The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Friend, the answer to this lies in recognizing the difference between the "Just Man" and the "Presumptuous Man".

The Just Man sometimes slips and falls down into the pit of sin, but once there he cries out to Jesus Who then lifts him up, wipes him down, and sets him back on the Path of the Just. Proverbs 28:13 KJV says there's inexhaustible grace for this man, and he will reach his heavenly destination.

The Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit, clears away a spot and sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes a OSAS License to Sin in His face. Psalms 19:13 KJV says this man will go straight to hell, all the while thinking he's walking the Path to heaven.

And what does any of that have to do with keeping the sabbath on Saturday or not? Nothing. You think I have the mark of the beast just because I don't believe the sabbath commandment applies to New Testament believers? I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior and surrender my life to Him, but I'm going to hell if I'm mistaken in my understanding of the sabbath? That's ludicrous. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not by grace through keeping the sabbath.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I believe the Sabbath was a shadow of the things that were to come. Now, we rest in Christ every day.

Hebrews 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Again, if I happened to be mistaken about this, that means I'm going to hell? Where does scripture teach such a thing?

 

[covenantee]

Without question, they are different perspectives of the same judgment...the wrath of God.


Armageddon.

I thought you would ask me how I know that the 144,000 are part of the great multitude and are sealed in the 1st four seals and do not go through the wrath of God.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[ewq1938]

If I say that Satan looks like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns does that mean I'm in line with what the text says?

If you claim it's his literal appearance you are not in line with what it says just like not being in line when claiming a sword out of his mouth equals fire from heaven. So, Christ comes out of heaven and a sword comes out of his mouth but we are supposed to believe both are somehow fire? Does Christ come out of heaven or does fire come out of heaven? Does a sword come out of his mouth or does fire come out of his mouth? Is Christ the fire or does it come from his mouth? Amillennialism's bad interpretation here and in Revelation 20 causes so many contradictions and problems.

 

[The Light]

Like I said, there is a lot, and I'm interested in your view.

My thinking is that the 144,000 are on earth for the first half of the week, and are then translated into heaven. I have the barest evidence of that, to be sure, it's just what makes sense to me.

I think the great multitude before the throne is the raptured church, seen in heaven as the 144,000 are sealed on the earth. John's use of ek and apo, he uses one for the other in a number of places, and if this passage is one where he used the other word, it can mean, "these are they who have come away from the great tribulation". And the placement makes a lot of sense to me also.

Tell me about the 144,000, what are your thoughts?

Much love!

Marks. Nobody reads long posts. But if you force youself through this, it might make some sense.
Part 1

The 144,000 are exactly what God says they are. They are not the Church or all of Israel or any other nonsense, they are exactly what God says they are. They are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel and they are first fruits that are redeemed from the earth.

I already posted this verse....

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. That means that God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But since they served other Gods, they would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles would be the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. So the mostly Gentile Church will be the first harvest, hence the pre tribulation or pre 70th week rapture. So after the Church is raptured, what happens. We have first fruits of Israel.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Since there will be first fruits of the twelve tribes, that means that there will be a harvest of the twelve tribes. What most don't understand is that there will be two raptures. That why some people have proof that the rapture is after the tribulation and others have proof that the rapture will be before the tribulation. They are both correct. Pre trib rapture of the Church before the seals are opened and pre wrath rapture of the 12 tribes at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God. Only the nation of Israel, those that have fled to the place of protection and unbelievers will go through the wrath of God. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

As for the 144,000, most people think they are sealed after the 6th seal and go through the wrath of God because of this verse.

Rev 9
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God, which we can prove if we understand some things. If you take Matthew 24 you can overlay it on the seals. In other words, what Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 is exactly what John tells us in the seals.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The beginning of sorrows are the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Then you have the great tribulation in Matthew 24. This is the 5th seal.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Then you need to overlay the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

You should be able to conclude that immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes to the clouds and sends his angels to gather the elect, and this occurs at the 6th seal. So there is a rapture at the 6th seal and it is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. They are the seed of the woman Israel.
(Israel, those in protection, go through the wrath)

Then the wrath of God begins. The trumpets happen in order and at the 7th trumpet, the wrath of God is over. We can prove that because when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon is over and Jesus has returned.

