22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Keraz]

Here is what you don't get about the Bible....

It is your failure to understand God's Plans for mankind - all of us. The House of Judah was the means He used to bring Jesus into the world.
Scripture is crystal clear that ONLY people who accept the Salvation offered by Jesus, are the peoples of God, His true Israelites.

Role Reversal:
When God shifted the entire means of salvation into the Spiritual realm and the ‘Chosen people’ from an ethnic group to all who would accept Jesus; 1 Peter 2:9-10, the identity of “Israel” was transformed into a Spiritual body. Thus, the only real Jew (or Israelite), is one who has experienced the Spiritual rebirth which is only available through Jesus.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly…in the flesh

In his magnificent teaching addressed to Christians who are of Gentile descent, Paul goes on to tell the believers that those who are born again in the Spirit, are now the real Jews:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter of the law.


Obviously, this turned everything “upside down,” but it is widely misunderstood to this very day, as it seems that God still does help those who call them themselves Jews. What we must ascertain is just who it is that helps them: God or Satan?


Surely your turning of things upside down shall be as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? Or will the pot say of the potter: He has no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

The New Testament tells of events that occurred when the era of Spiritual salvation in Christ commenced, as those who were formerly chosen, based on their ethnicity, sought to retain their special position:

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy went to the rulers of the city, crying, these that have turned the world upside down are here also. Acts 17:5-6

Amos 8:2...the time is ripe for My people Israel. Never again will I pardon them.

Paul quoted an ominous prophecy: Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets: Behold; you despisers, wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your day, Luke 13:32, a work which you won’t believe, even though a man declares it to you. Habakkuk 1:5, Acts 13:40-41


God chose Jacob’s descendants to be the people who would bring the Light of Salvation to the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:3-6

They divided into two Houses; Israel and Judah. They both disobeyed the Lord, so God sent His Son to provide a way of Atonement for those who would accept it.
Judah did not, but those of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations; have to a great extent; become the Christian peoples.


To the Ephesians, (who were classed as Gentiles by the Jews) Paul states they were once identified with the Spirit of Death, which was associated with the not chosen Gentiles – as opposed to the False Prophet/Spirit of Hell which was found in the Jews under the Old Covenant.

And you [Ephesians]…were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1

Paul goes on to say that it is that very Spirit of Death which now inhabits the children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:2

Paul also reminds the Ephesians that; they were, in times past considered Gentiles in the flesh, but now, through Jesus, they belong to a Spiritual body which is chosen by God.

But now in Christ Jesus you who before were far off are made near to God by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

Paul said the ethnic Jews were no longer to be considered Jews, Romans 2:28-29, but the Ephesian Christians were of a circumcision which is that of the heart.

Paul was careful to refer to the Christ rejecting Jews as “that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands. Ephesians 2:11


Writing to the Christians in Rome, the Apostle Paul eloquently described how Spiritual Israel, comprised of former ethnic Israelites and Gentiles, would reverse roles with those under the Old Covenant, and be spiritually born again as the people of God.

As he says in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

This shows the role reversal that happened at the Cross, in which Jewish Israel, full of the Spirit of anti-Christ, became part of the Death which inhabited the Gentiles.


The Christian Church, appointed to proclaim the Gospel to the world; is repeating the ancient apostasy and is fulfilling the prophecy of a last day’s falling away from the truth and following unscriptural doctrines.

His faithful servants should be obedient to the Lord’s command to come out of ‘Babylon’, for her sins have reached unto heaven. Jeremiah 51:6

Go out; leave Babylon behind, keep yourselves pure, you that have the favour of the Lord. You will not have to leave in haste, or leave like fugitives, as the Lord will go before you and will be your rear-guard. Isaiah 52:11-12


When the Lord destroys the ‘Babylon’ nations, He will whistle to call His faithful people from wherever they are, back to all of the holy land, where they will live in peace and prosperity. Zechariah 10:8-12

 

[dad]

No it’s true Israel the church

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Have you went to New Jerusalem yet? Have you seen thousands of angels there? But be that as it may, what does that verse have to do with the 'true Israel'? It is a beautiful verse about how our future will be. Let me ask you something. If Mount Zion is New Jerusalem, does that mean there is not also a little old mount zion on earth?

 

[dad]

The promises of the old will and testament are "taken away" by the promises of the New Will and Testament.

Because that's how wills and testaments work.

