22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

I am communicating just fine. You just don't like how it adds up.

Self-praise is no recommendation. That is in your opinion. To the rest of us, it is called: Fudging the Issues.

 

[WPM]

It is as if he equates his own words with Scripture. Very strange. He rarely backs up his claims with scripture. He says that scripture says this and it says that. But where? Who knows? I would say nowhere.

I agree. Some people simply like to be heard. However, Scripture is all that matters here.

 

[Timtofly]

If you read 1 Corinthians 15, you should see that Paul indicates that no one besides Christ has an incorruptible body yet and no one else will until Christ's second coming at the last trumpet. Your claims about Lazarus and those who were referenced in Matthew 27, contradict what Paul taught.

Your interpretation contradicts 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Of course the dead will get an incorruptible body. Those currently in Christ in Paradise are not the dead. They have passed from death to life. They no longer taste death, period, is the point. Paul claims Jesus brings them with Him, not gathers them from sheol.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But you claimed that God is gathering Jews. Does that not mean that He is gathering Jews from outside of the land of Israel to bring them inside of the land of Israel?

Thus the question remains: What are the criteria that God uses to identify Jews outside of the land of Israel?

Yes, God brings the Jewish People, which anybody can identify ethnically, ie by their attention to Jewish tradition, Jewish society, etc. We know they are a backslidden people, continuing in Rabbinic Judaism. And as I said, there is no specific "Jewish gene." Jewish genes are spread broadly. So the main criteria is being a part of Jewish society. And that society accepts as "Jewish" those who are born of a Jewish mother, or those who convert to Judaism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh! So, you do not believe these are all natural designations?

What is the hope of Israel? Jesus Christ and eternal life. How does a nation experience that? The New Testament is very clear that salvation is personal. It is definitely not national. Nations do not enter into the hope of Israel, individuals do.

Your sense of Salvation has no context to it. For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience in fellowship with God on a new earth. When you divorce yourself from the OT that's what happens. You lose all of the specific promises that were grounded in Abraham's faith, in Israel, and inthe nations that God promised would share Abraham's faith.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, God brings the Jewish People, which anybody can identify ethnically, ie by their attention to Jewish tradition, Jewish society, etc. We know they are a backslidden people, continuing in Rabbinic Judaism. And as I said, there is no specific "Jewish gene." Jewish genes are spread broadly. So the main criteria is being a part of Jewish society. And that society accepts as "Jewish" those who are born of a Jewish mother, or those who convert to Judaism.

I do not see a single one of those appearing in NT Scripture as a criterion that God uses to identify Jews that He will gather.

You mention "Jewish tradition", about which Christ said in admonishing the Pharisees:

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition...

What supporting NT Scriptures can you cite?

 

[Timtofly]

How in the world could any mortal survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-13? There is no indication whatsoever that the burning up of the heavens and the earth occurs 1000+ years after the return of Christ. Peter talked about how we should be careful about how we're living our lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. Why would that matter if the destruction he described didn't even occur until 1000+ years after Christ returned?

Why do you keep answering with 1,000 years after the Second Coming? That is avoiding the point, that people do survive this refining fire. They have to in order to be killed directly by Jesus, and not just geological conditions as all the angels coming to earth as well.

Do Amil contradict Scripture, and reject that the angels come to earth? Certainly there is an earth to come to, and people on the earth the angels deal with. The Millennium is a new creation after the refining fire removes all the works on the earth. You all post the verses, but refuse to take into account all the words in those verses.

Even the 144k are on the earth being protected from this refining fire, and Jacob's trouble, never before experienced by all humans at one time.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't make that claim. I don't believe that the church has replaced Israel. I believe they are two separate entities.

You do not purposely use that name online? Or is it subconsciously chosen?

How is the church even considered Israel? It has been over 1900 years since Paul was explaining to his own people they were not being replaced, but yet God was rejecting them at the same time. If God is going to return and change the will of those of Israel who currently reject Him, and allow them to live on earth 1,000 years, that is in the context of current reality. Taking that reality away is the same thing as saying, they will never be chosen by God again, after the fulness of the Gentiles.