 

[The Light]

Part 2
Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We can prove the wrath of God is over with the 7th angel.....here

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is finished. What you read in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.

We have 144,000 first fruits, in Rev 14, meaning there will be a harvest. And since the 144,000 are of the twelve tribes, the harvest will be of the 12 tribes.

Reading along in Rev 14, we come to the great tribulation.


Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This puts us at the 5th seal. So getting back to the 144,000 we see they are redeemed from the earth earlier in Rev 14.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So that tells us that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the 5th seal and DO NOT go through the wrath of God. Also when we see the great multitude in heaven in revelation 7, we know that the 144,000 are first fruits of that harvest and are therfore part of the great multitude.

Next, we have the coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

This is the same coming of Jesus that occurs at the 6th seal, and Matthew 24. This occurs before the wrath of God.

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And can we prove that it is the 12 tribes that are raptured from the earth in the second harvest? Sure.

Rev 15
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They are singing the song of Moses so they are obviously of the 12 tribes.

Two harvests means two raptures, just like it says. Nothing made up, nothing dreamed up. Straight from the Word of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly decapitates and futurizes the second half of the 70th week, along with Messiah's identity as the Prince. He's got the first half right, but not the second.

Matthew 25:31 is an earthly throne in an earthly temple built by the Prince. Gabriel decapitates the week as well. The Messiah was cut off. The Prince will come. It is all there. The Prince to come has yet to arrive to the Mount of Olives.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

I do not see Jesus in the news nor history sitting on a throne in Jerusalem as Prince. So the week cannot finish until Jesus as Prince or King is sitting on that throne. And Jesus said:

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

So the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the shorter that second half gets. Then when Daniel's 70th week is finished, the Millennium will start. Jesus will rule from that throne for 1,000 years. Jesus and God decapitates that last half even more.

Then more people will be decapitated, if Satan is given 42 months. In fact the only reason that Satan gets 42 months is that some on earth will choose decapitation instead of the mark to remain in the Lamb's book of life.

Do you think Jesus understood when He said:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

it would be when the Son of man shall come in His Glory? Was He talking about Himself as Prince at a Second Coming, or when He ascended a few months later?

 

[n2thelight]

Why change then if no one is dead?

All of Adam's flesh is dead flesh. It is corruptible. Jesus does not change all flesh, that is the false doctrine of universalism.

The only ones resurrected at the Second Coming are those alive on earth who profess to be in Christ, and then only God knows one's heart, better than they do. They are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Paul calls that change and resurrection at the same time. Paul says the whole church will be changed by the time of the Second Coming. Paul is already changed enjoying Paradise.

The soul is who we are, the software in the hardware. The software can be more corrupt than the physical body. The body only does what the soul demands. The body does not drive the soul. The soul drives the body.

We change because we are in our flesh bodies at the return of Christ ,those who have already died changed at the time they died .

The flesh does drive the soul, do you get hungry , do you sin , do you get sick

 

[Timtofly]

So, He will just come in flaming fire as a threat to His enemies while He somehow uses a SYMBOLIC sword to LITERALLY kill them?

So is the fire in Revelation 20:9 then symbolic of a sword? It works both ways, no?

You are the one trying to call two different events the same event. 2 Peter 3 is not talking about Revelation 19 nor Revelation 20. 2 Peter 3 is about the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6, and then we wait for Revelation 21.

Revelation 19 and 20 take place somewhere in time between 6 and 21.

 

[Timtofly]

What are you saying, that you disagree that there will be a mass falling away before Christ's return? If so, then tell me how you interpret 2 Thess 2:1-3.

Most of those calling themselves Christians or the church, have seem pretty fallen away for decades. How much further can the church apostasize?

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 25:31 is an earthly throne in an earthly temple built by the Prince. Gabriel decapitates the week as well. The Messiah was cut off. The Prince will come. It is all there. The Prince to come has yet to arrive to the Mount of Olives.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

I do not see Jesus in the news nor history sitting on a throne in Jerusalem as Prince. So the week cannot finish until Jesus as Prince or King is sitting on that throne. And Jesus said:

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

So the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the shorter that second half gets. Then when Daniel's 70th week is finished, the Millennium will start. Jesus will rule from that throne for 1,000 years. Jesus and God decapitates that last half even more.

