrection is coming soon!

The Lord hasn't taught me about the passage, but some people believe that Jesus lead old testament saints like Samuel and David out of "Abraham's bosom'" to fulfill the prophecy of psalm 68:18:

"18You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the Lord God might dwell there."

Paul quoted this in Ephesians 4:8, but in reference to spiritual gifts. However if Jesus fulfilled this in giving spiritual gifts, He must also have " led captivity captive," Though this could also be understood as a reference to His church. ( We were once slaves to sin, but now called slaves to righteousness. )

 

[Ronald D Milam]

That is talking about our dead bodies. But, our spirits go into the presence of the Lord upon death. There is multiple Scripture to support that.

That's not the case, that is another instance when people can not tell the difference between Paul's salesmanship as a minister of these congregations, and take his letters for "Thus saith the Lord scriptures". The RCC made them scriptures, they are Paul's letters admonishing and trying to uplift these peoples hopes who had little to hope in save the promise Jesus and eternal salvation. However in this case its a contextual issue, as I show below.

If we go straight to be with the Lord why are the dead RAISED at the very end, at the same time as those who are alive are CHANGED (die and go to heaven as spirit men) in the blink of an eye?

So, how do these things get twisted? For starters, people do not read the context in full. Paul is speaking unto the Corinthians, trying to uplift and encourage them, he is saying, we all suffer on this earth in chapter 4, then as chapter 5 opens he is trying to reassure the Corinthians that suffering in this world is OK, for this is not who we really are, we are really absent from the Lord while living in these old flesh bodies.

2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of God(Glorious Body), an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this [body] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:(Glorious Body)

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan,(This body) being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.(We have to die in order to get our glorious bodies is the gist of this)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, KNOWING THAT, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (While we live in these bodies on this earth we are absent from the Lord)

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {{{We believe in the promises}}}

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body(We will be glad to die so we can GO AND BE, with the Lord) , and to be present with the Lord.

It never says when we are absent from the body we are then transmuted at that very moment to be with the Lord, it is saying, we are WILLING or we would RATHER not be alive in these sin flesh bodies, but instead we would rather to be alive in our Glorious Bodies which we have FAITH will come unto us, after we die.

So, the suffering of this world is trivial, we don't even want to be here, when we die, those of us justified by faith will have glorious bodies and live with the Lord. (That is the gist of it).

Nowhere does Paul say exactly when we go to be with the Lord. BUT HERE, he does say that those in the Lord SLEEP until the Rapture !!

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So why are the Dead Raised if they are already with the Lord?

Paul is merely saying Hey, guys this life has a purpose, to reach lost souls etc. but if we are persecuted/die, its OK, this is not our home anyway, to be absent from this body means we will be present [eventually] with the Lord. In other words you are going to have to die at some point to eventually be in the presence of the Lord. Paul didn't have to go back over his first letter again, they understood that the dead in Christ sleeps in the grave until the Rapture.

Yes, we have to be absent from this body before we can be in the Lords presence. What it does not say is as soon as we die (absent from the body) we go to be with the Lord. The truth is most people just can't understand the KJV very well, or do not use the full context. The full letter starts in chapter 1, of course, reading it that way we get the full context or gist of the situation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Can't be the case.

Jesus told the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, Truly you will be with me in paradise today.

1.) Jesus was in the earth for 3 days.

Oh! Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I’m glad I slogged through the thread again.

 

[WPM]

That's not the case, that is another instance when people can not tell the difference between Paul's salesmanship as a minister of these congregations, and take his letters for "Thus saith the Lord scriptures". The RCC made them scriptures, they are Paul's letters admonishing and trying to uplift these peoples hopes who had little to hope in save the promise Jesus and eternal salvation. However in this case its a contextual issue, as I show below.

If we go straight to be with the Lord why are the dead RAISED at the very end, at the same time as those who are alive are CHANGED (die and go to heaven as spirit men) in the blink of an eye?

Paul is merely saying Hey, guys this life has a purpose, to reach lost souls etc. but if we are persecuted/die, its OK, this is not our home anyway, to be absent from this body means we will be present [eventually] with the Lord. In other words you are going to have to die at some point to eventually be in the presence of the Lord. Paul didn't have to go back over his first letter again, they understood that the dead in Christ sleeps in the grave until the Rapture.