No they sure are not. His word is here forever and His promises fail not. Prophesy about what happens to Israel in the end is not a will and testament. God said man was under the curse and that was not taken away in the new testament. That is taken away in the new earth. The new will and testament did not take away the curse. It did not take away all the prophesies about the day of the Lord either! The new testament did not render the promises of God to no effect! The new testament did not end Israel being a people and nation. They were a nation for a while back then and are again today. The new testament does not render null and void the promises of God to restore and protect Israel one day. The new testament does not mean there is no Bethlehem of Jerusalem.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Obviously not. You were being dishonest by misrepresenting what we believe.

Read your post again. You seem to be in denial about what you said.

I'm not going to read my post again--I know what I said. You're the one accusing me--you quote where you think I said what I said. Quite frankly, if I produce a picture of what Amils believe, and portray it somewhat negatively from my pov, that doesn't mean I've misrepresented it--only that from my pov I disagree with it. But you're the accuser--you provide the evidence. Either that or stop making baseless claims.

But, Amils don't teach that. So, you are misrepresenting our view. Just because our understanding of all Israel being saved is different than yours doesn't mean we are denying that all Israel will be saved or that we're indicating that God's promises will fail.

I didn't say that you denied "all Israel will be saved." I said that in denying all *literal* Israel will be saved, you are in effect denying God's promise to Abraham concerning literal Israel. That was *my perspective* and not my depicting what Amils believe!

So enough of this claim that I misrepresent Amil. My view of Amil has nothing to do with misrepresenting what you believe. I know you alter the definition of Israel to mean "the International Church." In that *it is my opinion* that you are rendering a promise about literal Israel to be null and void. That is what *in effect* you are doing, from my pov. I've not at all denied that you believe "all Israel will be saved" applies somehow within your own theology.

Yeah, that's your understanding, but I and other Amils disagree with that. I don't see that concept taught anywhere in scripture. That doesn't mean you can imply that I believe God's promises will fail.

I have not once said that Amil teaches God's promises fail! Don't be ridiculous. It is from my vantage point that it appears *to me* that your position denies God's promise concerning literal Israel.

I believe I made my point clear already. If you recall what I said then you can see that I do not interpret it the way you do. Why would you ask what my point is when I already explained it? Just read what I said again and then you will see my point. He was not implying that being resurrected was required in order to be worthy to take part in the age to come. Think about this! That would mean those who are alive when He returns wouldn't be worthy to take part in the age to come because they are not dead and will not be resurrected! Are you sure you want to insist that Jesus was only talking about people who will be resurrected as being worthy to take part in the age to come?

I don't have a clue what you're talking about? Maybe you should read what I've already written on this, because you seem to be unable to see what I was saying?

The people in the present age who are worthy to partake of the age to come are those who are Christians whether they live or die. They will enjoy resurrection from the dead and glorification, being made immortals. Participation in the age to come will be from a position of rule, leaving those on earth not yet worthy of the Kingdom of God to continue living out their lives, becoming Christians or not, just as in the present age.

I never said being resurrected is required to be worthy to be part of the age to come! Where do you get this? I'm afraid you don't comprehend things that I say, and then respond negatively as if you do understand them?

No, He was indicating that the age to come will arrive when this age ends which will be when the dead are resurrected. At that point there will no longer be any marriage or death.

This is the point I was disputing. I agree that there will be no more death for those who are made immortal. But this does not say all people come to the culminating point of eternal judgment before Christ returns.

Matt 10.23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

As it was in Jesus' own time, so it will be before the 2nd Coming. Not all will have heard the Gospel clearly before Christ comes back. They will, I believe, enter into the Millennial Age just as they are, mortals in need of Salvation. Then will be their opportunity to choose, as Christian states are renewed, and the Gospel is preached throughout the earth.

 

[Marty fox]

Have you went to New Jerusalem yet? Have you seen thousands of angels there? But be that as it may, what does that verse have to do with the 'true Israel'? It is a beautiful verse about how our future will be. Let me ask you something. If Mount Zion is New Jerusalem, does that mean there is not also a little old mount zion on earth?

Of course there is a literal mount Zion just like there is a literal Jerusalem.

The church is the new Jerusalem the dwelling with God

Revelation 20:2 & 9-10

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

They did not believe that the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel was set up! Why make stuff up?

You don't seem to know what the Church Fathers believed? In reality, they held different opinions on the AoD. I'm generalizing because most of them, except for perhaps 3, viewed the Olivet Discourse and Daniel's 70th Week as being fulfilled at Christ's 1st Advent, and in the generation immediately following.

