22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Eternally Grateful

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Because the context was the destruction of Jerusalem
no. the context was the great tribulation which which is on the whole world

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Matthew 6:10 says, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”

You seem to be trying to employ the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 as support for their belief that the kingdom is to be a future physical temporal kingdom...

You think? ;) And so, you're now prepared to use *other words* to use in place of Jesus' words to explain what he really meant to say?

However, you do err in your basic understanding of the character of the kingdom AND do wrongly interpret this familiar prayer, misapplying the meaning of its wording.

Firstly, we must realise that every other request in this prayer is immediate and current in that it relates to the ‘here and now’. It is also personal and particular in that it has an intimate effect upon the actual individual making the petition. It is therefore a cohesive prayer that is totally and fully achievable in the life of the disciple making it. This prayer in full is therefore evidently answerable and realisable to the child of God in this life.

lol! So you can't just use the words Jesus used--you must explain it in your own words? I thought that was "off limits?"

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer.

Sure there is. They are different sentences--same prayer, but different requests.

Unfortunately, some premillennialists manipulate the passage to make it sound as if it reads ‘Thy kingdom come…in earth, as it is in heaven’ thus conveniently omitting or glossing over the inspired and vital words “Thy will be done” as if they are not in it.

"They will be done" is not part of the request: "Thy Kingdom come." It is a request that the Kingdom come in the future so that God's will can be *fully* done. It is only done partly in this age. The completion of the mission is eschatological, whether you like that term or not. Everybody else understands it.

The simple import of this much-misinterpreted aspect of this prayer...

So Scriptures you wish to disagree with you dismiss as "misinterpreted?" I thought you want only Scriptural statements, and not entire posts rationalizing it away with your own words?

The subject of Christ’s (example) prayer and the specific reference to “kingdom” in that prayer relates to the same spiritual kingdom about which He continually referred to in His earthly ministry.

Jesus spoke of a present manifestation of a "near" Kingdom, but the eschatological Kingdom is not yet here.

That kingdom was not physical as many Jews envisaged but spiritual. It could only be entered in spiritually through the Christian new birth.

That was the same charge early Amills leveled against Premills, trying to associate them with Cerinthus. The material reality of a New Earth does not have to be corrupt. Nor does a Millennial Age replete with people still infected by sin mean that sin is rampaging across the earth in the Millennium!

When we pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” we are praying that “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” would be manifested in us and around us


No, that's ridiculous. When we pray "thy Kingdom come" we're showing our allegiance to a *coming Kingdom.* We're showing that we're trying to live for it today, so that we will enjoy its coming in the future.
 
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WPM

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I find the Revelation lays out it's own chronology, letting us know what comes before/after what, telling us parts that are paranthetical, and giving common points of reference between various portions of the narrative.

Yes, I realize, it's not a single sequence of events start to finish. But as with everything else concerning the Bible, I find that all the details are contained there in the text, in the terms used, only, you have to accept what they actually say.

The Bible is its own authority.

Much love!

Contrary to what many seem to think, Revelation is not written in such a cryptic manner that it is impossible to dissect. Everything necessary for understanding this book (including the terms used, the symbols utilized, and the recapitulation format) is contained within the actual text.

I agree, Revelation is definitely not a single unfolding sequence of historic events from start to finish. It is not chorological. I agree with you that Revelation lays out its own chronology, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.

The apocalypse generally presents metaphorical pictures of the intra-Advent period culminating in the glorious return of Christ. This is shown from different camera views. Each parallel addresses different aspects of the overall supernatural battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

It is a victorious book. The whole focus is Christ, and what He achieved on our behalf, and how He now exercises sovereign dominion over Satan and the powers of darkness today.
 
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marks

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I know that, silly. I wasn't asking for a definition of the word veracity. I just wanted to know what you meant by "the veracity of narrative prophecy".
I hope then that you've satisfied your self that I meant what the words themself mean.

Much love!
 

WPM

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That was the same charge early Amills leveled against Premills, trying to associate them with Cerinthus. The material reality of a New Earth does not have to be corrupt. Nor does a Millennial Age replete with people still infected by sin mean that sin is rampaging across the earth in the Millennium!

· Do you believe time continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
 

WPM

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You think? ;) And so, you're now prepared to use *other words* to use in place of Jesus' words to explain what he really meant to say?



lol! So you can't just use the words Jesus used--you must explain it in your own words? I thought that was "off limits?"



