Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Truth7t7]

The following illustrates my interpretation of Paul's statement.

1) Israel, those among the descendants of Jacob who are also children of the Promised Seed.
2) Israel, all of Jacob's descendants.

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Church is the "Israel Of God, children of the promised seed

You desperately try to apply the word "Israel" to ethnic distinction in the Church, "Wrong"

Galatians 4:28KJV
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Acts 2:39KJV
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 11:25-27 is one of the most highly debated passages in all of scripture.

What does it mean? What was Paul teaching there?

Is it a new prophecy that Paul was making about some time in the future when all Israelites, or everyone in the nation of Israel, will be saved?

With regard to the "new prophecy", I believe you chose the wrong verse. The new prophecy is found in the previous verse.

Romans 11:24

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?​

Paul writes the subsequent paragraph to support his contention above, that the natural branches will be grafted back onto the tree. Here Paul predicts that Israel will be grafted back onto her own tree at some time after the day he wrote his epistle. In the mean time, only a fraction of Israel is being saved, while the rest are hardened. He continues,

Romans 11:25-26

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,​

What is the mystery? It is no secret that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. That is a given. The mystery Paul reveals, so that we Gentiles will not wise in our own estimation, is that the partial hardening will not persist. After the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, after that condition is complete and fulfilled, then Israel will no longer remain partially hardened.

Contrary to what some believe, Paul is not indicating that the saving of all Israel is the fulness of the Gentiles. Even those who claim that "all Israel" includes both Jews and Gentiles, will not find support for that position here, since Paul is drawing a clear distinction between "the fulness of the Gentiles" and "all Israel." If Paul intended to say "All Israel, that is, the church consisting of both Jews and Gentiles" then he would not speak about the fulness of the Gentiles; he would speak about the fulness of the Church.

And if Paul understood "Israel" as a reference to the church, he would never suggest that a partial hardening has happened to the church. Israel is NOT the church, which is why Paul can say that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. All of those who are counted among the true, spiritual, church have been freed of hardening. None of them is hardened. There is no such thing as a partially hardened spiritual Israel.

No, rather, the nation of Israel is populated by some who have hardened hearts, and some who have softened hearts. Some of them will be saved while others will not be saved. This condition will persist, Paul says, until after God has brought all the Gentiles into the church that he intends to bring into the church. After that, he says, then Isaiah 59 will be fulfilled. Isaiah is not talking about removing ungodliness from the church; he predicts that God will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

Paul is predicting that God will, someday, graft natural branches back onto their own olive tree. He will wait until he has grafted all the wild branches to the tree. Then, after that, he will fulfill his promise to save "all Israel". In other words, Israel will no longer contain people with hardened hearts. All of Israel, eventually, will be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Church is the "Israel Of God, children of the promised seed

You desperately try to apply the word "Israel" to ethnic distinction in the Church, "Wrong"

Galatians 4:28KJV
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Acts 2:39KJV
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

I don't think I did what you said I did. Did I apply the word "Israel" differently than Paul intended? I don't think so. Even those who posit a new kind of Israel, consisting of genuine believers from both the Jews and the Gentiles" refer to that group as "Spiritual Israel" Paul never used that term.

Now, he did use the phrase "Israel of God" in the following passage:

Galatians 6:15-16

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.​

In my view, Paul refers to two groups: 1) those who walk by this rule, and 2) the Israel of God. There are those who argue that Paul is speaking of one group, referring to those who "walk by this rule" as "the Israel of God." According to this interpretation, among other things that they all share in common, the Israel of God have this one thing in common: they live life as if circumcision wasn't significant or important.

As I say, I don't think this is what Paul meant because he always allows for the fact that Jewish people have become followers of Jesus, and for THEM circumcision is very significant. For instance, in his argument found in Romans chapter 4, Paul maintains the distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. In that context, Paul argues that the uncircumcised are saved by faith if they share the same faith as Abraham, who was declared "righteous" while he was still uncircumcised. Paul declares that Abraham is the father of all those who believe.

