22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

Do you believe Ezekiel 40-48 is historic or future in your millennium?

Do you believe Ezekiel was a false prophet?

 

[CadyandZoe]

But none of the passages that you presented in Deuteronomy mention a future millennium or even mention animal sacrifices. That is what is so ridiculous about your teaching. It is totally devoid of scriptural support. It is heresy to deny the finished work of Christ.

No kidding. I gave you scriptural support. If you don't understand Deuteronomy, that's your problem.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is that what you believe as well about that passage? Why would you care what others think about it when you are trying to prove your own case?

Wisdom dictates that one should not use disputed passages to make a case. If a certain group of people dismiss a particular passage, it is fruitless to use it in a debate.

Jesus knew this. For instance, the Sadducees believed that the first five books of the Bible alone were authoritative. Thus, when Jesus argued with the Sadducees, he cited passages from the first five books.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In fairness to myself, there are over 5,000 posts in this thread. I think it's understandable if I've missed a few. Anyway, the book of Deuteronomy has absolutely nothing to do with future animal sacrifices, so it's beyond me as to why you'd use scripture from that book to support your belief in future animal sacrifices.

Unless you want to argue that God didn't command animal sacrifices, which he did, and since Moses predicts that those in the Millennial kingdom will obey the commandments of God, the how do you say that there won't be animal sacrifices in the Millennial kingdom. It's a simple matter of logic. 2 + 2 = 4?

Do you believe that the scriptures you referenced in Deuteronomy refer to a future Millennium after the return of Christ?

What else can it be? Do you know of a time when God brought Israel back to the land, circumcised their hearts, blessed them materially, protected them from their enemies, gave Israel all the spoil taken from them? When did Israel ever obey God's commandments? Try to follow the course of the passage.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you were an umpire in a league that I was in charge of, you would be fired.

I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. If that offends you then I will refrain from saying things like that. I only said things like that to explain why I'm not understanding what you're saying sometimes.

That sounds good to me. I appreciate that. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I have a problem with it when someone doesn't even attempt to defend their claims and address challenges made to their claims.

It is what it is. Nothing to feel sorry about it.

You don't have to apologize as long as you're making the effort. If you're trying and I still can't figure out what you're saying, so be it. It happens.

Well, I did believe it at one time, but didn't really argue for it. But, I didn't study Revelation 20 much back then, either. I was more focused on defending the post-trib rapture view against pre-trib back then. But, of course, I would argue for Premil as hard as I do Amil if that's what I believed even after doing a lot of study.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe Ezekiel 40-48 is historic or future in your millennium?

Ezekiel chapters 40-46 is historical in the return of Israel from the Babylonian Captivity and building the 536BC Zerubbabel temple

Ezekiel chapters 47-48 is the future eternal kingdom in the NHNE

 

[CadyandZoe]

Can you explain what you meant by this? I don't see where he was speaking in the third person in his post. I see he referenced "your proof text". Is there something wrong with that wording? Or is your point that you don't use Ezekiel 45:15-17 to support your belief?

Really? He does this quite often.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just a pragmatic question: do you understand how we might consider your promotion of the restoration of the whole ceremonial sacrifice system as heretical?

Yes, I understand your position. Do you understand how my position might NOT be heretical? Those who genuinely listen to the other side, seeking to understand the other side, will eventually be able to argue the other side.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I understand your position. Do you understand how my position might NOT be heretical? Those who genuinely listen to the other side, seeking to understand the other side, will eventually be able to argue the other side.

If a man has compelling Scripture I can. But you have nothing on this subject that teaches "that the temple sacrifices (among other religious practices) mark the people of God as Holy People." This is where your argument crumbles. We have countless Scripture that has been dismissed or ignored that forbids the continuation of such a worthless system. So, for many of us, your fight is with the scriptural text.

 

[Truth7t7]

Moses predicts that those in the Millennial kingdom will obey the commandments of God, the how do you say that there won't be animal sacrifices in the Millennial kingdom. It's a simple matter of logic. 2 + 2 = 4?