But pre-mill is not about making Israel preeminent, any more or less than Jesus is a physical Israelite, and He is preeminent. The Millennium will have a remnant from every nation, in that first generation starting out on a newly created earth. That is the Scriptures. Not just humans guessing at what is going to happen, and then declaring the guessing game cannot work. Of course the guessing game won't work, and the Amil guess that "1,000" is just symbolism of the here and now, is the biggest con guess of the ages. Most pre-mill are wrong declaring sinners inhabit the Millennium, because they refuse to see the redemptive work of God changing a soul out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies as He Wills. That is the sovereignty of God at work in separating Israel as sheep from the goats. Or sowing wheat to produce His own harvest along with Satan's tares. All these points in the Gospels are Jesus telling us about His personal, on earth, future Second Coming, that all seem to be in the dark about, because they all cling to human theology that is just a guessing game.

 

[WPM]

Your sense of Salvation has no context to it. For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience in fellowship with God on a new earth. When you divorce yourself from the OT that's what happens. You lose all of the specific promises that were grounded in Abraham's faith, in Israel, and in the nations that God promised would share Abraham's faith.

What are you talking about? Salvation is something that people experience in life. They experienced the fruit or resulting blessing of salvation on the new earth. Anyway, your future millennium is saturated with sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying, corruption and decay followed by the greatest uprising in history against Christ and the saints (as "the sand of the sea").

Amillennialists do not divorce themselves from the Old Testament. There's another deliberate false charge. They let the New Testament interpret it. It is the fuller, greater and clearer revelation. You are constantly explaining away the New Testament by your faulty opinion of what the Old Testament prophets taught.

Abraham is represented throughout the Bible as the father of the faithful – both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. He is depicted as the father of the whole believing family – Jew and Gentile. The apostle Paul tells us that Abraham is “the father of all them that believe” (Romans 4:11). The ongoing covenant relationship is therefore found in the spiritual seed of Abraham – those of faith who have embraced Christ. This is a covenant community of Jews and Gentiles who possess and exercise the faith of Abraham. It is only those who possess the faith of Abraham who accrue the blessing of Abraham.

This passage must surely remove any dispute over who today holds the approval of God. The blessings that pertain to God’s people and the curses that attend to those who oppose God’s people relate exclusively to the Christian in our day. It is not resting on a physical natural nation that rejects Christ but a spiritual nation that adores Him.

Romans 4:9-12 reinforces the non-ethnic character of this covenant with man: “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

While Paul is recognizing that Abraham is the father of the old covenant circumcised believers, he is also telling us that he is equally the father of the new covenant uncircumcised believers. He is primarily highlighting that “faith” is the key element here. It is the essential requirement for being a true child of Abraham, and experiencing the blessed favor of God. Paul does not dismiss the natural terms “the circumcised” and “the uncircumcised” or even dilute them in a physical sense, that would be confusing, he uses them to show that natural designations mean nothing today; only spiritual heritage (regardless of birthplace) is beneficial.

We see an explanation and identification of who the children of Abraham actually are throughout the New Testament. Paul the Apostle informed the largely Gentile church in Rome, in Romans 4:13-15, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law (natural Israelites) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.”

Paul keeps pressing home this point in his writings that the true seed of Abraham is not physical, but spiritual. These are a redeemed people of all nations that have entered into the household of faith. The fundamental thrust of the Abrahamic promise is continually shown not to be directed toward a physical people through keeping the law or a set of religious rules or rituals but rather a spiritual people of faith. This covenant was made with a faithful believing people (irrespective of circumcision or uncircumcision) who were in a right standing with God. God’s chosen people (the elect) were (and always will be) the Lord’s redeemed saints.