Romans 4:11-12

[A]nd he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.​

Paul acknowledges that circumcised folks have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, and that Abraham is their father also. It stands to reason, then, that the "Israel of God" are Jewish believers, having been circumcised, who walk by the same rule as their non-Jewish brethren, that is, although they are circumcised, they agree with Paul that neither circumcision is anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Paul is making a different point in Romans 9. In that context, Paul might have used the phrase "Israel of the promise", though he didn't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Olive Tree Is "Jesus Christ" not a Nation named Israel in a geographical location

The Church is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 clearly teaches, those Jews whom God has called through foreknowledge will be saved and grafted into Jesus Christ the olive tree and added to the Church on earth

If the Olive Tree is Jesus Christ why didn't Paul say this? Seems odd doesn't it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ethnic Jews upon this earth are no more chosen than Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Chinese, whatever, God has no respect for persons

It's Zionist propaganda in false teachings that has you bound Charlie, Sorta like the guy preaching this in Texas, Adulterer John Hagee Americas #1 Christian Zionist in false teachings

Let's review Deuteronomy 7:6, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." And why did God choose that Family Line? "Because he loved your fathers . . ." Deuteronomy 4:37

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Jews have always believed they are saved by the mere fact they are a Jew, the chosen of God.

They believed it when Christ came and they believe it now at this present time.

Rom. 9:6-8 is Paul denouncing that national salvation of the Jews.

God only recognizes those of Israel who are in Christ. The rest are lost, but still God's chosen.

I don't think Paul is denouncing national salvation of the Jews in that passage. I think Paul has set out to prove national salvation will eventually take place. I think Paul is attempting to deny that God will save all Israel wholesale, simply based on ethnicity. The Israel of the promise will be populated by descendants of Jacob, and among that group will not be found a person without a circumcised heart. I think that's his point.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't think I did what you said I did. Did I apply the word "Israel" differently than Paul intended? I don't think so. Even those who posit a new kind of Israel, consisting of genuine believers from both the Jews and the Gentiles" refer to that group as "Spiritual Israel" Paul never used that term.

Now, he did use the phrase "Israel of God" in the following passage:

Galatians 6:15-16

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.​

In my view, Paul refers to two groups: 1) those who walk by this rule, and 2) the Israel of God. There are those who argue that Paul is speaking of one group, referring to those who "walk by this rule" as "the Israel of God." According to this interpretation, among other things that they all share in common, the Israel of God have this one thing in common: they live life as if circumcision wasn't significant or important.

As I say, I don't think this is what Paul meant because he always allows for the fact that Jewish people have become followers of Jesus, and for THEM circumcision is very significant. For instance, in his argument found in Romans chapter 4, Paul maintains the distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. In that context, Paul argues that the uncircumcised are saved by faith if they share the same faith as Abraham, who was declared "righteous" while he was still uncircumcised. Paul declares that Abraham is the father of all those who believe.

Romans 4:11-12

[A]nd he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.​

Paul acknowledges that circumcised folks have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, and that Abraham is their father also. It stands to reason, then, that the "Israel of God" are Jewish believers, having been circumcised, who walk by the same rule as their non-Jewish brethren, that is, although they are circumcised, they agree with Paul that neither circumcision is anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Paul is making a different point in Romans 9. In that context, Paul might have used the phrase "Israel of the promise", though he didn't.

We disagree, Roman's 9:6-8 speaks of "Israel" of the flesh "Jews" and "Israel" the Church, children of the promised seed both Jew and Gentile without ethnic distinction

Thanks for the conversation we disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

I think Paul is attempting to deny that God will save all Israel wholesale, simply based on ethnicity. The Israel of the promise will be populated by descendants of Jacob, and among that group will not be found a person without a circumcised heart. I think that's his point.