Yes, we have to be absent from this body before we can be in the Lords presence. What it does not say is as soon as we die (absent from the body) we go to be with the Lord. The truth is most people just can't understand the KJV very well, or do not use the full context. The full letter starts in chapter 1, of course, reading it that way we get the full context or gist of the situation.

You are quoting physical realities. The body dies. The body goes into the grave. But our spirits go to be with the Lord until He comes.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

 

[WPM]

Paul is merely saying Hey, guys this life has a purpose, to reach lost souls etc. but if we are persecuted/die, its OK, this is not our home anyway, to be absent from this body means we will be present [eventually] with the Lord. In other words you are going to have to die at some point to eventually be in the presence of the Lord. Paul didn't have to go back over his first letter again, they understood that the dead in Christ sleeps in the grave until the Rapture.

Yes, we have to be absent from this body before we can be in the Lords presence. What it does not say is as soon as we die (absent from the body) we go to be with the Lord. The truth is most people just can't understand the KJV very well, or do not use the full context. The full letter starts in chapter 1, of course, reading it that way we get the full context or gist of the situation.

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There was a time when I saw multiple raptures as well, but once I learned to synchronize these rapture events as one great event, it all made sense. It is not that there are multiple raptures, but one day when Christ returns and all seven thunders happen at once.... When you realize this, there is no time for second chances as positd by the left behind movies, it then gets you to see the urgency of Prophecy to be ready.... so many have used the urgency as a warning of the rapture only followed by a second chance.... which is a strong delusion in my opinion. I Hope you understand what I am saying here... There is one day coming which we must be ready for, and it will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, and there are no second chances.
God bless

Well, my thoughts abruptly changed the other day when I came across a certain verse and something in it I’d never noted. I had to, after 16 years, let go of the first resurrection being pretrib. Partway into this very thread was when it happened.
I do know we will be judged harder. And I also do think some (maybe not many, but some) will, or could, come to God during the tribulation, perhaps by the preaching of the two witnesses.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You are quoting physical realities. The body dies. The body goes into the grave. But our spirits go to be with the Lord until He comes.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

Lets make this simple, you are thinking in EARTLY TERMS, God already sees our sin flesh as dead, we are quickened (made alive) via the blood of Jesus, thus our Spirits or not corrupted but our sin flesh is. Thus after we die our sin flesh returns to the dirt, and we are raised, UNCORRUPTIBLE (means with no0 sin flesh, but raised as Spirit men).

I can prove this via about 10 verses. CONTEXT mandates we back up to verse 42.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Sin Flesh); it is raised in incorruption(As a Spirit man in Christ): 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Sin Flesh) inherit incorruption(Heaven/Glorious Bodies).

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed(Die), 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump(Jesus ends the Church Age Harvest, the Feast of Trumps always ended the Summer Harvest): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(as Spirit Men, just like verse 44 says), and we shall be changed(Die and go to Heaven as Spirit Men).

53 For this corruptible(Sin Flesh) must put on incorruption(must CHANGE to a Spirit Man in Christ), and this mortal must put on immortality.
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[Ronald D Milam]

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

This is FUTURE TENSE my friend, you are seeing Jesus in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. So, we will be MEN in Heaven at THAT TIME, and there will of course be MEN on the earth at that time during the 70th week, you overthink it here, or you misunderstand the timing of the rapture. Between you and the Book of Revelation and End Times is my calling, for 37 years.

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I wont go through all of these but you make the same mistake in all, you are citing a scripture that is pointing to a future point in time, not the present time. Anything spoken of about after the 70th week starts will have men in Heaven and on earth.

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

We all know Moses and Elijah were taken, they will be the Two-witnesses.

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

Those in Faith are in Paradise, a holding place for those who sleep in the Lord. Those not in Paradise or in a sort of Hades. Not hellfire, but not Paradise either. The Lord gives us their HREARTS DESIRE, they are really sleeping. God knows our heart as, even when we sleep at night. Those under the 5th Seal are not even dead when Jesus prophesies about them, the Seals happen BEFORE the Wrath of God falls and BEFORE the Anti-Christs 42 month rule even starts. Like I said, Revelation is My calling, most people just do not get it to be honest.