Then more people will be decapitated, if Satan is given 42 months. In fact the only reason that Satan gets 42 months is that some on earth will choose decapitation instead of the mark to remain in the Lamb's book of life.

Do you think Jesus understood when He said:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

it would be when the Son of man shall come in His Glory? Was He talking about Himself as Prince at a Second Coming, or when He ascended a few months later?

Messiah always was and is the Prince.

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Acts 3
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm going to say it again: God had nothing to do with the events of 1948, but y'know who did? The U.S., the Papacy, and the occult societies which were in charge then just as they're in charge today. What better way to solidify Jesuit Futurism in the minds of "protestants" than to "reestablish Israel in the land", the planning of which goes back to 1870's Albert Pike, the leader of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Check out "Pikes 3 World Wars" and you'll see it's true.

I can't throw God and His Word out the window, and refuse to acknowledge the condition God Himself imposed upon Israel concerning the gathering of them back to the land after they'd been scattered for disobedience: repentance.

Still does not answer the question about the fig tree blooming.

Would you say God literally had nothing to do with the formation of the US either. Do you pick and choose based on a percentage of evil people involved?

My point was not even if God was involved or not. God is the Sovereign over all creation. He allows everything to happen, good or bad. My point is the fig tree bloomed.

Should Israel have not become a Nation until after the Second Coming?

 

[Timtofly]

This is complete nonsense. If you can't even discern that Revelation 19 depicts the second coming, then I'm not sure what you can discern.

Obviously that is the most obvious coming. So it cannot be the Second Coming, since the Second Coming is the one that no one can point to as the one. The point that Jesus said He would return when ye think not, obviously means that Revelation 19 is ruled out. That is when most today think it will happen. Revelation 19 will happen 42 months after Satan starts sitting on Christ the King's throne. How can there be a throne to sit on before Jesus even shows up? You have your chronology all backwards, or time travel figured in somehow.

That list showing every last one on earth is not them hiding in the caves and under rocks in Revelation 19. They are all killed immediately in Revelation 19.

They are hiding in the 6th Seal, because that is the Second Coming. No one was prepared.


In Revelation 19 all 10 nations are prepared and marched to Armageddon to fight with Satan for 1 hour. No marching or preparing at the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. There is no warning to prepare at the Second Coming.

Revelation 19 is to the valley of Megiddo. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is to the Mount of Olives. No angels are mentioned to harvest souls at Armageddon, just the birds feasting on the bodies. The souls go to Death the normal way. At the Second Coming in Revelation 6, the angels come to earth as symbolized by the stars, just as Jesus declared the Second Coming in the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus sets up the throne at the Second Coming, before the 42 months. Jesus returns in Revelation 19 to oust Satan from that throne.

 

[Timtofly]

Have you ever heard of ships sailing "through" rough seas? That same water you claim lifted Noah "up" was also crashing down all around him, above him, over from one side to the other of him, inundating him.

As I said, God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above the destruction up there, and God will preserve the saints "through" the time of trouble because Jesus already asked the Father not to take us out of this world, but "keep" us just as He safely kept Noah, Daniel, Israel, and the rest down here in the midst of danger.

I mean, which is a better demonstration of God's preserving power? I don't believe for one minute Samson was a muscle-bound freak of nature: guaranteed he looked like a 90 pound weakling so God could get all the glory and credit.

Yet you don't give God any credit for Israel becoming a nation?

 

[Taken]

Have you ever heard of ships sailing "through" rough seas?

Sure. We’ve had a sailboat. Wind and Turbulent winds always a factor of consideration.
For reference point size of vessel.
Ours about 40ft with a below cabin, requiring some wind.
Noah’s about 443ft 3 story, with no wind mentioned for 150 days.
Size; Gen 6:15

That same water you claim lifted Noah "up" was also crashing down all around him, above him, over from one side to the other of him, inundating him.

I referenced Gen 7 as the account per Scripture. Nothing about going “through” rough seas. Nothing about turbulent winds.

It is not my claim about Noah being “lifted up Above the Earth”, it is a claim In Scripture.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

How High Above did Noah’s Ark go UP above the Earth?
Gen 7:
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Fifteen cubits; approx 22+ feet above the mountain tops.