Paul also shows the scope of divine favor moving from a small area in the Middle East to include the whole world. Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ are said to be heirs with Abraham and will inherit “the world.” Being an “heir” normally relates to land and inheritance. In the case of Abraham, it referred to the expanse of the geographical globe – “heir of the world.” This shows us the worldwide nature and scope of the promised land. This is a monumental shift in the area being possessed by the people of God. Clearly there is a geographical expansion on the land inheritance in the New Testament. No longer is the territory in view or the inheritance promised limited to a small parcel of land in the Middle East. Through faith in Christ the area of inheritance expands to include the whole earth.

 

[WPM]

Your sense of Salvation has no context to it. For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience in fellowship with God on a new earth. When you divorce yourself from the OT that's what happens. You lose all of the specific promises that were grounded in Abraham's faith, in Israel, and in the nations that God promised would share Abraham's faith.

Paul expands upon this great truth in Galatians 4:21-31, by asking a question: “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” and are “in bondage” or “born after the Spirit” and are “free.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. As Albert Barnes states: “The phrase ‘after the flesh’ is designed to denote the Jews who were not converted to Christianity; the natural descendants of Israel, or Jacob.”

Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural pedigree means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

Paul goes even further, he identifies who are biblically qualified to be considered as true children of Abraham. He informs the largely Gentile audience (the Galatian believers) that they are the true offspring of Isaac. He says: “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.” He shows that those that are “born of the Spirit” are “the children of promise” and therefore “free.” He depicts unregenerate Israel as that which is “born after the flesh” and dismisses her as being under “bondage.” The apostle explains that “Jerusalem which now is … is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

What he is saying is: only those who are found in Christ (Old Testament and New Testament) qualify to be God’s chosen people. The antithesis group include all those that are “born after the flesh” (Galatians 4:22-33). It is this unregenerate company that are condemned by the law. It is the law that will seal their sentence. Because they did not put their trust in the Law-keeper Christ they will be condemned by the Law. These are under “bondage.” The elect is not part of this group. Paul continually contrasts those that are justified by the Law to those that are justified by faith.

Futurists may venerate Christ-rejecting Israel today, but, these descriptions that are applied to them here are quite a damming condemnation upon those who are merely “born after the flesh” and not “by promise.” Natural pedigree is continually shown in the New Testament to carry no weight in God’s eyes. One’s birthplace, birth-date, stock, social status, color or surname can never produce “a new creature.”

The covenant promises to Abraham in Genesis 12 are not unqualified blanket blessings to every natural Israelite. Scripture after scripture makes it clear that the favor upon Abraham’s progeny was not wholesale to all the Hebrew race but rather to a faithful spiritual remnant from “all families of the earth” (Genesis 12:3). We see that repeated throughout both the Old and New Testament.

There are two different types of offspring emanating from Abraham here. One exclusively of the flesh (and which carries no automatic merit before God), and the other one is spiritual (and carries the blessing and favor of God). The fleshly lineage was solely fleshly, but the spiritual lineage was never limited to race, and was spiritual.

Paul actually refers to God’s promise in Genesis 12:1-3 and relates it fulfilment to the largely Gentile New Testament Church. Galatians 3:6-9, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Paul the apostle looks back here to the covenant promise made with Abraham in Genesis and shows us who it applies to. He, very clearly, shows that they apply to the people of God (Jew and Gentile) both in the Old Testament and the New Testament – all those who have put their trust in the Messiah Christ. There is no alternative explanation here!

We see the Old Testament Abrahamic promises being fulfilled in the new covenant era through the gathering in of Gentile believers from among all the peoples of the earth into the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ. We, the redeemed of all nations, today, are the children of promise along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We are their spiritual offspring. These are God’s chosen people.

Galatians 3:13-14 continues, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

Calvary is here advanced as the defining moment for the Gentiles (repeatedly referred to in Scripture as the nations). It was the turning point in God’s plan of salvation for “the nations.” No longer would they suffer in complete darkness. All that are found in Christ (the ultimate son of Abraham) are considered the seed of Abraham. Saving faith is the spiritual quality that identifies the true children of Abraham irrespective of race or birthday. Those who would argue otherwise argue with Scripture and present a false theory.