This means that if they saw the AoD in Dan 9.27 as the same as the AoD in the Olivet Discourse, then both would have to refer to the same AoD, which nearly all of them saw as the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So why do you make stuff up, brother? Do you have your facts together on this?

Part of the verse does talk about the people of the future prince. That should tell you that it deals with the future also and specifically.

Not one but a couple of rulers are mentioned. The "prince to come" in vss. 26 and 27 refer to a ruler who will destroy "the city and the sanctuary." Verse 27 describes it as an AoD. This can only refer to the pagan Roman armies who assailed Jerusalem and desolated its temple.

Can you name some verses where Jesus referred to Himself as a temple? Specifically a temple where the antichrist in the end time would set up that great evil thing!!?

I told you this isn't referring to the endtimes, but to Christ's 1st Advent! This is not about the Antichrist! Antichrist is *not* the AoD!

Jesus is clearly referred to as a temple in the NT.
John 2.19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
Heb 9.24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

If the abomination of desolation is to be placed (and it is) by that chapter 13 guy, then there is no possible option but that it is talking about that time and guy.

There is nothing in Rev 13 about the Antichrist placing an abomination of desolation in a temple.

All of your claims against my positions thus far as based on fictions that you claim I have. You need to bolster your claims with biblical facts before making them the foundation for your beliefs.

 

[dad]

Of course there is a literal mount Zion just like there is a literal Jerusalem.

The church is the new Jerusalem the dwelling with God

So then what does Heb 12 have to do with the topic? How does that say there is no Israel except Christians?

 

[dad]

You don't seem to know what the Church Fathers believed? In reality, they held different opinions on the AoD. I'm generalizing because most of them, except for perhaps 3, viewed the Olivet Discourse and Daniel's 70th Week as being fulfilled at Christ's 1st Advent, and in the generation immediately following.

Great so 3 had a clue. So?

This means that if they saw the AoD in Dan 9.27 as the same as the AoD in the Olivet Discourse, then both would have to refer to the same AoD, which nearly all of them saw as the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Impossible if they had any idea what the bible said. We know how long there will be when it is placed.

Not one but a couple of rulers are mentioned. The "prince to come" in vss. 26 and 27 refer to a ruler who will destroy "the city and the sanctuary." Verse 27 describes it as an AoD. This can only refer to the pagan Roman armies who assailed Jerusalem and desolated its temple.

Simple. In verse 26 that talks of Romans coming, they are called the people of the prince that will come.

Why? Because that is what they were, soldiers of Rome. The final Prince is head of the revived Roman Empire. It is as head of the world that he confirms that covenant IN THE END. No possible fit to any other time. The so called church fathers you cite were clueless on the issue.

I told you this isn't referring to the endtimes, but to Christ's 1st Advent! This is not about the Antichrist! Antichrist is *not* the AoD!

And it was explained that the abomination Daniel spoke about was in the end time for sure.

Jesus is clearly referred to as a temple in the NT.
John 2.19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

? You do realize He spoke of His body?

There is nothing in Rev 13 about the Antichrist placing an abomination of desolation in a temple.

Why should that particular chapter have to have something about the abomination of desolation? Verse 15 of that chapter does mention what many feel is likely related to the abomination of desolation, that is the image of the beast.
All the world did not worship the dragon that gave power to this man in 70ad!
There was no 42 months involved in 70ad!
No man was given power over all peoples on earth in 70AD!
No man made fire come down from heaven in 70AD!
No image of a man spoke in 70AD!
No one caused all people on earth to receive a mark in 70AD!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Great so 3 had a clue. So?

My point was the the 3 were *not* the norm. You hold to the minority view--so?

Simple. In verse 26 that talks of Romans coming, they are called the people of the prince that will come.

Why? Because that is what they were, soldiers of Rome. The final Prince is head of the revived Roman Empire. It is as head of the world that he confirms that covenant IN THE END. No possible fit to any other time. The so called church fathers you cite were clueless on the issue.

You're entitled to your view.

And it was explained that the abomination Daniel spoke about was in the end time for sure.
? You do realize He spoke of His body?

I think you're "for sure" wrong about the AoD in Dan 9 referring to the endtimes. But what really matters is what Daniel believed--not what you or I think. I have no clue what you mean about somebody's "body?"