After 150 days, God caused a WIND. Nothing about purpose of the WIND to cause Noah’s Ark to be tossed to and fro.
Purpose of WIND, was to “sweep, abate, assuage” the Water OFF the face of the earth.

Gen 8:
[1] And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
[2] The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
[3] And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
[4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
[5] And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

As I said, God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above the destruction up there, and God will preserve the saints "through" the time of trouble because Jesus already asked the Father not to take us out of this world, but "keep" us just as He safely kept Noah, Daniel, Israel, and the rest down here in the midst of danger.

Sure. God preserves saints “through” times of trouble UPON the Earth.

Point Being; According to Scripture;
There was nothing about Rough seas, Wind causing Noah’s Ark to experience what we know large ships have experienced Because of severe weather Conditions.
* God Controls the Weather.
(Job 5:10 ~ 23:26 ~ 37:10 /Pss 135:7 ~ 147:16)

I mean, which is a better demonstration of God's preserving power? I don't believe for one minute Samson was a muscle-bound freak of nature: guaranteed he looked like a 90 pound weakling so God could get all the glory and credit.

* I get your point of Gods Power to Preserve men upon the Earth, “THROUGH” troubles.

My Point is:
* Gods FIRST (historical) and LAST (coming) Great Tribulations IS precisely THAT...God Himself SENDING Great TROUBLES Upon the Earth and the Occupants Upon the Earth...EXPRESSLY TO CAUSE TROUBLES for those OCCUPANTS UPON the face of the Earth.

* Consider the DIFFERENCES.
Men upon the Earth “CAUSING” other men TROUBLES.
God “CAUSING” men upon the earth “Great TROUBLES”...and WHY.

* Consider Gods Promises TO WHOM, and WHY.
* God SHALL CAUSE Great Troubles upon the face of the Earth.
* God SHALL DELIVER “FROM” Gods Great sent Troubles.
* God SHALL DELIVER “FROM”, Great Troubles, THOSE people;
WITH HIM.
* God SHALL “NOT DELIVER FROM”, Gods sent TROUBLES, THOSE people AGAINST HIM.

I am not trying to convince you to believe as I do.
I am trying to convince you to Consider the Scriptures of what they do and do not say.
I am trying to convince you to Consider Gods intent, of preserving men “THROUGH” troubles and delivering men “FROM” troubles.
I am trying to convince you to Consider Gods intent, WHEN HE sends ‘GREAT Troubles”, IS expressly TO CAUSE MASS BODILY DEATHS...not “PRESERVE” them....with Him, without Him...MASS Bodily Deaths.

Do you acknowledge the Difference and the Point thereof?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

Yet you don't give God any credit for Israel becoming a nation?

I don't.
Why would God allow the Zionist's to form a nation, with their communist agenda, their atheism, their reliance in their own strength, etc?
The Jewish State of Israel is the budding of the fig tree, as prophesied. Note the Jews never produce fruit.....Matthew 21:43
Over 20 prophesies tell of their Judgment and punishment and only a remnant will survive.

Israel is a Satanic construct, that the Lord will soon remove, along with all the evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14
THEN the true, faithful Overcomers for the Lord, His real Israelite peoples, will go to and live in all of the holy Land.
Great will be the Day! Zephaniah 3:9-10

 

[Keraz]

Do you acknowledge the Difference and the Point thereof?

Explain then why did God deliver the 3 men in the furnace, by protection and not removal?

No matter which way you 'rapture to heaven' believers, spin it: there is simply no scripture that says that is what God intends to do.
However; their is very many scriptures which say how He will protect His own people thru the trials and tribulations to come. And those who do stand firm and prove their faith and trust in Hom, will receive great rewards.

 

[Truth7t7]

So is the fire in Revelation 20:9 then symbolic of a sword? It works both ways, no?

You are the one trying to call two different events the same event. 2 Peter 3 is not talking about Revelation 19 nor Revelation 20. 2 Peter 3 is about the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6, and then we wait for Revelation 21.

Revelation 19 and 20 take place somewhere in time between 6 and 21.