There ya go, you have created two distinct groups within the Church, saved ethnic Jews and saved Gentiles, "Wrong" Paul writes below there isn't a distinction as you claim above

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claim is "False" Jesus Christ is the root and the olive tree, Unbelieving Israel are "Branches" that were broken off, once again "Branches" not the root or olive tree as you falsely claim

Jesus Christ Is (The Root) and (The Olive Tree)

Romans 11:17-21KJV
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Jesus is not the root. If we suppose that Jesus is the root, then we also suppose that Jewish people are connected to Jesus Christ by virtue of their birth. Paul would never argue that anyone, whether Jew or Gentile is attached to Jesus Christ at birth.

The Gentiles are "wild" branches because they are born to Gentile families, but not because of genetics. Because Gentiles are born into Gentile families, they are distant from the promises God made the Patriarchs, especially Abraham. Israel is "natural" branches, not due to genetics, but because as Paul says in Romans 9, they grew up in a God-given culture who was given promises and covenants and temple service and they come directly from the fathers. Romans 9:3-5

The root, in Paul's analogy are the fathers and the promises God made to THEM. Abraham's descendants are the cultivated olive tree and Jacob's descendants are on that tree naturally, and remain on that tree by faith, while the Gentiles who have the same faith as Abraham are added to him and take advantage of those promises as long as they remain by faith.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The remnant obtains salvation and is added to the "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Gentile

As you have been shown "Israel" doesn't obtain salvation and is blinded

Israel Hath Not Obtained

The Election Hath Obtained

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Don't dismiss Romans 11:11-16. Put Romans 11:1, and 11:7 together with Romans 11:11 and what do we get? Not only has God not cast away his people, he has not cast away their nation. The nation of Israel has not fallen, even though they rejected Jesus and put him on a cross. God has a further use for the nation, which is why the nation will appear again in our future.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They saw him in the first century and their lack of faith killed the Lord. How else do get just a NT remnant if not by Faith.

Try reading rom 11 like this...,


Rom 11

25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

“The Deliverer (Messiah) will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

In that passage, does God remove ungodliness from the Gentiles or does he remove ungodliness from Jacob?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What separate way are Israel saved?

Acts 13:46
And [at the same time] Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and confidently, saying, “It was necessary that God’s message [of salvation through faith in Christ] be spoken to you [Jews] first. Since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, now we turn to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:11
So whether it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed and trusted in and relied on with confidence.
12 Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?


One Gospel and one way

Where in the Bible does it say that National Salvation happens any other way than individual salvation? I don't think it is any different.

 

[WPM]

Jesus is not the root. If we suppose that Jesus is the root, then we also suppose that Jewish people are connected to Jesus Christ by virtue of their birth. Paul would never argue that anyone, whether Jew or Gentile is attached to Jesus Christ at birth.

The Gentiles are "wild" branches because they are born to Gentile families, but not because of genetics. Because Gentiles are born into Gentile families, they are distant from the promises God made the Patriarchs, especially Abraham. Israel is "natural" branches, not due to genetics, but because as Paul says in Romans 9, they grew up in a God-given culture who was given promises and covenants and temple service and they come directly from the fathers. Romans 9:3-5

The root, in Paul's analogy are the fathers and the promises God made to THEM. Abraham's descendants are the cultivated olive tree and Jacob's descendants are on that tree naturally, and remain on that tree by faith, while the Gentiles who have the same faith as Abraham are added to him and take advantage of those promises as long as they remain by faith.

Once again, the opposite is the truth. Jesus was not just “the offspring of David,” he was also “the root” of David (Revelation 22:12-16).

The good olive tree is a holy tree that represents a holy people. Gentiles have been spiritually joined to faithful Israel, “and with them partakest of the root and oiliness of the olive tree” – our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is why Romans 11:16 tells us: “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.” God’s people are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as a holy people. They are so because they have been changed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't dismiss Romans 11:11-16. Put Romans 11:1, and 11:7 together with Romans 11:11 and what do we get? Not only has God not cast away his people, he has not cast away their nation. The nation of Israel has not fallen, even though they rejected Jesus and put him on a cross. God has a further use for the nation, which is why the nation will appear again in our future.