Why should that particular chapter have to have something about the abomination of desolation?

It certainly doesn't, but you said it does. How can you prove that if it isn't there?

Verse 15 of that chapter does mention what many feel is likely related to the abomination of desolation, that is the image of the beast.

I only care about what the Bible says, and what people think about that. There is *nothing* in the account of the Beast in Revelation that speaks of the AoD. So you can think about it all you want, but it doesn't exist.

All the world did not worship the dragon that gave power to this man in 70ad!
There was no 42 months involved in 70ad!
No man was given power over all peoples on earth in 70AD!
No man made fire come down from heaven in 70AD!
No image of a man spoke in 70AD!
No one caused all people on earth to receive a mark in 70AD!

So you should draw the obvious conclusion that the 70 AD prophecies had nothing to do with the Antichrist! The Olivet Discourse spoke of the AoD, referring to the Roman Army in the generation of Christ. The book of Revelation and Dan 7 referred to the Antichrist. These are 2 distinct prophecies, and we shouldn't conflate them.

The trouble is, modern prophecy enthusiasts want to make *everything* about the Antichrist, including prophecies that had nothing to do with the Antichrist, including the AoD in the Olivet Discourse. That had nothing to do with the Antichrist or the Beast.

Jesus described the AoD as Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and beginning the punishment of God against Israel for an entire age. Place these things in the right categories, and you will see things properly, I believe. I certainly feel I do.

 

[Marty fox]

So then what does Heb 12 have to do with the topic? How does that say there is no Israel except Christians?

Because when we become Christians either Jew or gentile the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we become apart of the new Jerusalem true Israel.

 

[covenantee]

No they sure are not. His word is here forever and His promises fail not. Prophesy about what happens to Israel in the end is not a will and testament. God said man was under the curse and that was not taken away in the new testament. That is taken away in the new earth. The new will and testament did not take away the curse. It did not take away all the prophesies about the day of the Lord either! The new testament did not render the promises of God to no effect! The new testament did not end Israel being a people and nation. They were a nation for a while back then and are again today. The new testament does not render null and void the promises of God to restore and protect Israel one day. The new testament does not mean there is no Bethlehem of Jerusalem.

The testator reserves the absolute right to write a new will and testament at any time, replacing the previous will and testament in its entirety.

This Christ, the Divine Testator, has done, replacing the promises of the previous old will and testament with the better promises of His New Will and Testament.

The only Israel in His New Will and Testament is the Israel of God, the elect beloved believing remnant saved by grace (Romans 11:5).

Christ's New Will and Testament brought in everlasting righteousness for all who receive it (Daniel 9:24), nullifying the curse and its effects.

The only nation in Christ's New Will and Testament is His Holy Nation of His Church (1 Peter 2:9).

God has given all things into the Hand of His Son (John 13:3). The only Israel recognized by His Son is the Israel comprised of those circumcised of heart, whose praise is not of men but of God. (Romans 2:29). Any other Israel is of the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 3:9).

Get with the program of Christ's New Will and Testament.

 

[dad]

My point was the the 3 were *not* the norm. You hold to the minority view--so?

The bible view is all that matters. If the people you cite knew the bible they would know that once that abomination is set up there is a countdown that starts for 3 and a half years. Since they did not, I would suggest dumping their material.

I think you're "for sure" wrong about the AoD in Dan 9 referring to the endtimes.

No chance. From the time it is set up there shall be....so much time. Period. That rules out thousands of years ago. The fact that the antichrist is not even revealed yet should tell us all we need to know about that.

But what really matters is what Daniel believed--not what you or I think. I have no clue what you mean about somebody's "body?"

The temple Jesus spoke of was His body that He would raise up in 3 days.

It certainly doesn't, but you said it does. How can you prove that if it isn't there?

You raised Rev 13 if I recall.

I only care about what the Bible says, and what people think about that. There is *nothing* in the account of the Beast in Revelation that speaks of the AoD. So you can think about it all you want, but it doesn't exist.

The book of Daniel covers that. Rev 13 just gives more details about the beast.

No one had to face some flood and run for their lives because some abomination was set up by a ruler of the planet etc etc. There was no 42 months or 1260 days involved.

The trouble is, modern prophecy enthusiasts want to make *everything* about the Antichrist, including prophecies that had nothing to do with the Antichrist, including the AoD in the Olivet Discourse. That had nothing to do with the Antichrist or the Beast.

