Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?

[Taken]

Yes, God - not Jesus.

Jesus does not show up until v14.

You KNOWING WHEN Jesus “arrived” ON EARTH, was NOT Jesus’ Beginning.

Rev 13:
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Uh, He who was SENT (4,000 Years AFTER mankind was created), Sent out of Gods Mouth, TO Earth, in a prepared Body.......IS HE who is without Beginning.

BEFORE the Earth was Formed, Before mankind was Created...He was Present (and SINGING) IN the Beginning OF Gods CREATING and MAKING.

Days of HISTORY are Important to KNOW.
Why?
Because...what was in history, shall be again!
Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Historically God SENT His WORD out of His mouth, and men complained, HEARING Gods Word, was “NOT SUFFICIENT”...men wanted “TO SEE GOD”!

Because..? Hearing is one thing...BUT SEEING....IS a man’s IDEA of “BELIEVING”.

God called “THEM”, “stubborn and stiffnecked”.
God promised the “stubborn and stiffnecked”, they would SEE God.
God fulfilled His Promise, made “to them”.

John 14:
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Gods Word, Jesus, came to Earth, walked among “them”. “They” saw Him. Some of “them” accepted Him. Some of “them” rejected Him.
Gods Word, Jesus, Accomplished/Fulfilled Gods Promise and returned to Heaven.

For the LAST 2,000 years, men continue being born of Water from a females’ womb...Hearing (but not Seeing) Gods Word.
AGAIN...men born of their mothers womb, PICK and CHOOSE, to Believe what they Hear, without SEEING, in Belief, or Unbelief.
Nothing new.

Some men TRUST to Believe...By Hearing, without SEEING.
Some men are Stubborn and Stiffnecked, and Reject Believing without SEEING.

AGAIN, nothing new; as Promised and SHALL be fulfilled....ALL MEN WILL SEE, WHEN the WORD of God, AGAIN comes Down from Gods Heavenly Throne;
TO where The Word of God was LAST SEEN...in the clouds.
ALL Above the Earth, On the Earth, IN the Earth SHALL SEE HIM, in the clouds.

Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Phil 2
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Rev 1:
[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Heaven IS Gods Throne. Gods Kingdom.
Earthly body’s of men DO NOT come down from Heaven or Go to Heaven.
If you have NOT learned WHO DID come down From Heaven, Returned to Heaven “IS GOD”, that is your Limitation of Knowledge, NOT mine.

 

[Taken]

Words are WHAT's not WHO's.

Greek speak “logos” are what’s not WHO....WITH God.

Gods WORD out of His Mouth, IS a WHO....IS God.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Taken]

That's a big league assumption on a verse or 2 there that does not offset the 1,000's of times God is referred to using singular pronouns.

I do not require a lesson on one referencing himself...as our, as us.

I know perfectly well, referencing the whole of myself, as “our” as “us”, is a reference to my body, my soul, my spirit.

Being made in the LIKENESS ‘as’ my creator and maker....He referencing “HIMSELF” as “our” as “us”, Simply informs me, THE WHOLE of God; His Will, His Word, His Power, is involved in Creating and Making of His Creations.

He Created and Made.
His Will, His Power, His Word...

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image...

Gen 5: Regarding the MAN-KIND of thing...
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

THEM, man-KIND created and made, ONE NAME. A foreshadow of Gods LIKENESS, THEM, are ONE God.

John 10:30
I and my father ARE ONE.

And further. Christ is the ROCK of HIS Church. All the pebbles joining Christ’s Church, are likened as Little rock’s, stone upon stone, Stable, Established UPON Gods Unwavering ROCK foundation, rising UP higher and higher without FAILING to topple or fall.

 

[Taken]

That's a big league assumption on a verse or 2 there that does not offset the 1,000's of times God is referred to using singular pronouns.

So? “I”...see “I” can certainly use singular pronouns to speak of or for “myself.” I KNOW what encompasses the WHOLE of “I”, “me”, “myself”... body, soul, spirit.

Scripture itself give you examples, of an individual SPEAKING expressly from the VIEW POINT, of :
“their body” or of “their soul” or of “their spirit”...

MY body....15 times in Scripture
My soul.....183 times in Scripture
My spirit....46 times in Scripture.

When your BODY is ailing, and you elect to go to a Physician...
Are you hoping for the physician to give AID to YOUR BODY?
Or also to your soul, or also to your spirit?

 

[Taken]

Proving again that the Father is the giver, Yahweh, God alone.

I have not said otherwise.
I have expressly said in my posts that God IS the Creator, God IS the Maker, God IS the Life, God Gives Life, God Takes Life.

That is NOT in Dispute.