Here is the overall gist, you are taking verses and thinking they prove something when they prove just the opposite in most cases. I did my analysis very simple, I showed that WE SLEEP, then we GET RAISED at the time of the Rapture. Again, WHY would anyone who is with the Lord need to be RAISED at the very end. So, I do the simple and prove a point tat can not be overcome, and you are trying real hard, but you cant overcome a truth brother.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

Things like this, you conflate the facts, we know what Stephen did, bit we also know what Paul says, you know the one the Lord took up to heaven and taught in the spirit, that Paul, says that we will SLEEP until the Rapture. Of course Jesus will receive Stephens Spirit, but not in Stephens timing, in his own timing, unless he took him like he did Elijah, but the bible says specicfically that the Dead in Christ is raised at the very end. As does Dan. 12:1-2.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

I explain this IN DEPTH 2 or 3 posts above, it only means we MUST DIE to [eventually] be present with the Lord. Nowhere does it even infer that we go straight to the Lord's presence, but 1 Cor. 15 says WE SLEEP until the Trump sounds. Inferences are not actual POINTS like I make.

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

Death is a promotion for everyone in Christ, that doesn't mean we go straight to be with the Lord.

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

This is AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture, the next verse, Rev. 14:14 is a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture as a matter of fact.

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

This happens AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture, the Church is in Heaven as Rev. 4:4 says, and as Revelation 4:1 shows. The 24 Elders is a CODE, look at 1 Chronicles 24, the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. In Rev. 1 and 5:9-10 we are called Kings and Priests. Thus the 24 Elders represent the Church in Heaven as Priests. We are REDEEMED by Jesus' blood i Rev. 5:9-10. We have the three things promised to the Church members who OVERCAME in Rev. 4:4, we have Crowns of Gold on as promised in Rev. 2:10, we have White Raiment (robes) on as promised in Rev. 3:5 and we sit at God's THRONE as promised in Rev. 3:21 to those who OVERCOME !!

The 144,000 are another CODED REFERENCE, to Israel, just like "The Woman" is in Rev. 12. God said he saved Himself 7000 men. God said there is 144,000 make virgins who has the Fathers name in their foreheads. God also however says in Zechariah 13:8-9 that 1/3 of the Jews will call him their Gid and he will call them His peoples whilst 2/3 will be cut-off and die, then in the very next verse we see God's Wrath falls in Zechariah 14:1-2. So, did God lie, or is it 7000, 144,000 or 1/3 of the Jews, and there are 15 million Jews alive today so that would be 5 million Jews !! Which it it, can all three be correct? Well, Gid can not lie. God uses CODES, the 10 Virgin Female Brides represents who? The COMPLETE Church, both male ?& female, of course, or 2 billion people. Whenever God TIMES a Number by another Number He is adding emphasis, especially if that number is also a CODED SIGNAL. The number 7 = Divine Completion, the # 10 = Completion, The number 12 = Fulness etc. etc,

7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000 or ALL Israel who repents or Divine Completion times Completion !!

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents.

The 1/3 will = 5 Million Jews who repents.

ALL THREE mean the exact same thing, Amen. So, the 144,000 are the Jews who Flee Judea when they see the AoD at the 1290, thus Rev. 6 are Prophetic in Nature, not real time events. Only the 7th Seal brings the Judgments, that is why it is over in Rev. 8. All 7 Seals have to be taken off the scroll before the Scroll can be opened and the Judgments pronounced. The reason the Angel is told to HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) is so the Fleeing Jews can make it to the Petra/Bozrah area. Notice, it specifically says HURT NOT the Earth,. Sea nor Trees, well what hurts those things? The Trumpet Judgments burn the trees and grasses, hurts the seas and the earth !! God is really telling the Angel this, do nit allow the plagues to fall until Israel are in their SAFE ZONE in the Petra/Bozrah sheepfold area.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

Rev. 20:4 shows that all the Martyrs from the 70t week are NOT those seen in Rev. 7:9-17, they are the Pre Trib Raptured Church. Those seen here in Rev. 20:4 are the Martyrs seen under the Altar, who are only raised AFTER Jesus' Second Coming !!

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

Yes, AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture, and the 5th Seal is Jesus PROPHESYING what is in tier hearts.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

This is again AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture, so there will be men in Heaven at this time, we te Church have after all been Raptured and we are by then the Bride of Christ, so all this effort is in vain tbh. BUT.......Those under the Altar are not even dead as Jesus speaks, they die DURING the worst Troubles ever seen (Greatest Troubles Ever) and that can only come after Rev. 8 starts, Jesus is prophesying what's about to befall mankind as soon as the Judgment Trumps (Asteroid).

