22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

Right, it doesn't exist today.
But the day will come when the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, the Temple will be rebuilt and there will again be a Levitical Priesthood. Isaiah 66:20-21 The Lord will select them from among His faithful Christian peoples.

The Eternal state follows after the Millennium.
There cannot be mortals as well as immortals in the Millennium.

We differ on that point. I believe that mortal survivors from other nations will be alive during the Millennial period. And I believe that the 144K will also be mortal. They will live as sanctified believers, living in Jerusalem, and serving Jesus Christ.

 

[covenantee]

Tell that to the government of Israel.

The Law of Return that was passed by the Israeli parliament in 1950 gives all diaspora Jews, as well as their children and grandchildren, the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship on the basis of connecting to their Jewish identity.​

You missed the point.

But see post 4786.

 

[WPM]

Projection: I told you I never said that the Levitical Priesthood existed today. And I stand by what I said. You seem to take this tack away from the issue whenever you are at a loss for a rational statement.

This is on a grievous par with your distain for biblical corroboration. Jesus is the final sacrifice for sin. Hello! Do you get that? Or are you so married to the old covenant that you cannot let it go?

Romans 6:10 says, “he died unto sin once.”

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says, “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

There it is! Clear and irrefutable! This is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices forever!!! "Forever" actually means "forever."

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

 

[Keraz]

Tell that to the government of Israel.

The Law of Return that was passed by the Israeli parliament in 1950 gives all diaspora Jews, as well as their children and grandchildren, the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship on the basis of connecting to their Jewish identity.​

The joke is that no one has any proper documented proof of their Jewish ancestry. There are Ethiopians, Nigerians and people from obscure tribes in India, all busy practising Jewish rites, for the purpose of getting out of their basket case countries. To the prosperous State of Israel, where they cause all kinds of problems.
Even the Jews who do have family documents, cannot prove descent from Judah. There were many people who converted to Judaism and joined, becoming Jews.
Bible Prophecy is clear; the nations now present in the holy Land, all face the Lord's Judgment and punishment. Zechariah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 29:1-4, +
THEN the Lord's faithful peoples will go to live there, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Legitimate question. All I can say is that the distinction I see is between *living in* that time frame and *inheriting* the Kingdom within that time frame.

The difference is on the verbs, living in and inheriting. They mean different things. We don't have much about "living in" the Millennial Period. Often, unless a change is made, it must be assumed there is continuity. For example, unless it is said that all of mankind is exterminated we would assume that mankind continues, even if severely reduced in numbers.

Where is this concept of differentiating between living in and inheriting the kingdom of God taught in scripture?

But "inheriting" has a very specific context in 1 Cor 15. It exceeds just *living in* the Millennial Era, and refers specifically to those who are resurrected and glorified.

1 Cor 15.50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

So yes, I'm making some assumptions here, namely that mortals continue to live in the Millennial Era, and that the Kingdom that comes at that time is being "inherited" solely by immortals, whereas the mortal population of earth merely lives in that time period and benefits from its influence. It's something you have to look into for yourself and decide for yourself. But your question is at the heart of the issue for me. Thanks.

I, of course, don't really need to look into this for myself as I have already given it plenty of thought and study over the years. To me, Paul was making it clear that the only ones who will experience the kingdom of God at Christ's return in any way, shape or form are those whose bodies will be changed to be immortal when Christ returns at the seventh trumpet. I believe he said what he did in 1 Cor 15:50 to show that no one else will get to "live in", inherit or experience the kingdom of God at that time except for believers whose bodies are changed to be immortal. Everyone else will be cast "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) at that time.

This is exactly what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus talked about what will happen when He returns with His angels. All people will be separated into two groups which He figuratively referred to as sheep and goats. The sheep represent believers and they will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world" (Matt 25:34,46). Meanwhile the goats, representing unbelievers, will inherit "eternal punishment" in "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that time (Matt 25:41,46).

There is just nothing at all about a temporary earthly kingdom following Christ's return in Paul's writings or in any of the words of Jesus recorded in the gospels.

 

[WPM]

You are in error. You can not find anywhere in what I have written, and I have written a lot of posts, where I defend the Old Covenant. No where have I ever expressed a hope in a brick temple. No where have I ever dismissed the essential doctrine of trust in Christ. You are reading me through the lenses of your paradigm, not listening at all to what I have said, apparently.

