The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Taken]

All scripture below shows the second coming

Revelation 19 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming, it just doesn't mention the fire

2 Peter 3:10 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

Revelation 20:9 is the second coming, it mentions the fire

Rev 20:9 is not the second coming...but close.

Rev 20:9 Is what is happening when Satan is released after 1,000 years bondage in hell.
It is Satan influencing the Nations that were being established...encompassing the saints (Christ’s Kingdom)...the lands promised to Abraham...encompassing (Christ’s Throne in the Beloved city of Jerusalem)...
The Fire coming that Devours them.
The defeat of angelic angels over demonic angels.

Rev 20:
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Then Rev 20:
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan cast into hell’s lake of fire.

Rev 20; the Separations, the Return, the Books opened, the degree of final Judgement, the Sentencing....
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Taken]

And what does any of that have to do with keeping the sabbath on Saturday or not? Nothing. You think I have the mark of the beast just because I don't believe the sabbath commandment applies to New Testament believers? I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior and surrender my life to Him, but I'm going to hell if I'm mistaken in my understanding of the sabbath? That's ludicrous. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not by grace through keeping the sabbath.

Right.

Much of the NT was about the Transitioning of Tribesmen to hear, notice, learn about the arrival of their Messiah...AND the introduction of Gentiles to the God of Abraham AND the arrival of Gods Christ Messiah.

Hebrews/Tribesmen were taught to understand the Fulfillment of “their” law, WHILE keeping in Remembrance the Traditions OF special Feasts, and Days God came to their forefathers Rescue and Deliverance.

The Sabbath was not given to the Gentiles.
The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews/Tribes ... a day to rest from WORK and dedicate Remembrance, Glory, Worship unto God.

Future teaching as Gentiles enter the fold and accept the God of Israel as their God, and the Christ Messiah as their Lord...
What day to rest and Remember and Worship the Lord?

None specific. Men choose. Every day is a day the Lord hath made.
Pray without ceasing. Anywhere, Anytime 2 or 3 are gathered in the Lords Name He is there. Remember, Praise, Thank, Worship Him, continually.
Have family to tend, laundry to wash, food to cook, animals to feed and tend, a job you do to provide for your family, tend to the sad and poor in spirit....? DO IT! Tend to your obligations...Lend your time to help an other...
Have you not also time during the day to Remember, Praise, Thank, Worship the Lord God?

And Gentile men are going to squabble over A single day God set aside for Hebrew/Tribesmen, while ignoring Gentiles being taught Pray without ceasing? What day is that? Everyday, anytime, anyplace.

Just saying...think about it People.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Most of those calling themselves Christians or the church, have seem pretty fallen away for decades. How much further can the church apostasize?

How much further...? Not quite there yet.

Christian is about implying an indication of interest, learning about, or having become converted.

Few are converted, which has nothing to do with going and being seen in a man-made Church.
Christ’s Church is with-IN the Converted 24-7.

Apostasy will routinely been seen in man-made churches.
We can see it now, in huge mega-Churches pandering to what men WANT to hear that makes them feel good about themselves....rather than what they NEED to Hear is acceptable to the Lord God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

It's what Jesus said.

WHERE did Lord Jesus say the separation of the goats vs. the sheep is about GENTILE NATIONS?

 

[Davy]

No, these are the gentiles not gathers as "elect" when Jesus comes to sit on His throne.

This is prophecy, isn't it?

Much love!

If you're going to QUOTE, you need to learn to do it properly, like a professional, and not like an amateur who can't be taken seriously. You cut my statement in half, and showed only the part you wanted.

 

[farouk]

Yes!

There's always Reflective Listening, if you are open to that. Where we restate the other's view, and receive correction and restate, until the other person says, Yes, that's what I'm saying.



So when I'm talking about the rapture, I'm meaning a particular point in time when the dead and living in Christ are caught up to Jesus in resurrection/transformation. The dead are resurrected, the living are transformed.

There will be a particular day and hour at which that happens, whether it's pre-trib, or post, or pre-wrath, or the many variations of these.

Given the tense of the word, "has come", lit. "in-stood", as a perfect tense, which is to say an action initiated whose affect remains, this is saying the day of Christ has come, and is here. So if we are using "day of Christ" as another way of saying "rapture day", then the saying would be, "as though rapture day has come, is here."