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture. Its kinda sad to me tbh. Not understanding the are Trib Rature has people in a place where they will never understand God's actually TIMING on these end time events that are soon to come. Every point you just made had to be made from a person who does not understand the Pre Trib Rapture, else why try to prove to me men are in heaven and on earth at the same time, I KNOW THAT.......But only for the 70th week, AFTER the Rapture, which I say is when we SLEEP UNTIL that point in time. See my point, no matter who is right (I know I am) you still made an argument that goes NOWHERE when you realize I am pre Trib and all of those or most of those points are 70th week events.

God Bless

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus described two locations in Luke 16:23-31, one Hades and the other Paradise, both existing throughout the Old Testament times.
This was not a parable. If it was, there would not be specifice names of familiar people used..Why describe spiritual locations to mean symbolically something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from describing something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptures of fictional abstract territories. These places existed. All those of faith went to Paradise. The wicked inbelievers went to Hades, a dark cave/ dungeon in the underworld.
Abraham's bosom is just that. He was there and would greet you with a hug, his arm around you and so you were at his bosom. I am sure you will meet him some day and you will be at his bosom.
* correction, Paradise is just a synonym for Heaven and that is where Abraham was.

The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. How could a soul eat from a literal physical tree without a body?

Paradise was off limits to all of Adam's descendants. Even those souls in Abraham's bosom. Not until the Cross and a physical resurrection, could Adam's dead corruptible flesh enter Paradise. Paradise was in heaven since the Flood. Abraham's bosom was under the earth since before the Flood. Unless you think those born of Adam all went to sheol instead prior to the Flood. They certainly did not enter Paradise except Enoch. Enoch was not found on earth, nor under the earth. Maybe God moved Paradise when Enoch was translated. Certainly it was not on earth after the Flood. It did not sink to sheol. Then those down their would have attempted to eat, and live in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the reason the Garden, Paradise was banned. It then became that city that was heavenly that Abraham told people about. Hebrews 11:10

"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

That was Paradise. But Abraham's bosom was not that city. Paradise was in heaven. Abraham's bosom was under the earth. Jesus descended to free those in Abraham's bosom. They came out of their graves, and physically ascended to Paradise where the thief was waiting for them. The soul of the thief did not go to Abraham's bosom. It went to Paradise to be with the Lord. The thief died hours later after Abraham's bosom was already empty.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Paradise was that city already prepared, waiting for them. But they could not return on their own, not even by death. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Can't be the case.

Jesus told the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, Truly you will be with me in paradise today.

1.) Jesus was in the earth for 3 days.

2.) After Jesus is raised from the dead in John 20 he tells Mary, don't touch me, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. She being a sinner would have defiled the sacrifice, Jesus brought back the gift of the Holy Spirit from the Father, then told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds.

Paradise is a holding place for Jewish souls, at least at that time. No one goes to heaven, as many seem to think, until after Jesus calls us home at the (pre trib) Rapture. In 1 Cor. 15 it clearly says the dead rise first (same time basically, Paul just wanted to assure them their loved ones would not be left behind as in hey they are rising even before you are taken), then we who are alive will be changed (we simply leave our sin flesh bodies), and we all meet in the air to go to Heaven. Why would the dead be raised at the very end to go to heaven if they were already in heaven?

You have missed the whole point that God Himself was the Lamb slain. God did not forsake Jesus on the Cross. God is the Atonement equally with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus ended His own life, not by suicide, but because The Atonement could only be God. Jesus conquered death, by not even allowing death to get the victory, but Jesus had to physically die, to spend that physical 3 days in the tomb. He claimed the body would be raised in 3 days. So the Lord told the thief that the thief would be with the Lord in Paradise that day. The Spirit and the soul went and released the OT redeemed from Paradise. No body literally descends or ascends from the grave under the earth called sheol or Abraham's bosom as they are the same location, under the earth. The thief did not have his soul descend into the place of the dead. The Atonement was finished and completed. There was no longer a need for the soul to wait in Abraham's bosom.

No one who has accepted the Atonement since the Cross has even tasted death. There is literally no one to resurrect from the dead. They are all in Paradise. They will be gathered from Paradise physically and meet us in the air. All together at the 5th and 6th Seals the entire Church will be glorified, as in putting on those robes of white. Paul calls it putting on immortality. We become the full image of God as sons of God.