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You reject that. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin in some imaginary future millennium. You make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

You fail to see: Calvary completely finished the Old Testament shadow and type. That is why there is no more sacrifice for sin. I find your belief extraordinary. Honestly! This belief should not be allowed on an evangelical site. It is a direct assault upon the cross. It undermines the finished work of Christ. It abrogates the new covenant.

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

You reject that. You say there remains many more offerings for sin in some imaginary future age. You again make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

It is both alarming and sad how many (that sincerely profess Christ) champion the re-starting of rival sin offerings in the future to compete with Calvary when Christ fulfilled and eternally removed them at the cross. Most of this error has emanated from false teaching of men that should know better. The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

John 1:29 records: “John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Hebrews 9:26: "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

1 John 1:7: "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

This is an ongoing effectual covenant that enables man to be forgiven.

Revelation 1:5 tells us that Christ “washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

The Levitical sacrifices could not put away sin. They continued for thousands of years involving innumerable sacrifices, but they did not remove one single sin. But the cross of Christ put away all the sin of God’s redeemed.

Hebrews 8:12 also says about repentant sinners: “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

 

[Keraz]

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 proves you wrong.
Note: in verse 20, that the sacrifices are for those who err, make a mistake and for the simple people. Some, not all the sacrifices and offerings.

Your forcefully stated comments, are a direct contradiction to many Prophesies of what will happen in the end times. I suggest that you cease your opinions and carefully study all the scriptures, that do tell us, in great detail; of what God has planned for our future.

All of your scripture quotes above, #4806, are for those people now, who do accept Christ's sacrifice. THEY are forgiven and redeemed.
Other people and in the future Millennium, will need to make offerings as Zechariah 14:16-21 makes abundantly clear.

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 45:13-25 proves you wrong.
Note: in verse 20, that the sacrifices are for those who err, make a mistake and for the simple people. Some, not all the sacrifices and offerings.

Your forcefully stated comments, are a direct contradiction to many Prophesies of what will happen in the end times. I suggest that you cease your opinions and carefully study all the scriptures, that do tell us, in great detail; of what God has planned for our future.

To claim this, you present a long-fulfilled-prophesy and totally duck around all the NT Scripture that forbids your error. The cross might not be final enough or satisfactory enough for you or for your sin but the rest of us accept it, embrace it and rely upon it for our salvation. I renounce your error and refer you back to numerous avoided posts above that expose your false teaching.

You should honestly read your proof-texts before coming out with statements like this. You promote the full restoration of the old covenant sacrifices:

· The “meat offering” – Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20.
· The “sin offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20.
· The “trespass offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20.
· The “burnt offerings” – Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15.
· The “peace offerings” – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12.
· The “drink offerings” – Ezekiel 45:17.

What does the cross lack that necessitates the reintroduction of multiple "sin offerings" and "trespass offerings"? Is Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection not enough for you? Was it not perfect enough, not satisfactory enough, and not final enough?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1 Cor 15-50-56, Paul is prophesying about the time of Eternity, that comes AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:1-7

I have told you several times before that I believe 1 Cor 15:50-56 occurs AFTER the thousand years, so why are you saying this to me as if I believed otherwise?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, it doesn't exist today.
But the day will come when the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, the Temple will be rebuilt and there will again be a Levitical Priesthood. Isaiah 66:20-21 The Lord will select them from among His faithful Christian peoples.

This is complete nonsense and is a huge insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Jesus made long ago. This shows a lack of understanding of what Jesus accomplished.

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This very clearly indicates how God feels about animal sacrifices and offerings when it says "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them". With this in mind why would God ever reinstate animal sacrifices and offerings? Especially considering that Jesus already "by one sacrifice...has made perfect forever those who are being made holy"?

The Eternal state follows after the Millennium.
There cannot be mortals as well as immortals in the Millennium.

You don't believe there will be mortals on earth during the thousand years? What do you make of Revelation 20:9 then? Where will the ones who number "as the sand of the sea" that are killed by fire coming down from heaven come from?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 45:13-25 proves you wrong.
Note: in verse 20, that the sacrifices are for those who err, make a mistake and for the simple people. Some, not all the sacrifices and offerings.

Did you just skip over verses 15-17?

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

How in the world can you think that animal sacrifices and offerings "to make atonement for the people" could occur in the future? Will Christ's sacrifice for the atonement of sins somehow no longer be sufficient at that point?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Randy,
I think you are on the right track.
Take note of the parallelism found in 1 Corinthians 15:50

flesh and blood --> perishable
kingdom of God --> imperishable.

