John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Wrangler]

No, it's quite explicit.

Oh, thanks for setting me straight. Please cite that verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

 

[Wrangler]

But not believing Jesus is Who He claims to be is certainly a disqualifier.

He claimed to be the Son of God 3 times:

• Women at the well
• Peter's Confession
• To Caiphais that got him executed.

Not once did he claim to be God incarnate.

 

[Wrangler]

Trinitarians don't reject the unitarian-ness of God

LOL Except for when they do reject God only exists in a unitarian nature.

 

[Wrangler]

the one-ness of God and the three-ness of God ~ are irrefutable.

LOL. Since the trinity is not in the Bible - the word or the concept, it is very much refutable.

Please state a stronger anti-trinitarian statement than 'For us, there is one God, the Father?'

 

[APAK]

I ate an apple and a peach. Was "it" red or yellow? I know. It makes no sense. There is no answer to such a nonsensical idea.

You first assume that Jesus is God and then squeeze that idea into the verse so as to fit that assumption. How about their being one God i.e., Yahweh and one Lord i.e., Jesus? Two different people, one the true God and the other Lord. That's the simple, unvarnished meaning of 1 Cor 8:6.

Acts 2:36,

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.​

Here we see Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God. Clearly one person made another person something. And I might point out there is no indication whatsoever that they share in the same essence or whatever, not in this verse nor in any verse in the Bible. For any hint of an "essence" we must appeal to Plato loving philosophers disguised as Christians.

Peter's entire speech in Acts 2 is about what God did for Jesus. Why would God have to make Jesus anything at all if he was God? The entire speech would make no sense if God and Jesus were the same entity.

Rich is there something I'm missing here? Was this post directed to me? A little confused here.

 

[APAK]

how are we brought to life?

Well we are considered alive in the Spirit when the Spirit of God is joined with our own spirit. And this occurs at conversion or rebirth of our spirit upon acceptance as the Father's choice. The Father gives his grace as he sees our contrite and genuine heart as being sincere as we repent of sin for our desire to 'live' and not to spiritually die. It is also our belief in the gospel and in the Messiah the Son of God, his shed blood on the Cross and his resurrection by the Father to the 'new' life.

Now the final permanent conversion to (eternal) life in a supernatural body is performed after our physical death or on the return of our lord and savior. Yahshua the Son of God himself has the authority to bring this new life today to us.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.
Joh 6:65 And he said: For this cause have I said to you, that no one can came to me, except it be given to him of the Father. (NEV)

As John Gill said:

...it is the Spirit of God that quickens dead sinners, by entering into them as the spirit of life, and causing them to live: and it is spiritual eating, or eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ in a spiritual sense, which quickens, refreshes, and comforts the minds of believers; it is that by, and on which they live, and by which their spiritual strength is renewed ....

(Joh 5:21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he will.

 

[The Learner]

start at Jun 27, 2022#1

start at Jun 27, 2022#1

 

[theefaith]

Phil 2;10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

unless Jesus is divine God this would be a violation of the 1st commandment ex 20:2-6

Ex 20 2-6
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Question: who is the Lord of Glory?

 

[theefaith]

Phil 2;10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

unless Jesus is divine God this would be a violation of the 1st commandment ex 20:2-6

Ex 20 2-6
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Question: who is the Lord of Glory?

 

[theefaith]

It depends. Winner AND still champion = one person. Mister AND Misses = 2 people.

Point is, trinitarians claim their doctrine is implied. However, a true implication is a necessary consequence, not merely a possible interpretation.

I cannot tell you how big of a deal this logical extrapolation is to their false doctrine. And I just realized this year that we’ve been giving their ‘implications’ far too much credit.

Once you realize they are reading their doctrine into the unitarian text, relying on only possible interpretation, it really is a non-starter. In other words, they MUST start with their doctrine. No one would read Scripture in a vacuum and walk away concluding God is a tri-une being where your salvation depends on believing it.

no we get doctrine or truth from God in person!
For three years the holy church of the apostles was taught by God on the flesh in person and that truth is forever bound on earth bound in heaven Matt 16:18-19
Matt 18:18

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

Truth and the church are divine!
They come from God and cannot be in error or imperfect so they cannot change or be reformed by man to say they can is blasphemy and treason against God who revealed them!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!

 

[APAK]

Phil 2;10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

unless Jesus is divine God this would be a violation of the 1st commandment ex 20:2-6

Question: who is the Lord of Glory?

Did you happen to read and include the verses before Phil 2:10 and after it. When you do and understand it all you must erase what you wrote about Jesus being God.

(Php 2:8) And being perceived as a normal man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As you can clearly read Jesus cannot possibly be God.

