All you can do is cut-and-paste or chide people. You have a difficulty with addressing other peoples arguments. That is why you are holding on so tight to major elements of Dispensationalism. You are one step away from becoming a Premil.
22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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All you can do is cut-and-paste or chide people. You have a difficulty with addressing other peoples arguments. That is why you are holding on so tight to major elements of Dispensationalism. You are one step away from becoming a Premil.
Spiritual Israelite
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Is that your understanding of this passage which talks about destruction accompanying the day of the Lord as well?
1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
By interpreting scripture with scripture, we can conclude that the destruction that Paul said will come on people suddenly at the arrival of the day of the Lord from which "they will not escape" will be by fire. So, do you see the sudden destruction that Paul talked about as occurring 1000+ years after the return of Christ just like how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12?
Spiritual Israelite
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In verse 26 it talks about the destruction of "the city and the sanctuary". Do you believe the consummation relates to that in the sense of the city and the sanctuary being brought to an "ultimate end"?
Daniel 9:26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Spiritual Israelite
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He repeatedly fails to address the arguments being made against his view and he just repeats the same things over and over. If his view was true then he should be able to defend it when challenged, but he doesn't do that. The next argument he addresses specifically will be the first one.
Truth7t7
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No interpretation is needed, it's speaking of a event that the earth will observe, and it didn't take place in 66-70AD
Revelation chapter 13 gives a detailed description of (The Beast) as a human man, you can't pull a single verse out of context and create a doctrine as you do
John wrote the Revelation in 96AD, long after claims of 66-70AD fulfillment
Paul speaks clearly of the "Son Of Perdition", and how he will be revealed to a "Future" church on this earth
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Revelation 17:8KJV
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
More regurgitated Darby/Scofield dispensationalism.
You're absolutely addicted to it.
It possesses you.
Keep it coming. Every additional post only further confirms your actual convictions.
A confirmed devout steadfast resolute Darby/Scofield dispensationalist.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This says it all. You say no interpretation is needed and yet you can't tell me what it means when it says the beast "was, is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". Did you mean to say you don't know how to interpret that, but that doesn't matter to you because you're going to just believe what you want to believe regardless?
Truth7t7
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You have no argument, Screaming Darby/Scofield hasn't answered the truth before your eyes, your response is "Silent"
"Biblical Truth" before your eyes, your claim of 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD is Pinocchio's nose is growing again
Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End
"Future" Events Unfulfilled
This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled
(The Future Consummation)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end
Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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Truth7t7
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"The interpretation is before your eyes", it's speaking of a event that the earth will observe, and it didn't take place in 66-70AD
Revelation chapter 13 gives a detailed description of (The Beast) as a human man, you can't pull a single verse out of context and create a doctrine as you do
John wrote the Revelation in 96AD, long after claims of 66-70AD fulfillment
Paul speaks clearly of the "Son Of Perdition", and how he will be revealed to a "Future" church on this earth
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Revelation 17:8KJV
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Truth7t7
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Spiritual Israelite
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How do you know I'm pulling that verse out of context? If that's the case then you should be able to tell me what the verse means. So, can you please do that instead of repeating your same rhetoric over and over again?
I agree. The date he wrote the book has nothing to do with my understanding of the beast.
What does it mean when it says the beast "was, and is not"? If you can't answer that question then you can't possibly know what the figurative beast with seven heads and ten horns represents.
Spiritual Israelite
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I find it to be incredibly sad that any Amil would not recognize that Daniel 9:27 is talking about Jesus confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the need for animal sacrifices and offerings and not about some imaginary bad guy. I know dispensationalists interpret it that way, but you should know better.
Truth7t7
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(The Beast) will be a future individual human man, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him,
Revelation 17:8 & Revelation 13:3 same (The Beast), same world wondering after the human man (The Beast) "Future"
Revelation 17:8KJV
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 13:1-14KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
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Truth7t7
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I find it sad,that you reject simple biblical truth before your eyes, simple and very easy to understand
"Biblical Truth" before your eyes, your claim of 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD is Pinocchio's nose is growing again
Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End
"Future" Events Unfulfilled
This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled
(The Future Consummation)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end
Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
This whole passage is focused upon Calvary and the irreversible effect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. The first thing we see is that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centred on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.
From this passage, it is clear that it is the nature and exercise and of these abominations that causes the desolation to occur. It is evidently the gross wickedness of these abominations that draws God’s wrath upon the temple. Also, for the fury of God to be justly focused on the temple (the center of Jewish worship), the Jewish people, who this prophecy was primarily directed towards, must perpetrate them. It cannot relate to the practices of others, especially the heathen, who had NO part in or responsible for or to the temple.
While the rebuilding of the city was to occur within the 70 weeks (the first 7 weeks specifically) the date of the final destruction of the temple – which resulted from the once all-sufficient sacrifice for sin (in the midst of the 70th week) as predicted in Daniel 9:24 – is NOT specified. It says, “for (or because of) the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its now obsolete ordinances).”
“The overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious continuing of the now abolished temple sacrifices by the Jews. And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.
Impossible!
1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.
Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”
“for”
Before advancing into this matter further let us first note: the word “for” is not in the original text. It was an English translation addition. The verse simply tells us that Messiah the prince would confirm the covenant with many one seven.
The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27 reads:
gabar Shall Confirm
bariyth Covenant
rab with many
echad one
shabuwa week
The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years duration. This whole passage is clearly focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. We learn that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.
Secondly, it doesn't say that a covenant is made, as our Dispensational brethren propose. Unfortunately they enter into all types of wild speculations on this passage through the writings of the Dispensational school of thought. Rather it tells us that a covenant would be confirmed. The covenant in view that was to be confirmed was none other than the new covenant. It was a covenant that originated in eternity; it was anticipated and predicted in time, and was finally and perfectly realised when God ordained it.
“confirm”
The word translated “confirm” here is the Hebrew word gabar meaning to be strong, strengthen, prevail.
Paul speaking of Christ’s eternal covenant at Calvary, says, “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17).
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
I think you are misunderstanding. They were not to be unsettled at some alleged letter that was supposed to come from them regarding the DOL had already come.
Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
As far as the Apostles are concerned there is no difference between his coming and the day of the Lord.
Chap1 clearly has those who reject the Gospel being banished from his coming presence on the day we are glorified in him.
This also happens in chap 2...,highlighted below.
6 And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.
Truth7t7
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Your claim Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in 66-70AD Jerusalem is false, and is "Silenced" in the scriptural truth below, no the Consummation wasn't Jerusalems destruction in 66-70AD "Next"
This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled
(The Future Consummation)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end
Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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