Sure there is. They are different sentences--same prayer, but different requests.



"They will be done" is not part of the request: "Thy Kingdom come." It is a request that the Kingdom come in the future so that God's will can be *fully* done. It is only done partly in this age. The completion of the mission is eschatological, whether you like that term or not. Everybody else understands it.



So Scriptures you wish to disagree with you dismiss as "misinterpreted?" I thought you want only Scriptural statements, and not entire posts rationalizing it away with your own words?



Jesus spoke of a present manifestation of a "near" Kingdom, but the eschatological Kingdom is not yet here.



That was the same charge early Amills leveled against Premills, trying to associate them with Cerinthus. The material reality of a New Earth does not have to be corrupt. Nor does a Millennial Age replete with people still infected by sin mean that sin is rampaging across the earth in the Millennium!




No, that's ridiculous. When we pray "thy Kingdom come" we're showing our allegiance to a *coming Kingdom.* We're showing that we're trying to live for it today, so that we will enjoy its coming in the future.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. It is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It relates to all those who belong to His body. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are real believers. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that kingdom.

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendor, impressive power and magnitude. It is, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which can only be spiritually entered.
 
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WPM

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That was the same charge early Amills leveled against Premills, trying to associate them with Cerinthus. The material reality of a New Earth does not have to be corrupt. Nor does a Millennial Age replete with people still infected by sin mean that sin is rampaging across the earth in the Millennium!

Cerinthus was the founder of modern-day Premil. Ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern-day Premil.
 

covenantee

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Then we're at an impasse on this? I don't understand praying for something one already has!

It's called giving thanks.

Save your crocodile tears! ;)

The point is, brother, I've differentiated between legal deliverance and final deliverance, and you're bypassing that. We were legally delivered at the cross.

But in our own personal history, we still need to *apply* that legal deliverance. And our final deliverance is not effected until the resurrection to immortality.

We do experience a measure of deliverance in the present age. But final deliverance remains future and eschatological.

You've differentiated, brother, but Scripture hasn't.

Colossians 1:13 tells me that I'm delivered.

I believe it, and I am.
 

covenantee

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;) yea, right--if I don't agree with your position, I want to go to Hell! lol!

Seriously, the question then is about whether the Kingdom of Christ is an already-existent spiritual reality? Well yes, that's true.

I just believe that the Scriptures distinguish between a present manifestation of the Kingdom and the eschatological manifestation of the Kingdom. What we are experiencing now is not the eschatological Kingdom, but only things that the Kingdom causes us to experience while it is still only "near," and in heaven.

And yes, the Kingdom of God can be "in heaven" and still impact us presently on the earth. That is how I believe the Scriptures describe it--as "near," and not yet "here."

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Kingdom is everlasting, so it will be eschatological as well.

But it's also been here for a long time already.
 

covenantee

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Is Satan bound?
Is Jesus ruling with a rod of iron?

if you believe the above are true today. You must not read the news.. Satan is still decieving the nations. And Jesus is not ruling with the rod. Nations are still against nation, kingdon is still against kingdom. the end is not yet

I get truth from Scripture.

The news does not change it.
 

marks

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This is typical apocalyptic-type language, which expresses God's overwhelming victory over His enemies. The problem is, He used the same language of past battles, and there was no end to sin on earth. It's simply a language type, indicating overwhelming destruction takes place against God's enemies. It is decisive--that's all it means.
He will kill His enemies, but not everyone will be His enemy.

Much love!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Kingdom is everlasting, so it will be eschatological as well.

But it's also been here for a long time already.
the kingdom (church) has been here since the day of pentecost.

The kingdom (Messianic rule) has yet to arrive.

Jesus read from a scrol part of an Old Testament messianic prophesy. He stopped in the middle of it. And said what he read is fulfilled

the part that came after will be fulfilled also. Until this day, they have yet to be fulfilled.

We interpret prophecy with prophecy in my view. If the first advent and prophecy concerning that is literal. then the prophecy concerning the 2nd advent will be literal

If part of daniels prophecies concerning nations is literal. The completion of those prophecies will be literal
 

WPM

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true

But you can't look at the news and all the evil in the world and claim that Satan is bound and Jesus is ruling with a rod of Iron.

