22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[David Boyer]

Hello! Revelation is more figurative than amy other book. I rest my case!

Not figurative unless you are calling the words of John, Jesus, and the Angels of God lies.
Figurative when said it is figurative. Literal when said to be literal otherwise John lied when he wrote

 

[David Boyer]

Stop avoiding the obvious. Where is earth mentioned here?

Verse 1... the perspective of this chapter is from Earth. Simple reading.

 

[covenantee]

I have read news for many decades. War is hell. It's bad all over. Really. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc etc etc.

Your opinions are worthless without hard evidence.

Link/paste your source, or forget it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here is the post you cite

"The Great Tribulation is a certain time and event. There are no others. Your attempts at belittling the truth ..... are exposed."

I fixed it. How is that?

dad post #4103 removed (to support your darkness)

dad Post #4103 before revision
The Great Tribulation is a certain time and event. There are no others. Your attempts at belittling the truth to support your darkness are exposed.

 

[covenantee]

I have read news for many decades. War is hell. It's bad all over. Really. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc etc etc.

Jesus had said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
During the tribulation, the Jewish Zealots tormented and slaughtered fellow Jewish countrymen by the thousands. This had never happened before, and has never happened since.

"Now after these were slain, the zealots and the multitude of the Idumeans fell upon the people as upon a flock of profane animals, and cut their throats; and for the ordinary sort, they were destroyed in what place soever they caught them. But for the noblemen and the youth, they first caught them and bound them, and shut them up in prison, and put off their slaughter, in hopes that some of them would turn over to their party; but not one of them would comply with their desires, but all of them preferred death before being enrolled among such wicked wretches as acted against their own country. But this refusal of theirs brought upon them terrible torments; for they were so scourged and tortured, that their bodies were not able to sustain their torments, till at length, and with difficulty, they had the favor to be slain. Those whom they caught in the day time were slain in the night, and then their bodies were carried out and thrown away, that there might be room for other prisoners; and the terror that was upon the people was so great, that no one had courage enough either to weep openly for the dead man that was related to him, or to bury him; but those that were shut up in their own houses could only shed tears in secret, and durst not even groan without great caution, lest any of their enemies should hear them; for if they did, those that mourned for others soon underwent the same death with those whom they mourned for. Only in the night time they would take up a little dust, and throw it upon their bodies; and even some that were the most ready to expose themselves to danger would do it in the day time: and there were twelve thousand of the better sort who perished in this manner." Wars of the Jews IV, 5.3

 

[Truth7t7]

I misspoke. It is the second coming. That has always been my view. I edited my last post.

You now state "The Consummation" is at the second coming and I agree as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 below

Question: How do you account for your claim of "he" in Daniel 9:27 being "Jesus Christ" when this "he" is making abomination and desolation to the consummation or ultimate end, Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation?

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(The Future Consummation, The Ultimate End)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[covenantee]

Your claims are false, bringing untrue slander and defamation upon myself

I have asked "Several Times" for you to stop accusing myself and others of being "Heretics" regarding differences in opinion

You can ask as many times as you want. As long as anyone continues to claim that Christ = antichrist, I will continue to declare that blasphemy.

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 also
"... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

As WPM stated above, where is earth mentioned?

"Nowhere"!

Yes your claims are, speculation, assumption, and imagination

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[jeffweeder]

Simple answer to all of the above... None of those appear to be in Revelation(nope I didn't read more than a line or two of your manifesto).
Where in Revelation is the 1000 years expressly defined as figurative?

Rev 20 applies to those who do not come under judgement. Jesus had previously taught this to the Apostle John. It was a concept already enjoyed for those who believed and had passed from death to life in the here and now. Clearly then it is a figurative concept in Rev 20 ...unless Jesus changed his mind.

Jn 5
24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.

25 Believe Me when I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the time is coming and is here now when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear it shall live.

 

[Timtofly]

Here we go again! Please stop avoiding my questions. Avoidance seems to be a popular Premil trait on these forums.

It is you that is decapitating the 70 weeks.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Can you show another Scripture that corroborates this 490 year period other than Daniel 9, that you claim is different than the words we do read in the text? Gabriel did not call it a congruent 70 weeks. Gabriel split it up into 7 weeks and 62 weeks. Your point is with Gabriel not those who say it says 7 weeks and 62 weeks. Who uses the phrase 7 and 62 instead of 69? Your point would stand if it only mentioned 69 weeks, but it does not. It notes the time as 7 and 62.

Daniel 9 is the OT equivalent of Revelation 20 that people tend to argue over "made up facts" and private opinions.

 

[David Boyer]

As WPM stated above, where is earth mentioned?

"Nowhere"!

Yes your claims are, speculation, assumption, and imagination

Jesus Is The Lord

And as I said... Rev 20:1
Perspective of the chapter is from the Earth, not Heaven.

