Not at all. They get it from the scriptures. No need for man made councils as are required by the trinity.
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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In... your opinion. :) I mean that's cool; I truly respect your opinion.
Truly, truly, I say to you... :)... as I have you and several others before, the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible, but the triune nature and existence of God in Person(s) and purpose most assuredly is. And I'm perfectly okay with you calling that my opinion, but it is what it is. Again, my Lord and God is very clear in John 14 in particular (but throughout John's gospel, immediately speaking):
The Father sent ('sent' having far more meaning far more than merely being told to go somewhere) both the Son and the Holy Spirit, which incontrovertibly says that both the Son and the Spirit were always with ('with' meaning far more than merely in close proximity to) the Father. Also, the Father sent another Helper, which means a second Helper, which necessarily means there was a first, by which Jesus is incontrovertibly referring to Himself, and of course we know that the Father is the first Helper ~ among many other passages, in Psalm 46, David sings that "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble." So, the co-equality, co-substantiality, and co-eternalness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is incontrovertible. Scripture cannot be short-changed, so to speak, but that's unfortunately what happens so often in this forum.
Call it what you like; it is what it is.
Well, I would agree with that statement, of course, but that was never an actual quote of mine. I would also say that if you just picked that one sentence out of a larger quote ~ if you create a vacuum, which you probably did ~ the accusation of "avoiding explicit standards" is easy to level, but holds no water. I have been very specific, citing so many Scriptures that... well, frankly, I've lost count. Not that I was ever really keeping count, but still... And the silence with regard to alternative readings or understandings ~ except for mere denial, the one regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6 in this thread (and others) being a case in point ~ has been absolutely deafening.
Grace and peace to you.
Some think they do, sure. They lean on their own understanding, which God (through Solomon, son of David, king of Israel, in his Proverbs) exhorts us not to do and which is one variation among persons. :)
Hey! You might notice what I did there in that later sentence, and correlate it to what I said previously regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6. I bolded a couple of things ~ notice particularly the 'and' (correlative conjunction) ~ for you to assist... :)
Sorry, I don't mean to pat myself on the back for my sentence building and diagramming prowess... :)... but I do admittedly take some pleasure in that... :)... for which I repent in dust and ashes... :)
God uses many things in His perfect Counsel, even the counsel of man. The whole Counsel of God ~ the Bible ~ is a testament to that fact, from the books of Moses (the Pentateuch) to John's Revelation. And teaching, as you should know, is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12), and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11).
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
[QUOTE="PinSeeker, post: 1442011, member: 13316"] Again, my Lord and God is very clear in John 14 in particular (but throughout John's gospel, immediately speaking)
[/QUOTE]
John 17 is Jesus praying to God. So you really mean to say that one person talking to another person means they are one and the same entity? That one person asking another person to send something means all three are the same entity?
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John 17 is Jesus praying to God. So you really mean to say that one person talking to another person means they are one and the same entity? That one person asking another person to send something means all three are the same entity?
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You and I are Christians. Notice I used the word and in bold. That proves we are actually the same person?
A pat on the back for cutting and pasting some diagram? I wouldn't break out the champagne too soon if I were you. :)
I wonder why the Bible would say it contains all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3) if God had to use councils replete with Plato loving men to define the doctrine.
Rest assured that we return, in full ~ but with all due respect ~ that same statement to you and your like-minded cohorts here, Aunty Jane.
Trinitarians would wholeheartedly agree with this particular statement; I know I do... But here, actually, you're even contradicting your own understanding of our understanding of the triune Godhead. Surely you understand that: If we say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal, we are not, even by what should be your own admission, putting any member of the triune Jehovah before any other.
Not at all. See immediately above. You're statement here is a horrible caricature and misstatement of the trinitarian position.
Sure, and as a man having fully humbled Himself and laid aside for a time His position with the Father, was our perfect model in glorifying God.
In your opinion. Again, returned in full. Although I would disagree on the "every point" thing; there are things we would agree on... :)
Regarding the nature of God. Right. But if the Spirit changes your heart, be sure and let us know, and we will rejoice with you. :)
He... already has... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Um, I think you mean John 17. In John 14, Jesus is conversing with His disciples.
Anyway... No, Rich, three distinct Persons ~ so Jesus can certainly converse with and pray to the Father ~ but one in substance. So He can (and does in John 17:5) claim for Himself the glory that He possessed ~ and call upon the Father to glorify Him ~ with the full glory of of God, from eternity past and throughout the age to come. As Jesus says, He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. The Holy Spirit shares intimately in that oneness.
Well now you are parsing words, Rich, as if in a vacuum, which is very much along the lines of what I said to Wrangler regarding what he did shortly ago. It's a very common thread among you.
I gave an example of what a true diagram of 1 Corinthians 8:6 would look like in some fashion, which I was very clear in saying, Rich. So now you're changing what I did and said into something that it explicitly was not, and therefore terribly dishonest. Which, again, is a common thread in all these discussions, not only with you but with your like-minded cohorts here.
Your mind is your own, and as such, I cannot be concerned with your "wonderings." :)
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
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Wrangler
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Wrangler
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Pinseeker is so funny! He just makes things up as he goes AND fully believes it.
I Love too how he uses fancy words AS IF that solidifies his abuse of language usage is valid.
Your spirit of delusion, preaching that Jesus is not YHWH God, is exposed by your lies that you post. The apostles most certainly did call Jesus God.
Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.
Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.
Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).
When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.
When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).
We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.
