The Pre-Trib Rapture

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marks

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Then you need to overlay the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with the 6th seal.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The sixth seal . . . the moon is blood. Jesus returns, the moon is dark.

(Yes, it's long . . . as I'm reading through I want to interject a few comments while I'm assimilating your view, but I'm not trying to take potshots or something like that . . .)

Another distinction is that at the sixth seal, the mountains and islands are moved from their location, but in the great earthquake before Jesus comes, the mountains and islands are gone.

In the first instance, I think the earth's axis/orbit is altered, probably returning the world to a 360 day year.

Much love!
 

marks

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Two harvests means two raptures, just like it says. Nothing made up, nothing dreamed up. Straight from the Word of God.
I don't call it two raptures, but I do agree, the church is brought into heaven, then later the 144,000 are.

Have you ever looked at Matthew 10, Jesus' instructions to His disciples when He sent them out, in relation to the 144,000?

This part to the disciples,

Matthew 10:5-15 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10) Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12) And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13) And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This part to the Apostles,

Matthew 10:16-20 KJV
16) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18) And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

This part to the 144,000,

Matthew 10:21-25 KJV
21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

This part to those persecuted in the Great Tribulation,

Matthew 10:26-39 KJV
26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

This part to the same, those in Great Tribulation, concerning the sheep/goats judgment, and what you are to do while in Great Tribulation,

Matthew 10:40-42 KJV
40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Thoughts?

Much love!
 

Davy

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Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

My point from my earlier post, was how some wrongly believe that EXCLUDES THE SEED OF ISRAEL.

I very much believe it is about Christ's separating HIS CHURCH from the wicked. And of course Christ's Church includes believers from ALL nations, NOT JUST GENTILE NATIONS. Thus the seed of Israel is included in that, and are separated on either one side or the other. Or did you not know there are many of the seed of Israel that are members of Christ's Church?
 

marks

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My point from my earlier post, was how some wrongly believe that EXCLUDES THE SEED OF ISRAEL.

I very much believe it is about Christ's separating HIS CHURCH from the wicked. And of course Christ's Church includes believers from ALL nations, NOT JUST GENTILE NATIONS. Thus the seed of Israel is included in that, and are separated on either one side or the other. Or did you not know there are many of the seed of Israel that are members of Christ's Church?
In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. So the Church is not "nationally designated", "Jewish believers", "Greek believers", like that.

According to Jesus' prophecy, when He returns in power and glory, first, all Israel will be gathered to the promised land, and then, when He takes His throne, all the nations - gentiles - will be gathered and be judged.

Firstly, you either believe this is true as stated, or not true as stated. If not true as stated, then you must supply what you think it means otherwise, and that's when things get complicated, because different people have different ideas about that.

But why would this NOT be true as stated? That's the real question. Why do you not believe Jesus actually meant the exact things He said?

And if it IS true as stated, we suddenly come to unity if we believe it.

Much love!
 

Davy

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Yes, but I can quote your entire posts if you like.

No, just quote the whole sentence, unless it has to be understood in conjunction with a paragraph, etc., or with a Scripture quote. The proper way is it has to stay in the context of where it appeared.

When I don't quote whole paragraphs or sections of someone's quote, you'll notice I put an ellipsis (....) of 4 dots, which shows there was more there that I did not quote. An ellipsis of just 3 dots (...) usually represents a skipped section within a sentence, like "She said no, but ..., and yet she still said it." I don't particularly like doing that, because it is easy to misuse and take someone's words out context.
 

Timtofly

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I don't.
Why would God allow the Zionist's to form a nation, with their communist agenda, their atheism, their reliance in their own strength, etc?
The Jewish State of Israel is the budding of the fig tree, as prophesied. Note the Jews never produce fruit.....Matthew 21:43
Over 20 prophesies tell of their Judgment and punishment and only a remnant will survive.

Israel is a Satanic construct, that the Lord will soon remove, along with all the evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14
THEN the true, faithful Overcomers for the Lord, His real Israelite peoples, will go to and live in all of the holy Land.
Great will be the Day! Zephaniah 3:9-10
Because the blooming of the fig tree was the sign of the generation that would see all those things fulfilled.

Being a fig tree does not equate to being righteous or perfect. Jesus is not the fig tree. Israel is the fig tree. Obviously you have no issue with Jesus cursing the fig tree, so it would never produce fruit again. Israel bloomed when God planned Israel to bloom.