And I would say the same for your claims... except I probably wouldn't.
Speculation can be informed, as can assumption. And imagination can definitely be shaped by truth. All these gifts are from God and used to grasp His glory. Perfect, NO. Good enough to get the job done, Yep.

 

[covenantee]

Your claims are false, bringing untrue slander and defamation upon myself

I have asked "Several Times" for you to stop accusing myself and others of being "Heretics" regarding differences in opinion

Stop your whining. I identify the belief that Christ = antichrist as heresy, but have never called you or anyone else a heretic.

Link to a post, or hold your peace.

 

[David Boyer]

Rev 20 applies to those who do not come under judgement. Jesus had previously taught this to the Apostle John. It was a concept already enjoyed for those who believed and had passed from death to life in the here and now. Clearly then it is a figurative concept in Rev 20 ...unless Jesus changed his mind.

So you are calling Jesus a liar?
Who is God that He should change His mind?

 

[dad]

It is never going to happen in the future. It has been ongoing since the one-and-only first resurrection.

I don't recall ruling with Jesus for a thousand years? I don't recall men dying at 1000 years of age and being considered children? I don't recall Jesus having returned? Work on that.

 

[Truth7t7]

And I would say the same for your claims... except I probably wouldn't.
Speculation can be informed, as can assumption. And imagination can definitely be shaped by truth. All these gifts are from God and used to grasp His glory. Perfect, NO. Good enough to get the job done, Yep.

Speculation, Assumption, And Imagination, Are Gifts From God, Used To Grasp God's Glory?

"Real Big Smiles"!

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[David Boyer]

Speculation, Assumption, And Imagination, Are Gifts From God, Used To Grasp God's Glory?

"Real Big Smiles"!

Jesus Is The Lord

Can you try to imagine what Heaven will be like?
Can you see the faces of the disciples in the upper room when the risen Christ appeared?
Can you feel the despair Judas felt when Jesus went willingly to His death instead of fighting?

Welcome to imagination as a gift from God.

 

[jeffweeder]

So you are calling Jesus a liar?
Who is God that He should change His mind?

What.
Of course not, I actually quoted him. He cannot have 2 different opinions on the same subject can he David.

 

[David Boyer]

What.
Of course not, I actually quoted him. He cannot have 2 different opinions on the same subject can he David.

Where did Jesus say "unless Jesus changed his mind"?

 

[Truth7t7]

Can you try to imagine what Heaven will be like?
Can you see the faces of the disciples in the upper room when the risen Christ appeared?
Can you feel the despair Judas felt when Jesus went willingly to His death instead of fighting?

Welcome to imagination as a gift from God.

Don't forget your proclaimed gifts of assumption and speculation?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[dad]

I believe the AoD of Dan 9 and the AoD of the Olivet Discourse as the same. But that doesn't mean I think these are called "great tribulations." The term "Great Tribulation" I find in Dan 12.1 and also in the Olivet Discourse, referring to the final NT punishment of the Jewish People which began with the rise of Rome.

It also ends the rule of all nations, and is the period the angels pour out the vials etc. The waters are made into blood, every island moves,there are two witnesses who die and rise again, etc etc etc. It is a well defined and specific time that is coming, and cannot be confused with any other time.

That's why Daniel mentioned it right after speaking of the reign of Antiochus 4.

No. The evil leader of old was a forerunner and shadow of the final king to come, and was mentioned as a launching point into the future where the prophesy is about.

The Great Tribulation, according to Luke, is the NT punishment of the Jewish people, the longest punishment in their history.

Not true. Half of the seven years of the end is the great trib and Jesus said it started exactly when the abomination of desolation is set up. It has no relation to any long period anywhere.

I do agree that the reign of Antiochus 4 foreshadows the reign of Antichrist. But we can get this confused with two separate AoDs mentioned in the book of Daniel.

The confusion is thinking there are two different ones. Jesus said the one spoken of by Daniel, not 'one of the ones' spoken of by Daniel!

One is in Dan 9, and refers to the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

No. The time specified in Dan 9 for the abominations is the wrath of God, the finishing of all things prophesied and the pouring out of the judgments decreed.
Daniel 9:27
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The one who makes desolate is the beast. Not God.

And the other refers to Antiochus 4. There is no AoD associated with the Antichrist.

No they both are about the very end. It is not hard to see looking at the passages. There are no duo abominations of desolations. Only one.

Paul's reference to the Man of Sin taking a seat in the temple of God may be figurative for his self-proclaimed deity, since Paul knew that the temple of Herod was soon to disappear from history.

That is fuzzy nonsense. The man of sin is a title of a specific man who also is known by other titles and names. The AntiChrist is the one known for proclaiming he is God.