Why I'm Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

Honestly, you don't understand my point on this? I'm saying that Church and believers in Christ, ie "Christians," are referred to in two entirely different ways in the Scriptures.

Are you not understanding my point on this? I'm saying no, they are not. A Christian is someone who is saved and belongs to Christ.

You asked me to provide where in the Scriptures "Christians" and the "Church" can refer to the unsaved, so I'm answering your question, and you're just not getting it.

I showed you how your scripture references do not refer to unbelievers as Christians. The letters are addressed to churches whose members were not all Christians just as is still the case today. Attending a church does not make someone a Christian. What is hard to understand about this?

So 1) Christians and the Church refer exclusively to the saved, and not one unsaved person.

Correct.

And 2) Christians and the Church refer to local churches where "Christians" have not yet fully examined themselves and tested themselves to see if they are truly in Christ.

You are using the term "Christian" wrongly here. If someone is not truly in Christ then they are not a Christian. Very simple.

I gave the Scripture proofs to WPM, and he just chucked it aside--is it any wonder?

I didn't. I addressed all of them. None of them support your case.

He asks me for a Bible reference, and says I have "nothing."

A lot of times you don't. A vast majority of your posts don't include scriptural support for your claims.

And then when I give him my Bible references he says it doesn't count because he has a different interpretation of the passage.

Whatever. That's between you and him. Has nothing to do with me.

I've never said he or you have to agree on my Bible interpretations.

Of course we don't.

But when he says I provide "nothing" biblical, he really needs to add a caveat to that statement? ;)

I have no interest in talking about someone else with you like this. Let's just talk to each other here and not about other people because you and I were discussing something.

So the following verses I gave him, and they are delivered by Paul and John to local churches who consist of people who have not yet completely determined their stand in Christ. As you yourself say, some of them are in the end not true Christians. But that doesn't mean that the Bible does not refer to them as believers in Christ to start with!

John 8.31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

2 Cor 13.3-5 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.
1 Cor 9.27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Eph 3.17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love
Gal 4.19 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you
John 15.4 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.
1 John 3.24 And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
2 Tim 3.8 They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
Tit 1.16 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him.

I already addressed these in post #201. None of those teach that unbelievers can be considered Christians.

 

[WPM]

You've just told me everything I need to know about you, at least for right now, and I hope that improves for your sake. I know what I've said and not said. You've revealed yourself.

Much love!

You need to repent!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've lost interest in debating with you. You're neither a fair nor a kind debater. I gave you 8 or more references, and you show you're insincere by completely ignoring them as irrelevant or "nothing." You're a very insulting person, and I hope you come to terms with this insulting way of life. You won't communicate a message by this kind of shady manipulation.

Randy, will you please stop being a hypocrite? Read post #239 where WPM listed several rude and insulting comments that you've made. You think we can't see through your holier than thou act? Think again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You've just told me everything I need to know about you, at least for right now, and I hope that improves for your sake. I know what I've said and not said. You've revealed yourself.

Are you denying that you said the things he listed in post #238?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you not understanding my point on this? I'm saying no, they are not. A Christian is someone who is saved and belongs to Christ.

Then we have nothing more to talk about. I gave you 7 or 8 passages indicating that the church includes "Christians" who could fall away from their initial commitment. If you don't accept my Scriptural proofs, then we might as well move on to our next "disagreement?" ;)

 

[WPM]

Then we have nothing more to talk about. I gave you 7 or 8 passages indicating that the church includes "Christians" who could fall away from their initial commitment. If you don't accept my Scriptural proofs, then we might as well move on to our next "disagreement?" ;)

Oh. So, a Christian is someone who goes to church on a Sunday. You really don't get it do you? No wonder your theology is messed up.

And, you are yet to give any supporting Scripture for your invention.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, will you please stop being a hypocrite? Read post #239 where WPM listed several rude and insulting comments that you've made. You think we can't see through your holier than thou act? Think again.

Right after you tell me you don't want to talk about "someone else" you post this? It is not hypocritical nor wrong to declare someone's sin. If someone puts their Amill beliefs ahead of their commitment to Christ's *love,* then they have an idol. The object is not to name call, but to remind us all to get back to civility, if at all possible. I'm not going to apologize for saying this, because I believe it to be true. I apologize all the time to my wife when I do wrong. What I don't do is apologize for trying to help someone get away from their "idols."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh. So, a Christian is someone who goes to church on a Sunday. You really don't get it do you? No wonder your theology is messed up.

And, you are yet to give any supporting Scripture for your invention.

Are you even a real Christian? Nothing you say has the spirit of Christ's love in it. How long have you been hood-winking people like this? You have a malicious, accusing spirit. When I try to get us back to civility and to Christian love, your very next comments are more of the same. Others should be warned about you, because you apologize but you don't really repent.

Please put me on your "blocked" list. I have no interest in discussing things with someone with a horrible, self-righteous attitude, who boasts in his knowledge, who declares only he gets to declare what is "Scriptural." I never block anybody in the hope better times may come...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then we have nothing more to talk about. I gave you 7 or 8 passages indicating that the church includes "Christians" who could fall away from their initial commitment.