So my contention is with this idea that telling someone that rapture day has come and is here, why would that trouble them? It would be a moment to lift up your head, for your redemption is oh so close at hand.

It doesn't make sense to me.

If you read it as, "as though the day of Christ has come", with it being a simple past tense, Aorist, then it could be very troubling, what many suppose the verse is actually saying, though it doesn't, "as though Rapture Day came, and you missed it". But that's not the grammar. It's a perfect tense, an act whose affect remains.

It's used of those who worship the beast, Revelation 13:8, who's names are not written in the book of life, this is a perfect tense, and it means, whose names have not remained written. The were blotted out, removed, just like God told Moses in Exodus 32, I think it is. Or maybe 30:32, something like that, The one who sins I shall blot from My book, God said.

In this case, the day comes, remains, it's here. If it's rapture day, it's here. Why would you be troubled? You're about to see Jesus!

Much love!

@marks In 1 Corinthians 11.26 the rapture is clearly linked with the church.

 

[Davy]

Let's dispense with Preterism and focus on Historicism. What's your first point about Historicism which you find problematic regarding Matthew 24? We can deal with that, then move to the next, shall we?

Let's dispense with man's seminary categories altogether, since it is The Word of God that we are supposed... to be staying with.

I showed you what Jesus' disciples asked Him in that Matthew 24:3 verse of what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world. And are you still going to try and say they were pointing to 70 A.D. with that idea?

 

[Timtofly]

Of course.

No, I'm asking for any verse of scripture which says something about this supposed event where millions of people will just disappear and says something about the chaos and destruction that would result from that. Do you have anything? Or are you just trying to distract attention away from the fact that you don't have anything?

Paul says we meet the Lord in the air, the clouds. That is disappearing from the earth. That happens at the Second Coming. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus says the saints don't rise and go to heaven until the "voice of the Son of God" at the Second Coming. They are resting in their graves, awaiting the Resurrection of the Just.

No, they heard Jesus on the Cross, and came out of their graves at that point. Matthew 27:52-53

 

[Timtofly]

Before I move on to another point, I like to finish the one on the table.

Would you agree that the context of "not one stone shall be left upon another" is clearly seen to be "that shall not be thrown down"? There's no other way to look at it, and thus, Jesus' prediction about the temple stones stands fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Jesus' Words do not stand fulfilled.

Your point about one building being destroyed happened. But not the Words of Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

Course it will. The two resurrections are separated by the millennium, and during that time, Isaiah 24 will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 4 and 25 which speak of global destruction will be fulfilled, 2 Peter 3:10 will be fulfilled, all those verses which speak of global destruction.

There was already the one Resurrection. The earth is not a desolate trash heap. There is no 1,000 years between 2 resurrections.

There has been 1992 years since the first resurrection. There will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, and then creation is handed back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:21-28

 

[Davy]

Jesus did say many would attempt. Jesus did not single out one "end of the world person".

You probably won't listen, so this is likely for those brethren in Christ that will listen.

Apostle John in 1 John 2:18 revealed that a singular "antichrist" shall come, which they had already heard about, and yet there also were "many antichrists" already at work. Apostle Paul gave that same warning in 2 Thessalonians 2, and so did Lord Jesus below...

The 'many antichrists' idea:
Matt 24:5
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
KJV


The singular coming antichrist idea:
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: behold, "He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

In those parts in red, Jesus is pointing to a singular false Christ.

Even the Greek for "false Christs" in verse 24 is simply the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos', made up of 2 Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and Christos which is singular for Christ (see Strong's nos.5571 and 5548).

The reason these Matthew 24:23-26 verses are about a 'singular' antichrist those in 1 John 2:18 had already heard shall come, is because this one is to work those great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The working of those 'great signs and wonders' is the key, and links directly to 2 Thessalonians 2 about the false one there, and to Revelation 13:11 about the "another beast" that is to do that same working of miracles to deceive.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a "man of sin" that is to come, sitting in the temple of God (a new temple for the end in Jerusalem), proclaiming himself as God, and over all the is called God, or that is worshiped. That's John's singular "antichrist" idea. And then in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 Paul reveals that the "mystery of iniquity" is already at work, which is John's idea about the "many antichrists" already at work. And at 2 Thessalonians 2:9 verse tells us that false one is coming after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders. So that's a direct connection to the Matthew 24:24 working of "great signs and wonders".