All scripture below shows the second coming

Revelation 19 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

2 Peter 3:10 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

Revelation 20:9 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

 

[Truth7t7]

And what does any of that have to do with keeping the sabbath on Saturday or not? Nothing. You think I have the mark of the beast just because I don't believe the sabbath commandment applies to New Testament believers? I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior and surrender my life to Him, but I'm going to hell if I'm mistaken in my understanding of the sabbath? That's ludicrous. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not by grace through keeping the sabbath.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I believe the Sabbath was a shadow of the things that were to come. Now, we rest in Christ every day.

Hebrews 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Again, if I happened to be mistaken about this, that means I'm going to hell? Where does scripture teach such a thing?

(The Cult Of Ellen G. White In 7th Day Adventism)

Sunday Observance Is The Mark Of The Beast?

Soul Sleep Upon The Wickeds Death, In Denial Of A Literal Hell Fire?

The Doctrine Of (The Investigative Judgement) Was Created in 1844 After The Second Coming Prediction Failed In The Great Disappointment?

Ellen G. White's Self Proclaimed 2,000 Dreams And Visions?

Ellen G White And Her Husband James Are Buried With The Occultic Freemasonry Egyptian Obelisk?

 

[Taken]

They are hiding in the 6th Seal, because that is the Second Coming. No one was prepared.

Disagree with your claim. Not Scriptural.
Yep it’s long, approx. 6 minute read.

@Keraz

(~keraz no one is spinning anything. Follow the Order and Way of Gods Provisions to protect men upon the earth “through” tribulations MEN CAUSE, and Gods Provision to protect men FROM God Causing His Tribulations UPON the Earth.
God’s DELIVERANCE FROM, ring a bell?)

Consider the difference BETWEEN, the Return of the Son of Man AND The Lamb of God sending Down His WRATH from Heaven ... AND WHY.

The Lamb of God IS in Heaven.
For 2,000 + years the teaching has BEEN, A mans HEARTFUL CONFESSION of BELIEF TO receive Gods Holy Spirit, is by, through, the Grace of God and the of Lamb of God’s Sacrifice of His BODY and mans acceptance or rejection thereof.

Correct. Many men Heard, yet did not Believe, yet did not Confess a heartful belief.....AND? OOPS...

On a day of such many men’s HAVING NOT Believed...NOT Confessed...
Great quakes, Great chaos, and OOPS...NOW they believe, what they had Heard, IS THEN HAPPENING. (SEALS).

That is NOT the return of the Son of man.
The return of the Son of man IS TO SEPARATE men.

The SEALS judgements IS the Lamb of God, sitting in Heaven, SENDING down HIS WRATH UPON men who HEARD of Him, who HEARD of His Baptism of the Holy Spirit, AND REJECTED His Holy Baptism.

It’s an OOPS time for men to suffer the consequences FOR REJECTING the Lamb of God Holy Spirit Baptism.
It’s men upon the Earth, suffering, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, increasing stages of EACH SEAL being OPENED, and the INCREASE of the Lambs Wrath...and finally men saying...
OH, OH....now we get it...now we believe...now we know it’s true!

AND then WHAT?
Believing men ARE bodily killed, AND Continued many NON-believing men ARE bodily killed.

AND then WHAT?
The “souls of the Believing Bodily killed men” are “their souls saved and preserved under the altar”....WAITING.

WAITING for WHAT?
Waiting FOR MORE Tribulation and Wrath to come down from Heaven, to KILL MORE men upon the Earth.

Moving into the TRUMPS judgements.
More Tribulations, More men Observing, What “THEY” had “HEARD”, and did not Believe by hearing, and NOW begin BELIEVING, “BY SEEING” the Great Tribulations coming down from heaven...

Read for yourself beginning in Rev 8: about the “GREAT Tribulation things” men upon the face of the earth SHALL experience when the TRUMPS begin to sound.
* Read if it is a couple of towers falling down in NYC or a single earth quake like Mt. St. Helens, that affects a small area, and sends ash around the globe....that splashes the Headlines causing the whole world to be concerned...
* Those things ^^ pale in comparison, to what occurs DURING the TRUMPS.

Not a secret. For 2,000+ years men have been HEARING about Gods Offering of Salvation AND HOW TO Receive Gods Salvation AND BE delivered FROM, Gods Great Foretold Tribulations He SHALL send down from Heaven.