The only way that your argument can be sustained is by ignoring the biblical evidence. The teaching of Revelation 20 in regard to the binding of Satan is inextricably linked to the Gospel expansion. You cannot divorce the two. This corresponds with countless New Testament Scriptures. Satan has been bound since the First Advent. The Premil theory enjoys zero corroboration on all its main tenets. That is because their understanding and placement of Revelation 20 is faulty. They fail to interpret Scripture with Scripture. This is what divides Amil from Premil. Yes, Jesus is sovereignly reigning today with a rod of iron over all His enemies. He will destroy His enemies when He comes. None will survive.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
 

WPM

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We interpret prophecy with prophecy in my view. If the first advent and prophecy concerning that is literal. then the prophecy concerning the 2nd advent will be literal

Really?

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?
 
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Timtofly

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When you say "destroyed" you mean cast into the lake of fire, right? If Premill was true, then obviously any believers who died during the thousand years would need to be resurrected after the thousand years, so I'm not sure why any Premill would believe otherwise.
No one dies during the Millennium. That is the whole point of them not being mortals. Mortals implies death. They are righteous and "shine as the sun" meaning there is no limit to their lives, period. When they have offspring, the offspring are not mortals either. There are no mortals born, period. If a young person decides to rebel, they are considered cursed and they are placed in Death, which is a location separate from life on earth. It is not rehab. It is not a prison. It is not being sent immediately through time to the GWT judgment. It is Death, which is dealt with at the GWT.

Like sheol since Adam's physical death, it is a place where the souls of those who rejected God wait for time to pass. That Death is the last enemy, not sheol. In Revelation 20:5 those dead are still waiting in sheol, like they have since before the Flood of Noah's day. They were not let out of sheol, at the Cross when those from Abraham's bosom were physically resurrected. Sheol was defeated at the Cross. That was the death defeated in the first century. Even Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus and came forth out of his grave. Are you going to say that Scripture contradicts John 5? Because the hour already was present when Lazarus came out of his grave? That is why Jesus said that hour was already here. Lazarus came forth. At the Cross all of Abraham's bosom came out of their graves physically. They are not waiting for some hour in the future, nor did the wicked come out either.

I know you apply that as strictly spiritual limiting the full affect of that resurrection. But when you receive your permanent incorruptible physical body, you will understand the full power of that resurrection. If you tell God, you will wait until the GWT to get that body, your longsuffering may be granted, or not.

You all limit Jesus as the Resurrection and the Life, because you demand that Jesus plays by your rules that all the dead are resurrected at the same hour. Your interpretation contradicts Scripture that states other times of resurrection. You reject the point, Jesus made:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

This verse does not state a single hour for both the wicked and the righteous. In fact it states an ongoing physical resurrection, because after the Cross, all the redeemed no longer taste death. Leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh is a resurrection into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That was proven in Lazarus, and all in Abraham's bosom at the Cross. One who is born from above by the Holy Spirit, only is mortal in this body. They no longer have to walk through the valley of the shadow of death as did David and all in Abraham's bosom. Paradise was opened at the Cross, along with direct access to the Holy of Holies. You all know and quote the verses. You just follow Amil bias to interpret them.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The only way that your argument can be sustained is by ignoring the biblical evidence. The teaching of Revelation 20 in regard to the binding of Satan is inextricably linked to the Gospel expansion.

My friend, you have now said this twice.

Please show me in rev 20 where the gospel is mentioned (remember, there was no chapter verse division when the letter was written. so you are free to go back to chapter 19 to prove your point

You cannot divorce the two. This corresponds with countless New Testament Scriptures. Satan has been bound since the First Advent. The Premil theory enjoys zero corroboration on all its main tenets. That is because their understanding and placement of Revelation 20 is faulty. They fail to interpret Scripture with Scripture. This is what divides Amil from Premil. Yes, Jesus is sovereignly reigning today with a rod of iron over all His enemies. He will destroy His enemies when He comes. None will survive.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Until you show me where in chapter 19 and 20 the gospel message is in context, I can and will do so.

because you have failed to give me a reason to do otherwise..

The floor is yours.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Really?

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
the passage itself speaks of 2 distinct ressurections

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

they were killed and now live and reign thats a ressurection

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

here is the second. I do not have to go to the rest of scripture. it is there in black and white. The only reason you would have to go elswhere is because your belief does not fit what is said.

we are talking about rev 20. Lets get this first.. I am not playing your game.

Its as bad as another person who says when John said if we say we have son sin, John was not talking about himself. We have to go to the rest of scripture to prove he did not talk about himself.

show me IN THE PASSAGE. where there is only 1 resurrection.
 
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