This discussion is not about Christians who fall away. It's about who is a Christian at any given time and who isn't. Only those who currently belong to Christ are Christians. If someone was a Christian but fell away then they are not a Christian. Why would you refer to them as a Christian in their current state of unbelief regardless of what they may have believed before?

You are trying to teach that a person who doesn't even submit to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be considered a Christian. That is absolutely not true. But, if you think it is, then show me the scripture which teaches that. None of the verses you shared before teach that. I addressed all of those in post #201, so feel free to look at that post and respond if you want.

If you don't accept my Scriptural proofs, then we might as well move on to our next "disagreement?" ;)

Why do you have no interest in backing up your scriptural proofs by explaining exactly why you think they are scriptural proofs? Just saying that they prove your claim isn't enough.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right after you tell me you don't want to talk about "someone else" you post this?

I was not talking about WPM, I was talking about you and what you said, which he quoted. That someone else posted what you said is irrelevant. Are you going to deny that you said what was indicated in post #239? Who do you think you are when you criticize someone else for things that you do yourself? That's hypocritical.

It is not hypocritical nor wrong to declare someone's sin.

It is when you're not willing to acknowledge your own.

If someone puts their Amill beliefs ahead of their commitment to Christ's *love,* then they have an idol.

I see you putting your Premill belief ahead of your commitment to Christ's love. Take the plank out of your own eye first before judging someone else.

The object is not to name call, but to remind us all to get back to civility, if at all possible.

That is definitely what I would prefer, but since this site is not moderated, then it's a free for all of immature, rude insults flying around everywhere. I don't want this forum to be as heavily moderated as another forum you and I are both on, but some moderation would be nice.

I'm not going to apologize for saying this, because I believe it to be true. I apologize all the time to my wife when I do wrong. What I don't do is apologize for trying to help someone get away from their "idols."

This is so incredibly hypocritical. How is Amil our idol when you spend just as much time defending Premil as we do Amil? That's ridiculous. So, either Premil is your idol as well or what you're saying is nonsense. So, which is it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh. So, a Christian is someone who goes to church on a Sunday. You really don't get it do you? No wonder your theology is messed up.

I can't even fathom how any Christian would not even understand what a Christian is. It's baffling.

And, you are yet to give any supporting Scripture for your invention.

In fairness, he did try to give some supporting scripture (I think it was yesterday). I don't recall which post number it was, but I know I responded to it in post #201. So, you can backtrack to it from there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you even a real Christian? Nothing you say has the spirit of Christ's love in it.

Do the things you are quoted as saying in post #239 have the spirit of Christ's love in them? I don't believe so. Look, I applaud your intention to try to help put an end to all the insults, but to pretend as if you haven't taken part in it is just completely hypocritical. Start with yourself to make things right and then you can help correct others.

How long have you been hood-winking people like this? You have a malicious, accusing spirit. When I try to get us back to civility and to Christian love, your very next comments are more of the same. Others should be warned about you, because you apologize but you don't really repent.

Have you even apologized for your own insulting comments?

Please put me on your "blocked" list. I have no interest in discussing things with someone with a horrible, self-righteous attitude, who boasts in his knowledge, who declares only he gets to declare what is "Scriptural." I never block anybody in the hope better times may come...

You often come across as self-righteous yourself on this forum. I guess you are just very lacking in self awareness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do the things you are quoted as saying in post #239 have the spirit of Christ's love in them? I don't believe so. Look, I applaud your intention to try to help put an end to all the insults, but to pretend as if you haven't taken part in it is just completely hypocritical. Start with yourself to make things right and then you can help correct others.

Have you even apologized for your own insulting comments?

You often come across as self-righteous yourself on this forum. I guess you are just very lacking in self awareness.

The problem is, we see things from different perspectives, and we can't impose our own perspective on that of someone else. That's when it's important to just drop the demands for apologies and return to having good Christian relations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This discussion is not about Christians who fall away. It's about who is a Christian at any given time and who isn't. Only those who currently belong to Christ are Christians. If someone was a Christian but fell away then they are not a Christian. Why would you refer to them as a Christian in their current state of unbelief regardless of what they may have believed before?

You are trying to teach that a person who doesn't even submit to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be considered a Christian. That is absolutely not true. But, if you think it is, then show me the scripture which teaches that. None of the verses you shared before teach that. I addressed all of those in post #201, so feel free to look at that post and respond if you want.

Why do you have no interest in backing up your scriptural proofs by explaining exactly why you think they are scriptural proofs? Just saying that they prove your claim isn't enough.

Well, I could be mixing up your posts with those of WPM? He doesn't seem to be interested in understanding someone's position--just winning arguments. You may be different. I'll look up 201.

Okay, I hadn't see that. Your argument is that people in church who backslide are not "Christians." I don't find that to be true. I've been in churches from day one, and I've seen many who claim to have faith in Christ, only to reveal later that their commitment was half-hearted or altogether false.

Should we call people who attend church regularly, who know the Lord, who profess to believe in Him, non-Christians simply because later they fall away?