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, let alone animal sacrifice renewed in it, false fairy tales of man

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[WPM]

Unless you want to argue that God didn't command animal sacrifices, which he did, and since Moses predicts that those in the Millennial kingdom will obey the commandments of God, the how do you say that there won't be animal sacrifices in the Millennial kingdom. It's a simple matter of logic. 2 + 2 = 4?

Where did "Moses predicts that those [animal sacrifices] in the Millennial kingdom will obey the commandments of God"? Where did he even mention a future millennium. Your arguments and claims are getting more absurd by the moment. You add 2 + 2 and get 22, not 4. That is Premil in a nutshell.

What else can it be? Do you know of a time when God brought Israel back to the land, circumcised their hearts, blessed them materially, protected them from their enemies, gave Israel all the spoil taken from them? When did Israel ever obey God's commandments? Try to follow the course of the passage.

What else can it be? Do you know of a time when God brought Israel back to the land, circumcised their hearts, blessed them materially, protected them from their enemies, gave Israel all the spoil taken from them? When did Israel ever obey God's commandments? Try to follow the course of the passage.

You totally missed the focus of these promises and predictions. They were pointing towards Christ's first advent and the peace He would bring to His people. The Scriptures are essentially God revealing Himself to mankind through the communication of spiritual knowledge. As we analyze the ancient Hebrew text, we see a notable and central theme mounting: that of the arrival of a Redeemer Messiah to rescue man from his sinful condition. This came in the form of direct prophecies, old covenant offices, ceremonial typology and a tapestry of unfolding preparation. In fact, Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the biblical covenants. Even though they did not have a full epiphany of Him, the old covenant prophets were preoccupied with the Messiah’s person, His appearance and His ministry. The Old Testament text gradually and assuredly steered history ahead to the fulfillment of every ancient promise. The momentum grows the closer we get to His first advent. There is a steady unfolding continuity of plan and purpose from the Old to the New Testament, concentrated on the promised Messiah. Christ is indeed God’s final, fullest and ultimate revelation of perfection and truth.

There is nothing greater emphasized in the New Testament than how Christ is heir to all the Old Testament promises and prophecies relating to the promised Messiah. Everything in the Old Testament Scriptures reach their fulfilment in Jesus. That is why the Apostle could say in 2 Corinthians 1:20, “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.”

 

[WPM]

No kidding. I gave you scriptural support. If you don't understand Deuteronomy, that's your problem.

You are so blinded by what you have been taught that you fail to see this simple truth. Sadly, you deny the Christ was the final or sufficient sacrifice for sin. Jesus is indeed the final sacrifice for sin. Hello! Do you get that? Or are you so married to the old covenant that you cannot let it go?

Romans 6:10 says, “he died unto sin once.”

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says, “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

There it is! Clear and irrefutable! This is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices forever!!! "Forever" actually means "forever."

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

Your counter evidence

Ok, show us any mention animal sacrifices or a millennium mentioned in your supposed proof-texts. Highlight the descriptions.

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deu 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

None of Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2, 28:9, 30:6-8 mention animal sacrifices. Consequently, none of these teach that ceremonial rituals make one holy. What is more, none of these describes a future millennium. You force that upon each text to support your error. This is called adding onto Scripture. It is not advisable. Scripture warns against it.

 

[WPM]

Do you believe Ezekiel was a false prophet?

I know your position has been strongly refuted here, but, please answer the question: is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium? Answering a question with a question is normally admission that you have nothing.

 

[Truth7t7]

I know your position has been demolished here, but, please answer the question: Ezekiel 40-48 is historic or future in your millennium? Answering a question with a question normally is the mission that you are cornered.

Many Claim Ezekiel Chapters 40-46, Represents A Future Temple In A Millennium On Earth, Is This True?