That is to say, the meaning of the parallelism relies on both statements working together to communicate a single thought. While it is true that the kingdom of God is eternal, it can and does exist in a temporal time and space at the moment. But only those who have been transformed from perishable to imperishable can inherit the eternal aspect of the kingdom.

See what I mean?

Where is this taught in scripture, though? Looks like you're just trying to make something up to keep your doctrine afloat instead of getting your view from scripture.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

Christ has not yet put an end to sin. This does not happen until the next age.

 

[Keraz]

You should honestly read your proof-texts before coming out with statements like this. You promote the full restoration of the old covenant sacrifices:

· The “meat offering” – Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20.
· The “sin offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20.
· The “trespass offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20.
· The “burnt offerings” – Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15.
· The “peace offerings” – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12.
· The “drink offerings” – Ezekiel 45:17.

I try to not clutter up my posts with too many scriptures.
So yes: all what Ezekiel Prophesied awaits fulfilment. It was what God required from the ancient Israelites and is indisputably what He will require of His faithful Christian peoples in the future.
Do not demand of me to explain the Mind of God, I just show from the Word the sequence of what must happen for God to finally achieve His goal of having a people in all of His holy Land, who will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

 

[WPM]

Christ has not yet put an end to sin. This does not happen until the next age.

The penalty for sin has been paid in full! There are no more sacrifices for sin. The Scriptures are your greatest enemy here. No wonder you abhor corroboration.

Anyway, your "next age" is saturated with sin and sinners.

 

[WPM]

I try to not clutter up my posts with too many scriptures.
So yes: all what Ezekiel Prophesied awaits fulfilment. It was what God required from the ancient Israelites and is indisputably what He will require of His faithful Christian peoples in the future.
Do not demand of me to explain the Mind of God, I just show from the Word the sequence of what must happen for God to finally achieve His goal of having a people in all of His holy Land, who will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

No. You constantly misrepresent and twist "the mind of God" because of your rejection of the New Testament teaching on the cross and your obsession with the reintroduction of the abolished old covenant blood sacrifices. Amillennialists strongly oppose that. We believe Christ is our final sacrifice for sin. You can put your trust in animal sacrifices, but that is absolute foolishness.

How will animal sacrifices atone for Israel's sin in your so-called future millennium? In what way?

 

[Truther]

But you don't thank Them for the Wycliffe, Tyndale, Geneva, et al versions.

Got it wrong.

I do too.

They all led to our grand finale..the KJV.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You reject that. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin in some imaginary future millennium. You make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

I don't reject Hebrews 10:18. I agree with Paul: where there is forgiveness there is no more offering. I also agree with David, who said, "For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." In that same Psalm he also said, "By Your favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem. Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar." The man who said that God did not delight in burnt offerings also anticipated a time when righteous sacrifices would be made in Zion." Yes, where there is forgiveness there is no more offering for sin. But where there is righteous sentiment, David and other righteous people will want to make a burnt offering anyway. There are times when God doesn't want a burnt offering and there are times when God delights in them. Psalm 51

You fail to see: Calvary completely finished the Old Testament shadow and type. That is why there is no more sacrifice for sin. I find your belief extraordinary. Honestly! This belief should not be allowed on an evangelical site. It is a direct assault upon the cross. It undermines the finished work of Christ. It abrogates the new covenant.

Again, you mistakenly conflate the Old Covenant with the Law of Moses. While the Law of Moses is a major feature of the Old Covenant, it will also be a major feature of Jeremiah 31:34.

The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

No one is advocating for the resurrection of the Old Covenant.

The Levitical sacrifices could not put away sin. They continued for thousands of years involving innumerable sacrifices, but they did not remove one single sin. But the cross of Christ put away all the sin of God’s redeemed.

Of course. Why do you continue to build the strawman? I already told you. In the Millennial period, the Levites will offer sacrifices because offering sacrifices marks them as his holy people.

Granted, the Levitical sacrifices could not put away sin. And YET, God instituted them anyway. Your view can not account for this. Did God make a mistake? Or could it be that you don't understand the actual, intended meaning of them? I don't think you do.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is this taught in scripture, though? Looks like you're just trying to make something up to keep your doctrine afloat instead of getting your view from scripture.

Honestly, I think you are making stuff up about me so that YOU can maintain your doctrine. Where is it taught in scripture? 1 Corinthians 15:50, where else. Come-on work with me here.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The penalty for sin has been paid in full! There are no more sacrifices for sin. The Scriptures are your greatest enemy here. No wonder you abhor corroboration.

Anyway, your "next age" is saturated with sin and sinners.

So what?