Galatians 3:16-18 adds: “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

The Abrahamic promises are realized in Christ. Whilst Christ was the fulfilment of every physical promise to Israel, His mission was totally spiritual. He came to redeem fallen man from his hopeless condition. We should not forget: Christ did not have a physical offspring, He only had a spiritual offspring. This reminds us that the true seed of Abraham are not physical or ethnic but totally spiritual. The spiritual seed is the household of faith. That holy seed is the believing elect remnant taken from Israel and from throughout the nations.

The blessing God promised in Abraham is found exclusively in Jesus Christ and what He secured for sinful man at Calvary. He is the realization of every single Old Testament covenant. God’s covenant with Abraham is to his seed (singular) not to his seeds (plural). And the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises to Abraham pertain is Christ. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. This is all that matters, as racial birth or appearance carry no favor with God. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.”

 

[Timtofly]

Nowhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament supports your interpretation of Revelation 20. It is a totally non-corroborative theory. Neither the Law, the prophets, Christ or the New Testament writers, taught a future age in between this age and the age to come, between time and eternity. That is a Premil invention. They all actually thought the opposite. They taught about a d ay coming when Jesus would appear in all his final matchless power and glory to terminate time and the bondage of corruption, sin and sinners, Satan and his devils.

To best understand the Old Testament prophets and their prophecies, it is both wise and smart to start with the fuller revelation and see how they were viewed and interpreted by Christ and the New Testament writers. We can then work back the way and let clear, explicit and fulfilment interpret the vague, shadow and symbolic, not the other way around. Most Bible students do the opposite. They start by speculating what they think the Old Testament prophet meant. False doctrine is often what results.

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming, it is often written in veiled and incomplete detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.

A lot of Christians today overlook this reality and therefore have a bias and faulty perspective of natural Israel. They make the mistake of viewing physical Israel today through Old Testament glasses. They fail to see that the Old Testament dispensation has gone forever and the New Testament era has fully and wholly superseded it. The old system has been totally dismantled and abolished because it was only ever intended to be a temporary covenant with an expiration date. Its conclusion occurred when Christ died on the cross. We see that with the ripping of the curtain in the temple at the very moment Jesus breathed His last breath (Matthew 27:50-51, Mark 15:37-38 and Luke 23:45-46). It therefore has no further purpose for time and eternity.

Ignorance of New Testament truth leads many to a distorted and erroneous understanding of Old Testament truth. Ironically, and paradoxically, especially allowing for how they describe themselves, many Futurists choose to live in the past. They understand ethnic Israel today in an old covenant sense, rather than a new covenant context. It is as if the old covenant is still active and valid and the new covenant has yet to arrive. Futurists seem unable (or unwilling) to recognize the seismic shift that occurred through the introduction of the new covenant. When pressed, they continually run back to the Old Testament for some type of support for a favored place for national Israel, a return of the Jews to their ancient land boundaries, the reintroduction of the old covenant apparatus, including a rebuilt physical temple, animal blood sacrifices, and a restored Old Testament priesthood. They have to pitch their tent in the Hebrew Scriptures because they have absolutely no endorsement in the New Testament for their theological model.

Sensible and enlightened Bible scholars place greater emphasis on the New Testament because it is the fuller revelation and it is where we now reside. God’s truth has been a gradual progressive unfolding and unveiling of truth to mankind from the beginning. The change and advancement that came with the New Testament era did not jettison the old Hebrew promises but rather fulfilled them. The doctrinal light became a lot clearer with Christ’s appearance and vivid illumination of the whole dynamic between the Old and the New Testament and the first and second advents. Our Lord removed the existing vail, dispelled the religious mist and has shed much-needed light on God’s redemptive plan.

That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the old covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered). The New Testament is latent in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is patent in the New Testament.

As Reformed Theologian Vern Poythress explains: “The significance of a type is not fully discernible until the time of fulfillment … In other words, one must compare later Scripture to earlier Scripture to understand everything” (Understanding Dispensationalists).