As clearly shown, Ezekiel Chapter 43 showed the temple "Pattern" to the House of Israel in the Babylonian Captivity let "Them" measure, Ezekiel was instructed to write the ordinances and law in "Their" sight, that "They" keep them, not some future generation as many "Falsely" claim

The temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity, where animal sacrifice for "Sin" was instructed by "God", prior to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary, don't be deceived

Ezekiel 43:10-11 & 19-21KJV
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

 

[Truth7t7]

I know your position has been demolished here, but, please answer the question: Ezekiel 40-48 is historic or future in your millennium? Answering a question with a question normally is the mission that you are cornered.

Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 Is The Eternal Kingdom, Dont Be Deceived

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe Ezekiel was a false prophet?

Do you believe Malachi and Nahum were false prophets?

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok please make your claim, support with scripture, waiting

Just read the verse. This isn't hard.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles refers to the times when the Gentiles (the armies who surround Jerusalem - verse 20) would kill many Jews and take others as prisoners (captive) to all nations and would continue on while Gentiles trample on Jerusalem.

In 70 AD the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then proceeded to destroy most of the city while killing many Jews and taking others captive to all nations. What happened then fits with what is described in Luke 21:20-24. I believe "the times of the Gentiles" has been ongoing since then up until today.

We should be celebrating this because it shows how Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen and it came true just as He prophesied. Instead, you apply this to some future time. Jesus described both past and future events in the Olivet Discourse. I don't know why so many people assume that it's either all in the past or all in the future.

 

[Truth7t7]

Just read the verse. This isn't hard.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles refers to the times when the Gentiles (the armies who surround Jerusalem - verse 20) would kill many Jews and take others as prisoners (captive) to all nations and would continue on while Gentiles trample on Jerusalem.

In 70 AD the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then proceeded to destroy most of the city while killing many Jews and taking others captive to all nations. What happened then fits with what is described in Luke 21:20-24. I believe "the times of the Gentiles" has been ongoing since then up until today.

We should be celebrating this because it shows how Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen and it came true just as He prophesied. Instead, you apply this to some future time. Jesus described both past and future events in the Olivet Discourse. I don't know why so many people assume that it's either all in the past or all in the future.

I Disagree, The Time Of The Gentiles is a future
event of armies surrounding Jerusalem, that will be a sign that precedes the Lord's second coming as seen in Luke 21:24-28 below

Has this been started in the reformed preterist 66-70AD Jerusalem, and been in the making 2,000 years and waiting "No". This is just reformed preterist eschatology falsely bridging the gap from 66-70AD Jerusalem, to the future second coming of Jesus Christ

The reformed teaching above is comparable to the Pre-Mill crowd's phony 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel and waiting, no different

Is a 2,000 year gap in time seen between verses 24-28 below "Absolutely Not" the generation that witnesses Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, will also witness the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ

Jesus Is The Lord

"Future Events Unfulfilled"

Luke 21:24-32KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[jeffweeder]

Just read the verse. This isn't hard.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles refers to the times when the Gentiles (the armies who surround Jerusalem - verse 20) would kill many Jews and take others as prisoners (captive) to all nations and would continue on while Gentiles trample on Jerusalem.

In 70 AD the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then proceeded to destroy most of the city while killing many Jews and taking others captive to all nations. What happened then fits with what is described in Luke 21:20-24. I believe "the times of the Gentiles" has been ongoing since then up until today.

We should be celebrating this because it shows how Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen and it came true just as He prophesied. Instead, you apply this to some future time. Jesus described both past and future events in the Olivet Discourse. I don't know why so many people assume that it's either all in the past or all in the future.

Extremism.
Jesus was clearly speaking of the events of AD70 when it came to armies surrounding Jerusalem , destroying the temple and taking survivors captive

 

[Truth7t7]

Extremism.
Jesus was clearly speaking of the events of AD70 when it came to armies surrounding Jerusalem , destroying the temple and taking survivors captive

I disagree as post #5178 above clearly explains, Luke 21:24-28 are future events unfulfilled

Extreismism would be found in those that support the false preterist reformed eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment of Luke 21:24-28

Jesus Is The Lord