If Israel had become a nation in the 14th or 15th century, we may have issues with the OD. You don't think that is what the crusades were for? They failed. It took 2 world wars to shake things up. I never claimed God caused 2 world wars. I pointed out God let things happen, no matter who attempted what. The poster literally said God had nothing whatsoever to do with 1948. Really? God is not sovereign and in control? Who is then?
 

marks

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My point from my earlier post, was how some wrongly believe that EXCLUDES THE SEED OF ISRAEL.

I very much believe it is about Christ's separating HIS CHURCH from the wicked. And of course Christ's Church includes believers from ALL nations, NOT JUST GENTILE NATIONS. Thus the seed of Israel is included in that, and are separated on either one side or the other. Or did you not know there are many of the seed of Israel that are members of Christ's Church?

And who is the "elect" gathered in Matthew 24?

Much love!
 

marks

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The proper way is it has to stay in the context of where it appeared.
I figure you know what you where saying, so a reference is enough. I'm not playing games with you, as some do. I know there are many who will take snippet, then make it sound like something it's not, seeking unfair advantage. I'm not interested in that. Just to say.

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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All scripture below shows the second coming

Revelation 19 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

2 Peter 3:10 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

Revelation 20:9 is the second coming, it mentions the fire
Revelation 19 and 20 are not the Second Coming. The other Scriptures are. Your, taught opinionated facts have mislead you in the wrong direction. Primarily the taught point that in no way, God can have a Sabbath rest of 1,000 years from sin and death by sin. That is not pushing the teaching of Sabbath. That is Remembering what a Sabbath Day represents. After 6,000 years of Adam's punishment, the earth gets a Day with the Lord in perfection without sin and Satan. The Last Day of this creation belongs to God, not sinful humans. That Day you teach - cannot exist. It will exist. God has declared that Day since the first century. Nothing has happened in the last 1922 years to change that point.
 
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Davy

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The Bible plainly states in both NT and OT that when Jesus returns, He first gathers Israel to the promised land, and then gathers the nations to be judged. This is not "a Jewish idea" any more or less than anything else in the Bible is a "Jewish idea". Actually, I hope it is, so they will be agreed with Scripture.

The one's on His right don't "represent" someone, they ARE someone. The gentile nations, gathered for judgment, when Jesus comes in power and glory.

Much love!

The "sheep" in Matthew 25 represent His Church of both believing Israelite, and believing Gentile, period.

The goats on the left hand represent the unbelieving, of either the seed of Israel, or the Gentile. You assume too much with thinking that all the seed of Israel will be gathered by Christ, and forget what Jesus showed in Matthew 7 and Matthew 8:11-13. The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture shows the wicked outside the holy city, while those in Christ will have right to enter inside the gates of the holy and city and have access to the Tree of Life. That area outside the gates represents the "outer darkness" of Matthew 8:12.
 

marks

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No, just quote the whole sentence, unless it has to be understood in conjunction with a paragraph, etc., or with a Scripture quote. The proper way is it has to stay in the context of where it appeared.

When I don't quote whole paragraphs or sections of someone's quote, you'll notice I put an ellipsis (....) of 4 dots, which shows there was more there that I did not quote. An ellipsis of just 3 dots (...) usually represents a skipped section within a sentence, like "She said no, but ..., and yet she still said it." I don't particularly like doing that, because it is easy to misuse and take someone's words out context.
Mostly I like to get past the metacommunication and get to the heart of things. I'll try to keep in mind your requests.

Much love!
 

marks

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The "sheep" in Matthew 25 represent His Church of both believing Israelite, and believing Gentile, period.

The goats on the left hand represent the unbelieving, of either the seed of Israel, or the Gentile. You assume too much with thinking that all the seed of Israel will be gathered by Christ, and forget what Jesus showed in Matthew 7 and Matthew 8:11-13. The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture shows the wicked outside the holy city, while those in Christ will have right to enter inside the gates of the holy and city and have access to the Tree of Life. That area outside the gates represents the "outer darkness" of Matthew 8:12.

So then when are they gathered? Matthew 24? Matthew 25?

There are two gatherings, one of "the chosen", and one of "the nations". They are described differently, their timing is different, and both are attested to by several OT prophecies.

I don't think I'm assuming anything other than that the words mean what they say.

Much love!

PS . . . I'm hoping it works for you that I am "bolding" the exact part I'm replying about.
 

marks

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The "sheep" in Matthew 25 represent His Church of both believing Israelite, and believing Gentile, period.

The goats on the left hand represent the unbelieving, of either the seed of Israel, or the Gentile. You assume too much with thinking that all the seed of Israel will be gathered by Christ, and forget what Jesus showed in Matthew 7 and Matthew 8:11-13. The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture shows the wicked outside the holy city, while those in Christ will have right to enter inside the gates of the holy and city and have access to the Tree of Life. That area outside the gates represents the "outer darkness" of Matthew 8:12.