God has no future plans with a "National Israel" as you claim, your Zionism is on full display

God has one people his "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Greek

Just shout out your belief, Ethnic Jews are going to rule this earth from Jerusalem in the fairy tale Zionist Millennial Kingdom, with renewed animal sacrifice in a temple?

 

[Truth7t7]

In that passage, does God remove ungodliness from the Gentiles or does he remove ungodliness from Jacob?

When God saves the "Remnant Jew" they become "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Greek, it appears you have a hard time seeing this through Zionist colored glasses :)

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There ya go, you have created two distinct groups within the Church, saved ethnic Jews and saved Gentiles, "Wrong" Paul writes below there isn't a distinction as you claim above

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When woman gets saved does she cease to be a woman? I don't think so. Paul isn't suggesting that all human categories cease to exist. His point is that there is no distinction between various groups with respect to the inheritance.

Now, I asked you to give your opinion concerning Paul's meaning in Romans 11:26. He is focused on a particular family line of which the prophets spoke, "I will remove ungodliness from Jacob." Here the context is the patriarch Jacob and all of his natural born descendants.

The passage you quoted is not concerned with Jacob's lineage; it speaks of Abraham's spiritual descendants. Don't confuse Jacob with Abraham.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Once again, the opposite is the truth. Jesus was not just “the offspring of David,” he was also “the root” of David (Revelation 22:12-16).

The good olive tree is a holy tree that represents a holy people. Gentiles have been spiritually joined to faithful Israel, “and with them partakest of the root and oiliness of the olive tree” – our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is why Romans 11:16 tells us: “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.” God’s people are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as a holy people. They are so because they have been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Okay, he he. While it is true, Revelation speaks about Jesus as being the root and offspring of David. In that context, the word "root" doesn't refer to the part of the plant that digs into the soil. Revelation 22 intends to convey the idea, found in the prophets, that the messiah would be the "shoot" of Jesse, Isaiah 11:1 which is a different part of the plant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God has no future plans with a "National Israel" as you claim, your Zionism is on full display

God has one people his "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Greek

Just shout out your belief, Ethnic Jews are going to rule this earth from Jerusalem in the fairy tale Zionist Millennial Kingdom, with renewed animal sacrifice in a temple?

We aren't talking about me at all. We are talking about Paul's explicit statement that Israel did NOT FALL. Do you disagree with Paul, or my interpretation? Then demonstrate why Paul doesn't mean what I say he means.

Just because God has one church, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, this in no way contradicts God's plan to bring Israel back to the land, materially bless them, protect them from their enemies, set up his throne there and rule the nations.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

We are talking about Paul's explicit statement that Israel did NOT FALL.

???:

Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

???

 

[WPM]

Okay, he he. While it is true, Revelation speaks about Jesus as being the root and offspring of David. In that context, the word "root" doesn't refer to the part of the plant that digs into the soil. Revelation 22 intends to convey the idea, found in the prophets, that the messiah would be the "shoot" of Jesse, Isaiah 11:1 which is a different part of the plant.

He is both the root and the offspring. This is talking about His Godhood and His manhood. He was before David as Lord and He was after him as his posterity.

On the same vein, Christ asked the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, “What think ye of Christ (or Messiah)? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.” He then quoted Psalm 110:1, saying, “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?” He asked them, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” The Pharisees were bewildered at Christ’s question. The reading states, “And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity) – a truth that evidently perplexed the religious Pharisees. The religious Pharisees had absolutely no grasp of that great truth. They had no comprehension that He was both before and after David. The answer to the enquiry was that He was before David (being the root of David) in His divine office as the eternal Son of God; therefore, David called Him Lord. Nevertheless, He was also his offspring in a natural sense, through the incarnation at Bethlehem, and was therefore a son of David by way of lineage.