If the Bible student fails to grasp the whole inter-relationship between the Old and New Testament then surely, they are going be all over the place when it comes to quite a number of subjects in the Bible. But equally, it would be very difficult to comprehend the whole interconnection between the Old and New Testaments without understanding the actual relationship between Israel and the Church.

The only information given in Revelation 20 is the length, 1,000 years. It is on earth, with Christ. It is for those who are blessed enjoying a first physical resurrection.

What those people do is not given. How they live is not given. That is found in the OT prophets.

It is Amil who deny the length given. Deny people can live on a newly created earth for 1,000 years with a new physically resurrected body. Deny it is with Christ. They even deny that those who start out in verse 4 are the camp of the saints in verse 9 this entire 1,000 years.

John is not specific enough to literally spell out every step in the process to Amil standards of literary workmanship. Thus Amil need 22 reasons why Revelation 20 is not to their literary taste.

 

[Timtofly]

Peter had his mind opened by Lord, was taught by the Lord and his rock-solid confession was a means for building the Church.
Surely, he wouldn't fall short concerning the Jewish hope when he himself is looking forward to his promise.

You have the Apostle John and Jesus contradicting himself in Rev 20 taking the literal approach.

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and have passed from death to life. The second death hath no power at all over us.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

So this protection is only figurative, and not literal? They literally are not blessed? They literally do not escape the second death?

How about they are literally blessed and they literally do escape the second death, and stop putting contradictions where they do not exist?

Every one living in the Millennium are blessed and escape the second death as long as they obey.

Can you give me one individual in the last 1992 who has obeyed God 100% in all they do, while living in sin because that is the only life one can live in from birth? Being born from above, the second birth does not remove us from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It just allows us to daily crucify the flesh in submission to the Holy Spirit.

That is not what the Millennium is. There is no person in the Millennium with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have been resurrected into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Because that is the same first resurrection your soul receives when it leaves Adam's flesh which then turns back into dust, never to be raised again. Genetics gave you Adam's dead corruptible flesh. God gives you your permanent incorruptible physical body directly from God. It is not just a changed Adamic body. You are interpreting 1 Corinthians 15 wrong if you think Adam's temporal body is the same as God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, Lazarus was dead in Abraham's bosom 1 day longer than Jesus was, and fits this scenario:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Jesus purposely waited longer than they had to wait at His own tomb to prove to the whole world that He was the Resurrection and the Life. Yet most here deny that fact about Lazarus. Lazarus did not have a near death experience like the other people resurrected in Scripture. Lazarus was a body sown in corruption and 4 days later came out as incorruption. Whoever denies Lazarus received a permanent incorruptible physical body, denies these words of Paul. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture in one's interpretation thereof. Unless you think Paul was not being literal, then no one gets a new permanent incorruptible physical body. Not sure how you can describe the new body any other way, unless you make something up and avoid all other Scripture, which BTW, seems exactly what you all do. You call people immortals. Now you all can provide Greek mythology to prove your point, but no one has produced a single Scripture that states that ideology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What are you talking about? Salvation is something that people experience in life. They experienced the fruit or resulting blessing of salvation on the new earth.

What I'm talking about is that spiritual life was grounded in earthly existence in the OT, and we would benefit from their understanding now, in the NT era. We don't sit around like an old Hindu, contemplating the meaning of life, or getting high by staring at our belly button. No, we find promises in the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit applies them to us. It may be getting a job, or obtaining a ministry, or finding a wife, having kids, or even enjoying a vacation overseas. Life is what we do *with the Lord,* and not just experiencing spirituality.

When Adam walked with God in the garden, he didn't just experience spirituality. He enjoyed peering through the trees, enjoying the fruit and thanking God for the super-abundance that God has in His great wealth in resources. Similarly, Israel in the OT could thank God for giving them a land in Canaan, for giving them victory over hostile enemies, for providing abundant resources in their land. Eternal life meant, for them, an unending supply of this rich spiritual existence on earth, and not just contemplating eternity.