Thusly, the Matthew 24:5, Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2:7, 2:9, and Revelation 13:11-14, and 1 John 2:18 Scriptures are all about the same subject of a singular antichrist, and the many antichrists (his followers).

We've already had many in history that claimed to be Christ, but NONE of them had the power of those great signs and wonders. The Antichrist to come at the end of this world will have that power, as those Scripture examples attest.

 

[marks]

Sorry, but I just can't make any sense out of what you're saying. Since when does scripture teach that people would know that "rapture day" is here before even being raptured (caught up to meet Christ)?

This is the heart of your argument.

Your assertion, if I understand you rightly, is that they were troubled by someone telling them the rapture had come and gone, and they missed it, right? That's why they were troubled?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

While I disagree with him, it's great that SOME PEOPLE recognize the problem with chopping off the entire last week and sending it down to the end of time when the nails of the Cross have also nailed down the 70th Week in the annals of history.

I don't chop off the entire last week. Messiah was the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, but was cut off. Decapitated was the word used.

Prince will be the point the 70th week comes to a close. Daniel's 70th week was put on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. Daniel's people are not currently enjoying those promises and their Prince ruling over Jerusalem, and all the nations. In fact, instead of righteousness without sin. Instead of a perfect world where Daniel's people will be blessed, you have earth as a desolate dung heap.

You claim Jeremiah over Daniel as the outcome of the Second Coming.

Your fulfillment of the 70th week has left the earth as declared by Jeremiah for the last 1992 years. The Second Coming will finish the 70th week as God intended, and leave the earth as promised in Daniel 9:24.

 

[marks]

WHERE did Lord Jesus say the separation of the goats vs. the sheep is about GENTILE NATIONS?

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Which is parallel to,

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

 

[marks]

who can't be taken seriously. You cut my statement in half, and showed only the part you wanted.

Yes, but I can quote your entire posts if you like. I often prefer to quote just the part my comment address, to be less "bulky". Sometimes I quote the part I do for a certain effect, and highlight.

But really, we're just a couple of guys chatting online . . .

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Messiah always was and is the Prince.

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Acts 3
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

The Prince to come is the Second Coming.

Do you have proof the Second Coming already happened?

 

[marks]

That's a Jewish idea that the dividing of the sheep/goats is about Gentile nations.

In John 10, who was Lord Jesus pointing as His sheep?

Thus the sheep in Matthew 25 represent His elect faithful that wait for His coming. The goats of course represent the children of darkness, followers of Satan, these...

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
KJV

Also, one needs to remember that just because Lord Jesus did not describe His future Millennial reign of a "thousand years" with His elect, as written in Revelation 20, that does not mean those goats on the left-hand immediately go into the "lake of fire" on the day of His coming.

The Bible plainly states in both NT and OT that when Jesus returns, He first gathers Israel to the promised land, and then gathers the nations to be judged. This is not "a Jewish idea" any more or less than anything else in the Bible is a "Jewish idea". Actually, I hope it is, so they will be agreed with Scripture.

The one's on His right don't "represent" someone, they ARE someone. The gentile nations, gathered for judgment, when Jesus comes in power and glory.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

You missed my point entirely. I wasn't implying that there's no belief in a rapture.
The passage of scripture about hunting souls doesn't sound like the rapture but something entirely different that you have no explanation for.

I didn't miss your point. I believe you're trying to evade my point, which is from Scripture.

The idea of one thinking to 'save their soul by flying away' is my point, and fits the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine fully. And that flying away to save one's soul is what God is showing He is against in that Ezekiel 13 Chapter.

 

[marks]

If you take Matthew 24 you can overlay it on the seals. In other words, what Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 is exactly what John tells us in the seals.

Personally I think that the birth pangs in Matthew 24 are building, and when the seals are opened, those things become fixed and global.

An example from the 2nd seal, the world will grow more and more violent, in waves, the birth pangs, but when the seal is opened, and peace is taken from the earth, the violence becomes universal and ongoing.

Much love!