The final leader prophesied about in many books plays a central part in the Tribulation. Including setting up the abomination in the holy place and getting all the world to worship him. Of course unbelievers would minimize that since they do not believe anyhow.

Jesus described the AoD as Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and beginning the punishment of God against Israel for an entire age.

False. He said it was when that abomination Daniel spoke of was set up. No entire age involved at all.

 

[dad]

Because when we become Christians either Jew or gentile the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we become apart of the new Jerusalem true Israel.

We only go there when we die. What has that got to do with all Israel being saved in the end?

 

[covenantee]

We only go there when we die. What has that got to do with all Israel being saved in the end?

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Written in the present tense.

 

[dad]

The testator reserves the absolute right to write a new will and testament at any time, replacing the previous will and testament in its entirety.

Forever O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. All things change but Jesus never. Having prophesies of Jesus fulfilled did not mean all prophesy was now moot. The prophesies of the end and Israel being restored etc are as valid as ever. Promises and prophesy are not wills or testaments.

This Christ, the Divine Testator, has done, replacing the promises of the previous old will and testament with the better promises of His New Will and Testament.

Not one promise was replaced, only some fulfilled! The rest must be fulfilled also, Jesus said, every jot and tittle.

The only Israel in His New Will and Testament is the Israel of God, the elect beloved believing remnant saved by grace (Romans 11:5).

The only Israel forever will be those saved by Jesus. That includes all Israel being saved in the end. That does not mean Good will not do what He siad and restore them when they do get saved.

Christ's New Will and Testament brought in everlasting righteousness for all who receive it (Daniel 9:24), nullifying the curse and its effects.

Well, when He returns He brings in His kingdom to earth forever and everlasting righteousness. There is NO everlasting or any other sort of righteouness on earth today that is brought in. Obviously. The opposite is what the bible says. The days grow more evil.

The only nation in Christ's New Will and Testament is His Holy Nation of His Church (1 Peter 2:9).

False. He rules the nations with the church!

God has given all things into the Hand of His Son (John 13:3). The only Israel recognized by His Son is the Israel comprised of those circumcised of heart, whose praise is not of men but of God. (Romans 2:29). Any other Israel is of the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 3:9).

All Israel has not yet been saved so how could God recognize it now??

 

[dad]

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Written in the present tense.

So you do think you went to heaven with thousands of angels? The context seems to be that, unlike Moses on Mount Sinai who got the law, we have come to another agreement, involving a different mountain. We have the heavenly agreement now, that does not mean we have visited that city yet! It also certainly does not mean that when all Israel does get saved, they are cast away and forsaken!

 

[covenantee]

So you do think you went to heaven with thousands of angels?

So you think that Paul is wrong?

The context seems to be that, unlike Moses on Mount Sinai who got the law, we have come to another agreement, involving a different mountain.

Sure. Like maybe a spiritual mount Sion?

We have the heavenly agreement now, that does not mean we have visited that city yet!

I believe Paul. You don't?

It also certainly does not mean that when all Israel does get saved, they are cast away and forsaken!

There is no mention of Israel in the passage.

 

[covenantee]

Forever O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. All things change but Jesus never. Having prophesies of Jesus fulfilled did not mean all prophesy was now moot. The prophesies of the end and Israel being restored etc are as valid as ever. Promises and prophesy are not wills or testaments.
Not one promise was replaced, only some fulfilled! The rest must be fulfilled also, Jesus said, every jot and tittle.
The only Israel forever will be those saved by Jesus. That includes all Israel being saved in the end. That does not mean Good will not do what He siad and restore them when they do get saved.
Well, when He returns He brings in His kingdom to earth forever and everlasting righteousness. There is NO everlasting or any other sort of righteouness on earth today that is brought in. Obviously. The opposite is what the bible says. The days grow more evil.
False. He rules the nations with the church!
All Israel has not yet been saved so how could God recognize it now??

Your post is misformatted and should be corrected to allow for replies.

 

[dad]

So you think that Paul is wrong?

I don't think he meant that we were sitting with thousands of angels now in the heavens.

Sure. Like maybe a spiritual mount Sion?

Right. We are not physically there yet. Nor is that what it is talking about.

There is no mention of Israel in the passage.

Then it relates to what we were talking about --how?

 

[dad]

Because when we become Christians either Jew or gentile the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we become apart of the new Jerusalem true Israel.

Citizens yes. That is our future city and home. We are not there yet obviously.