But your NT view is divorced from these OT life experiences by the saints. All you have is doctrine and theology, and arguments, and rage against those who disagree with you. And you triple down on anything you think is less that respectful towards your position.

It's incredible to me that you just can't seem to get the point. It is not that Israel's small land is replaced with God's big earth, that one small nation is replaced with a multitude of nations. Rather, both are true. As God loves all peoples throughout the earth so He continues to be willing to pour out His grace upon little Israel who has temporarily forsaken Him. He will build a new Israel, using a remnant that is willing to repent. Land promises are part of the package, including individual packages that apply to particular nations--not just Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul expands upon this great truth in Galatians 4:21-31, by asking a question: “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” and are “in bondage” or “born after the Spirit” and are “free.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. As Albert Barnes states: “The phrase ‘after the flesh’ is designed to denote the Jews who were not converted to Christianity; the natural descendants of Israel, or Jacob.”

Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural pedigree means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

Where do the Scriptures say that all men who are born "naturally" are "of the devil?" It never says that! You completely make that up!

What you're trying to do is create a Marcionite like dichotomy between the testaments, between Grace and Law, between the International Church and Israel. They are not in conflict. The NT fulfills the OT without cancelling God's promises made while under the OT.

Your focus is on people who are redeemed. But God planned to have people before they were believers. He planned to have them back while they were still in apostasy. God plans things in advance, and calls them before they're redeemed. After they are called, then when they choose Him, they become chosen.

God promised Abraham Israel and many nations of faith well before they existed. So no, they don't have to be regenerated in order to be truly called. And God can easily anticipate that He will choose those who accept Him.

 

[Timtofly]

What is so incredible about this assertion, is how you and many others assign that nation to the present Jewish State of Israel.
Surely common sense is sufficient to realize that the apostate Jewish people have alienated themselves from God? They cursed themselves, Matthew 27:25 and have refused to accept Jesus as Messiah for nearly 2000 years. Over 20 Prophesies say how the Lord intends to destroy them.

What better example? Why does God change something that does not need changed, ie Christians changed to Christianity? It is non Christians who are changed to Christians, no?

If current Israel repented, then God would not have to change them. Their repentance and submission to God already produced the change. The point is God raises them out of spiritual darkness. That is the valley of dry bones. If they were already perfect, then they are not dry bones, in a state of death.

 

[Truth7t7]

So the main criteria is being a part of Jewish society. And that society accepts as "Jewish" those who are born of a Jewish mother, or those who convert to Judaism.

Your claims are laughable, sad part is you believe yourself

 

[Truth7t7]

He will build a new Israel, using a remnant that is willing to repent. Land promises are part of the package, including individual packages that apply to particular nations--not just Israel.

100% Randy's Sci-Fi Fairy Tale Dream, Found No Place In Scripture

 

[Timtofly]

I was taking about Rev 20 and Jn 5
see post 2872

The first resurrection of Rev 20 cannot be physical as Jn 5 states the time for not coming into judgment was already a fact without the necessity for a physical resurrection.
Do you understand what I am saying now?
So, in order for John not to contradict himself the first resurrection of Rev 20 is in accord with his teaching in Jn 5:cool:

Why do you insert a spiritual setting into John 5 when there is none?

Certainly if you place a contradiction into God's Word, it is going to make all other Scripture contradictory to your assumption.

But the error is you adding to God's Word, not the interpretation of Scripture.

The hour for a physical resurrection already happened in 30AD, and there is nothing you can add, interpret or frankly misunderstand about God's Word, that can change that reality.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am talking about addressing each. Premils skip around these important issues all time. They have to1 The fact is: they are important, correct and reveal why so many of us have abandoned Premil. Maybe you are thinking, if you keep repeating this falsehood enough times, you might convince yourself you are right.

I did address each "reason" one-by-one, individually.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. I will take this as a compliment. You know you have no rebuttal. These 22 reasons are watertight. Ok. If you are so confident. Let's put it to the test. Care to discuss the ones that you think are a "strawman fallacy"?

As I said, I addressed them all individually.