The hope is to have an entire nation profess to believe in Christ. And it has happened! However, many fit into the category of "incomplete Christians."

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was not talking about WPM, I was talking about you and what you said, which he quoted. That someone else posted what you said is irrelevant. Are you going to deny that you said what was indicated in post #239? Who do you think you are when you criticize someone else for things that you do yourself? That's hypocritical.

It is when you're not willing to acknowledge your own.

I see you putting your Premill belief ahead of your commitment to Christ's love. Take the plank out of your own eye first before judging someone else.

That is definitely what I would prefer, but since this site is not moderated, then it's a free for all of immature, rude insults flying around everywhere. I don't want this forum to be as heavily moderated as another forum you and I are both on, but some moderation would be nice.

This is so incredibly hypocritical. How is Amil our idol when you spend just as much time defending Premil as we do Amil? That's ridiculous. So, either Premil is your idol as well or what you're saying is nonsense. So, which is it?

I was referring to WPM. Are you in such close alliance with him that all I say to him applies to you also?

As far as moderation goes, it's difficult to censor without making false judgments. It's best if the parties just quit when things get hostile. WPM never quits. And you always seem to be there to back him up. What are you--close personal friends with him?

If so, I suggest you break from that friendship because his spirit is not good. No matter how I try to mend fences--even apologize, if necessary, it makes no difference. I first met up with him on another forum. And he never changes. Everybody he talks to he talks down to, as if he is the scholar and they have "nothing."

 

[marks]

Well, I could be mixing up your posts with those of WPM? He doesn't seem to be interested in understanding someone's position--just winning arguments. You may be different. I'll look up 201.

Okay, I hadn't see that. Your argument is that people in church who backslide are not "Christians." I don't find that to be true. I've been in churches from day one, and I've seen many who claim to have faith in Christ, only to reveal later that their commitment was half-hearted or altogether false.

Should we call people who attend church regularly, who know the Lord, who profess to believe in Him, non-Christians simply because later they fall away?

The hope is to have an entire nation profess to believe in Christ. And it has happened! However, many fit into the category of "incomplete Christians."

Just to mention . . . "backsliding" is only used in the Bible referring to Israel, in the OT.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's best if the parties just quit when things get hostile.

I think so also.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was referring to WPM. Are you in such close alliance with him that all I say to him applies to you also?

I figured you must look at me the same way. I obviously spend a lot of time defending Amil, so I figure you must think it's my idol. That's not the case? So, what is it about him that makes Amil his idol but not mine? And how is Premil not your idol?

As far as moderation goes, it's difficult to censor without making false judgments. It's best if the parties just quit when things get hostile. WPM never quits. And you always seem to be there to back him up. What are you--close personal friends with him?

Are you jealous or something that he and I get along well? It just so happens that I agree with him on most things relating to eschatology. Does that bother you? It shouldn't.

If so, I suggest you break from that friendship because his spirit is not good.

And yours is? You are such a hypocrite. It's incredible. You never acknowledge your own poor behavior. You think you're perfect and holier than thou. It's not surprising that you don't recognize that.

No matter how I try to mend fences--even apologize, if necessary, it makes no difference.

When have you apologized? I have seen where he has apologized. You need to stop acting like you're better than him. You're not.

I first met up with him on another forum. And he never changes. Everybody he talks to he talks down to, as if he is the scholar and they have "nothing."

A lot of times on these forums people just give their opinions and do nothing to back them up with scripture. They deserve to be called out on that. You can't think you're making a legitimate argument without backing it up with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, I could be mixing up your posts with those of WPM?

I have no idea. Only you can determine that.

He doesn't seem to be interested in understanding someone's position--just winning arguments.

That is how you come across as well. You come across as a hypocrite to me. I don't often use that word, but you continually accuse others of things that you do yourself.

You may be different. I'll look up 201.

Okay, I hadn't see that. Your argument is that people in church who backslide are not "Christians." I don't find that to be true. I've been in churches from day one, and I've seen many who claim to have faith in Christ, only to reveal later that their commitment was half-hearted or altogether false.

Should we call people who attend church regularly, who know the Lord, who profess to believe in Him, non-Christians simply because later they fall away?

You're not getting the point, Randy. I'm talking in terms of any given point in time, who is a Christian? Right now, is anyone who doesn't belong to Christ a Christian? I'm not talking about people who are more spiritually mature than others or anything like that. Christians have various levels of spiritual maturity. But, they all belong to Christ. You seem to be suggesting that people who don't even belong to Christ can be considered Christians. How can that be?

The hope is to have an entire nation profess to believe in Christ. And it has happened! However, many fit into the category of "incomplete Christians."

What in the world are you talking about here? Claiming to believe in Christ and actually believing in Him and trusting in Him as one's personal Lord and Savior are two entirely different things. Why do you not differentiate between the two? Even the demons believe and tremble. Your view seems to imply that even demons are Christians. I don't get it.

 

[marks]

Are you denying that you said the things he listed in post #238?

Try to find them. Then you will know the answer for yourself. Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

;)

Much love!