(1Co 2:7) But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even that which was hidden, which God foreordained before the ages for our glory,
(1Co 2:8) which not one of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (NEV)

God and his wisdom kept hidden for our glory and the glory of his Son, called the lord of glory.

(Eph 1:17) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him; so that you may have
(Eph 1:18) the eyes of your mind enlightened, that you may appreciate what is the hope of His calling, what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

And the Father of glory is the one true God who gave his Son glory, called the lord of glory.

 

[theefaith]

Well we are considered alive in the Spirit when the Spirit of God is joined with our own spirit. And this occurs at conversion or rebirth of our spirit upon acceptance as the Father's choice. The Father gives his grace as he sees our contrite and genuine heart as being sincere as we repent of sin for our desire to 'live' and not to spiritually die. It is also our belief in the gospel and in the Messiah the Son of God, his shed blood on the Cross and his resurrection by the Father to the 'new' life.

Now the final permanent conversion to (eternal) life in a supernatural body is performed after our physical death or on the return of our lord and savior. Yahshua the Son of God himself has the authority to bring this new life today to us.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.
Joh 6:65 And he said: For this cause have I said to you, that no one can came to me, except it be given to him of the Father. (NEV)

As John Gill said:

...it is the Spirit of God that quickens dead sinners, by entering into them as the spirit of life, and causing them to live: and it is spiritual eating, or eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ in a spiritual sense, which quickens, refreshes, and comforts the minds of believers; it is that by, and on which they live, and by which their spiritual strength is renewed ....

(Joh 5:21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he will.

jn 3:5 what’s the water for?

 

[theefaith]

Are you a mono-theist?
One God!

who then is the Holy Spirit!
Not God and not the father?
Not man?
Who or what is he?

 

[theefaith]

Well we are considered alive in the Spirit when the Spirit of God is joined with our own spirit. And this occurs at conversion or rebirth of our spirit upon acceptance as the Father's choice. The Father gives his grace as he sees our contrite and genuine heart as being sincere as we repent of sin for our desire to 'live' and not to spiritually die. It is also our belief in the gospel and in the Messiah the Son of God, his shed blood on the Cross and his resurrection by the Father to the 'new' life.

Now the final permanent conversion to (eternal) life in a supernatural body is performed after our physical death or on the return of our lord and savior. Yahshua the Son of God himself has the authority to bring this new life today to us.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.
Joh 6:65 And he said: For this cause have I said to you, that no one can came to me, except it be given to him of the Father. (NEV)

As John Gill said:

...it is the Spirit of God that quickens dead sinners, by entering into them as the spirit of life, and causing them to live: and it is spiritual eating, or eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ in a spiritual sense, which quickens, refreshes, and comforts the minds of believers; it is that by, and on which they live, and by which their spiritual strength is renewed ....

(Joh 5:21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he will.

then all are saved?

 

[Wrangler]

Did you happen to read and include the verses before Phil 2:10 and after it. When you do and understand it all you must erase what you wrote about Jesus being God.

I also look forward to his erudite response.

 

[APAK]

jn 3:5 what’s the water for?

Physical water or H20 has zero to do with the infusion of the Spirit of God within a person. I don't think there is a spiritual H20 injection for rebirth or regeneration...

 

[theefaith]

Physical water or H20 has zero to do with the infusion of the Spirit of God within a person. I don't think there is a spiritual H20 injection for rebirth or regeneration...

but that is a requirement of initiation into the new covenant
It ain’t a Bible study but a covenant


Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist baptist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

 

[APAK]

then all are saved?

I'm afraid not. Not all are saved in the sense that all will be in the Kingdom of the everlasting Spirit of the Father and the Son. There are people who have deliberately dedicated their lives to opposing the Spirit of God and those that possess it. How well would these types fit into the Kingdom of God?

 

[APAK]

but that is a requirement of initiation into the new covenant
It ain’t a Bible study but a covenant


Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist baptist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

Yes theefaith, we are all born of water into this life right? Jesus is saying to that person for a human being they must not only be born of water (being a carnal un-regenerated human being), also of the Spirit.

(Joh 3:4) Nicodemus said to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered: Truly, truly, I say to you: Except one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7) Do not marvel at what I said to you: You must be born anew. (NEV)

Water birth is of the flesh. Spirit is (re)birth of the spirit.

Remember that Nicodemus was asking and thinking about the physical reentry of his mother's womb to be reborn (verse 4). Jesus is answering him in his type of thinking, of human birth of being encased in water at birth.

 

[Rich R]

Rich is there something I'm missing here? Was this post directed to me? A little confused here.

That makes two of us. Probably my fault, but not sure how. In any case, the only thing missing are some of my marbles! :)