We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.
People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.
Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.
Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34).
The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).
Your spirit of delusion, preaching your linguistic foolishness of destroying the Greek grammar of Titus 2:13, is exposed by your lies that you post.
Titus 2:13 truthfully exegeted with Greek grammar rules applied maintains consistent Apostolic testimony.
Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of Titus 2:13:
awaiting-προσδεχόμενοι the-τὴν blessed-μακαρίαν hope-ἐλπίδα and-καὶ appearing-ἐπιφάνειαν the-τῆς glory-δόξης the-τοῦ great-μεγάλου God-Θεοῦ and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος us-ἡμῶν Christ-Χριστοῦ Jesus-Ἰησοῦ
All of "God", "Savior", "Christ", and "Jesus" are genitive, singular, and masculine thus they are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit has the genitive singular adjectives "glory" and "great" pointing at this unit for all the genitive singular words are inextricably tied together according to Greek grammar rules.
The logical "and" in the phrase "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word "hope", which is singular, as well as the word "glory", which is singular, in the phrase "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of" (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" as One singular.
See that linguistically, "hope" and "glory" would need to be plural in order for "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.
THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR OF US, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).
The Greek grammar rules make it utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself unto eternal punishment according to your current state. You confuse Paul's words while you neglect the greater Apostolic testimony.
The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).
So God has gone from a personal entity to a thing, an essence?
Funny that you should bring up twisting other people's words. But, judging from your posts, I guess you're a pro at it so you would notice.
Not required. I just wonder about things like most people. You?
But to us there is but one President, Joe Biden, who is the leader and one Vice President, Kamala Harris, who is second in command.
Know anybody who thinks Joe and Kamala are one "essence?"
I do credit myself, humbly, with having a pretty good sense of humor, yes. :)
Again, far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion, even concerning me. It bothers me not; so many Scriptures I have quoted verbatim, so I can't be accused of making things up with any modicum of validity whatsoever. But yes, what I say I certainly believe... :)
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot. :) Regardless, it is what it is; things are what they are (and are not what they are not).
Grace and peace to you, Wrangling. Oh! Sorry! I mean... Wrangler... :)
No... :) You're wrangling, too, Rich. At one time, I would have been surprised at that, but no more...So God has gone from a personal entity to a thing, an essence?
Well, I can see how that might a be hurtful implication when applied to you. It is certainly not my intention to be hurtful, to you or anyone else. Having said that, I... don't think I can say the same from at least some among you and your cohorts here, but, everyone is who he/she is. But, I give you credit for not denying your twisting. :)
Yeah, I've been questioning your judgment for quite some time now, and here again... :)
Sure. But some things are blatantly evident, and no wondering is necessary. But I think we're talking past each other here...
You may think (or think you know) that I'm mistaken about some things, Rich, but I twist no person's (or Person's) words (Word). Well, except to "twist back," so to speak, to what they truly are, in response to their having been twisted into something they are not.
I mean, now we're talking about earthly things and comparing/applying them to the supernatural, which is quite the problem, as I said. But Joe and Kamala do, together, make up the one Executive Branch of our representative republic, no? :)
Well, they do aim to be unified in purpose... :) A couple of Scriptural things come to mind, though:
Over all of the following, nothing in this fallen world is perfect yet, but will be, when everything is made new. But...
- No need to go into detail about marriage, because I did that before to some extent in a previous post, but in the marriage of two Christians, a covenant entered into by the married couple with God, the two have become one flesh. God has made them one, though they are yet two persons (Genesis 2, Ephesians 5). Even Jesus says this, saying, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’... (s)o they are no longer two but one flesh" (Mark 10:7). It true that I am not my wife, and my wife is not me in person. But we are one flesh. So, again, not perfectly yet in this fallen world, but spiritually ~ because God is Spirit ~ it is so.
- Notice what John says here, in speaking of unbelievers, who once were with us but have gone from us: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19). We are all distinct persons, for sure, but if we are Christians, we are all of each other. Though not yet made perfectly true, we are in some sense of the same essence. We are the bride of Christ. Again, not perfectly yet in this fallen world, but spiritually ~ because God is Spirit ~ it is so. And this will be a full, perfect reality in the new heaven and new earth, when God finally makes all things new.
:)
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
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Wrangler
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This has to rank as THE biggest, boldest, bald faced lie trinitarians tell.
- Jesus died. God is eternal.
- Jesus is a man. God is not a man. Hosea 11:9
- Jesus is flesh. God is Spirit.
- Jesus submitted to God. God did not submit to Jesus' will.
- God is the Creator. Jesus, being a son, is a created Being.
- Jesus was sent by God. God was not sent by Jesus.
- Jesus was told what to say AND how to say it by God. God was NOT told what to say by Jesus.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Sure you can! This is because none of the Scripture you quoted say anything like the trinity doctrine, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, you would not need to resort to artificial synthesis by invoking all these others and demanding they be interprettted the trinitarian way.
Behold
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God saves by the foolishness of preaching those who believe in the truth that a dead Jew hanging on a Roman Cross is God's ""gift of righteousness."" and "gift of "Salvation"
If God can do that, and He did, and its true, then truly all things are possible for the One who spoke creation into existence from blank nothingness.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Rich already listed about 5 things God cannot do according to Scripture. So, you again accept contradictions or must accept your literal interpretation is incorrect.
As in being "one" ala John 10:30? What a novel concept! :)
BTW, I do think you have a healthy sense of humor. A good thing to have in my book.
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