I just noticed this . . . you are of the mind that not all the surviving Israelites will be saved when Jesus returns?

Much love!
 

Davy

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In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. So the Church is not "nationally designated", "Jewish believers", "Greek believers", like that.

Sorry, but you're wrong about that, and it's easy to prove. Otherwise Lord Jesus would not have promised His 12 Apostles that in His future Kingdom they each would sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel. That's an example of a promise He specifically reserved for the Apostles, of the seed of Israel, and not to Gentile believers. And the Gentiles nations will still... exist in His future Kingdom after His coming, or didn't you ever read the end of Isaiah 19, and Zechariah 14?


According to Jesus' prophecy, when He returns in power and glory, first, all Israel will be gathered to the promised land, and then, when He takes His throne, all the nations - gentiles - will be gathered and be judged.

No, not true. Jesus shuts the door on the five foolish virgins, don't you remember the first part of Matthew 25? And per Matthew 8:11-12, He showed the seed of Israel that were chosen which refused Him, will NOT be gathered under Him, but will be cast to the "outer darkness"...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

KJV

What you ought to do is dig deeper into God's Word on this matter instead of listening to crept in Judaizers who try to pump theirselves up over Gentiles.
 

marks

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No, not true. Jesus shuts the door on the five foolish virgins, don't you remember the first part of Matthew 25? And per Matthew 8:11-12, He showed the seed of Israel that were chosen which refused Him, will NOT be gathered under Him, but will be cast to the "outer darkness"...
So then you treat the parable of the virgins as allegory? Each part is code for something? A parable is a familiar story told to impart a truth.

If you treat them as allegory, what when you come to "the parable of the unjust judge"? You end up with God being unjust. They don't work that way.

Much love!
 

marks

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What you ought to do is dig deeper into God's Word on this matter instead of listening to crept in Judaizers who try to pump theirselves up over Gentiles.
You assume what is not true.

Much love!
 

Davy

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So then when are they gathered? Matthew 24? Matthew 25?

There are two gatherings, one of "the chosen", and one of "the nations". They are described differently, their timing is different, and both are attested to by several OT prophecies.

There's that tradition of men I was pointing to earlier regarding that Matthew 25 sheep/goats idea. That's an idea from men that completely omits other Scripture to the contrary.

Christ's "sheep" represent His Church, and that includes believing Israel.

It's the false tradition of Hyper-Dispensationalism (or Hyper-Grace some call it), that tries to separate Israel and Gentiles into two separate bodies. No, not written. And John Darby who started preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Britain is who started that Dispensationalist separation idea. There is NO SUCH THING as a Gentile only Church, nor an Israelite only Church, nor separate gatherings of each.
 

marks

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Sorry, but you're wrong about that, and it's easy to prove. Otherwise Lord Jesus would not have promised His 12 Apostles that in His future Kingdom they each would sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel. That's an example of a promise He specifically reserved for the Apostles, of the seed of Israel, and not to Gentile believers. And the Gentiles nations will still... exist in His future Kingdom after His coming, or didn't you ever read the end of Isaiah 19, and Zechariah 14?

Exactly! The 12 Apostles will sit on twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

In the church, the body of Christ, are neither Jew nor Greek. But when Jesus comes, everyone is separated into 3 groups, the chosen, the righteous from the nations, and the unrighteous from the nations. The chosen, and the nations.

In Christ, the Body of Christ, the church, these don't fit at that time. Rather than change the words to fit the ideas, change the ideas to fit the words.

Much love!
 

marks

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There's that tradition of men I was pointing to earlier regarding that Matthew 25 sheep/goats idea. That's an idea from men that completely omits other Scripture to the contrary.
NO. It's taking a literal reading of a prophetic narrative. If we continue with this long enough, I'll be able to show you how these all harmonize, and we'll be able to accept the readings and sayings of the Bible "as is".

Much love!
 

Davy

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I just noticed this . . . you are of the mind that not all the surviving Israelites will be saved when Jesus returns?

Much love!

That's right, not ALL of the seed of Israel will be saved by Christ when He returns, or did you not read the following of what Jesus said...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

KJV

So you think that being cast to the "outer darkness" means being saved by Jesus??? I hope you don't think that.

Sounds like you might need to review what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about many of his brethren the Jews that God blinded away from The Gospel, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul said that blindness won't be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which means on the day of Christ's future return.

Thus even among the seed of Israel when Jesus comes, there will be a separation between the believer and the unbeliever, just as with Gentiles also.