Not a secret. Few have accepted Gods Offering....(AND ARE delivered FROM the Consequence of SUFFERING Gods WRATH) AND MANY have not, and WILL not, UNTIL they begin suffering Gods WRATH.
During the TRUMPS devastation ... SOME men who HEARD of Gods soul saving Grace, will Die in belief and BE SAVE....SOME men who HEARD, will continue to REJECT Gods soul saving Grace, curse God, and Die and NOT BE SAVED.

Four Trumps have sounded, Great Tribulation Experienced ;
WARNING; of the next 3 TRUMPS and the exponential More Great-ER devastating Tribulations.

Rev 8:
[13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

You have the Son of man RETURNING DURING the Beginning of the Tribulation...BEFORE the DIVIDING between the SAVED souls and UNSAVED souls have been completed.

* The Son of Mans RETURNS “purpose”, IS TO “SEPARATE” the “DIVIDED” SOULS...IT is the REAPING...

During the first two portions of Gods Last Great Tribulation...
(The seals, trumps)...
IS about KILLING BODYS...
IS about saving souls of some bodys.
IS about Dividing the saved souls FROM the unsaved souls.
IS about the Son of Man returning and Separating the saves souls FROM the unsaved souls...
The last portion of Gods Great Tribulation IS UPON the Living men, their souls NOT saved, NOR will be saved and they experience Gods Greatest Wrath AND Vengeance.

The LAST to be SAVED, IS ISRAEL. Rev 11:
Then Sounds the THE 7th and LAST TRUMP...Rev 11:15
...Read Rev 11, 12, 13, 14...what is happening ON Earth.
...SEE Rev 14:14, The Son of Man on a cloud ABOVE the Earth...REAPING the EARTH...SEPARATING the souls SAVED DURING Gods Tribulation and Divided from the souls that DID NOT become Saved DURING Gods Tribulation.

(Think about it....What is the Son of man doing sitting on a cloud in Rev 14:14, when you Have the Son of man, ON EARTH at the opening of the 6th Seal in Rev 6:12, BEFORE all the Trumps judgements.)

Very particular, NO mention whatsoever of The Son of Man returning to Earth, WHILE the Lamb of God is in Heaven sending Down to Earth, His Wrath.


AFTER the 7th Trump is sounded, AND the devastation thereof...
THEN shall commence the GREATEST TRIBULATION expressly UPON...
They who are still ALIVE...And CAN NOT BE SAVED...BECAUSE?
They have expressly MADE their allegiance TO Satan.

Now who do you think will LIKELY be Alive and Suffering Gods Greatest Wrath AND Vengeance? AND WHEN?

The general population at large? Ha!
Or the guys who sit in “high tower” positions, having wielded their power and influence through cunning words, force, manipulation to oppress the Word of God, to advocate their word above the Word of God?
The same who have High powered Armed guards, elaborate Bunkers, stocked with necessities, peon servants catering to their protection and comfort?
SURPRISE!!
All their gold and wealth and high powered armed guards and elaborate bunkers WILL NOT SAVE THEM, from the Long arm of the Lord God.

The Son of Man does not return DURING the judgements and Dividing of the Saved from the unSaved.

 

[Taken]

Explain then why did God deliver the 3 men in the furnace, by protection and not removal?

No matter which way you 'rapture to heaven' believers, spin it: there is simply no scripture that says that is what God intends to do.
However; their is very many scriptures which say how He will protect His own people thru the trials and tribulations to come. And those who do stand firm and prove their faith and trust in Hom, will receive great rewards.

Tagged you on post 2279.

I have NO NEED to explain to you Gods protection of Saving men “THROUGH” mens tribulations against men.
(Are you UNAWARE, it was MEN who threw MEN into a fiery furnace....NOT God?)

(Are you UNAWARE, of the Great historic Destructive Tribulation CAUSED BY GOD, and HOW God SAVES men FROM His Tribulation?)

Who is SPINNING....AS IF, a mans Tribulation IS the SAME as Gods Tribulation?

You promote yourself as a Biblical Scholar and Messenger...
Why do you not know the difference between Gods Protecting men THROUGH mens tribulations, and God delivering men FROM Gods tribulations?