The DISPUTE IS; about NAMES, TITLES, DESCRIPTIONS.

By your OWN testimony, You have NOT reached “that day”, that “you know” WHO the fullness of God “IS”.

Jesus has flat out TOLD YOU. A simple TO THE POINT, one liner.

John 10:
[30] I and my Father are one.

The Jews HEARING Jesus’ OWN comment, understood exactly what Jesus SAID.

The Jews HEARING and UNDERSTANDING what Jesus SAID, revealed their UNDERSTANDING.

Jesus was DECLARING HIMSELF to “BE GOD”!
And FURTHER, the Jews wanted to KILL Jesus for CLAIMING TO “BE GOD”!

John 10:
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Did Jesus DENY the Jews Charge, that He was claiming to “BE GOD”?

No!

If you are still wondering WHO I believe. I believe Jesus.

 

[Taken]

Yes, some believe (apparently) that because Jesus was a man, He is forever a man, and because He came as the Son of God He is not God (or something like that)...because they cannot fathom it.

And it makes sense.

For this reason, God said, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

It’s a conundrum ...
Men WANT, to use their CARNAL MINDED LOGIC to UNDERSTAND Gods Spiritual Understanding.

Carnal Minded Logic, is what satisfies the “SENSES”...ie makes Sense.
Spiritual Understanding, in RESPECT to the carnal Mind...MAKES NO SENSE!

Spiritual Understanding, is IN RESPECT, TO the Understanding of THE SPIRIT.

The FAIL of Satan....is he is a spirit, YET he has NOT Spiritual Understanding.

The FAIL of Men...is they Have a Carnal MIND, and ATTEMPT to rely on their CARNAL MIND, to Understand Spiritual things.

* SPIRITUAL Understanding, CAN NOT BE, Bought, Worked for, Given man to man, found in scripts, books, Obtained, Received.........
EXCEPT BY ONLY ONE WAY...

* Spiritual Understanding, CAN be Obtained, Received BY ONLY ONE WAY...

* THAT ONE WAY, (for ANY creature to Receive Gods Spiritual Understanding) IS ONLY, WHEN GOD Himself GIVES His Spiritual UNDERSTANDING to an Individual creature.

Men who require a flat out ONE Liner?

1 Chr 22:
[12 a] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding...

@ScottA - get the same notice, when men WITHOUT spiritual understanding want to debate and argue and accuse from their stand point of Carnal Understanding Regarding the understanding of Spiritual things.
Not “a surprise or unexpected”, but overbearing, none the less.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Yes, some believe (apparently) that because Jesus was a man, He is forever a man, and because He came as the Son of God He is not God (or something like that)...because they cannot fathom it.

Well, nonsense is unfathomable.

Said differently, this is THE insult I have heard for decades, pretending the only reason one rejects the claim is because one does not understand the claim. I understand the trinitarian claim. I reject the trinitarian claim.

How did Jesus teach us to pray? As a brother to our father. Nuff said.

For trinitarians, they start with their doctrine and everything else be damned. Frankly, one would not derive the trinity from an objective reading of Scripture. The Scripture explicitly and repeatedly says Jesus is the Son of God. For some reason, this is not good enough for trinitarians. There simply is no trinitarian verse in 66 books, something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

 

[Wrangler]

You KNOWING WHEN Jesus “arrived” ON EARTH, was NOT Jesus’ Beginning.

A common trinitarian tactic is to always change the subject. There are always supposedly 'other' verses that 'support' their doctrine. We were talking about how John 1:1 is about God not Jesus.

I'm not going to chase your tail.

 

[Wrangler]

Gods WORD out of His Mouth, IS a WHO....IS God

Figurative use of language that God's word is God. Kind of like Emperor Palpatine saying he is the Senate.

 

[Wrangler]

I do not require a lesson on one referencing himself...as our, as us.

Apparently you do.

 

[Wrangler]

Proving again that the Father is the giver, Yahweh, God alone.

I have not said otherwise.
I have expressly said in my posts that God IS the Creator, God IS the Maker, God IS the Life, God Gives Life, God Takes Life.

That is NOT in Dispute.

Are you aware that you replaced the Father in my post with God? You changed the reference point and then claim there's no dispute. Very intellectually dishonest. I'll pray for you.

What is your purpose in posting in this thread, since it is not asking for an apology of trinitarianism? You seem driven to cover the same superficial ground, refuted over and over and over again. You prove once again that trinitarianism does not bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. (Disputing unnecessarily)

Q. Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?
A. If you are not a non-trinitarian offering a trinitarian apology, you are derailing the thread, which is asking for a Non-Trinitarian apology.

 

[Taken]

A common trinitarian tactic is to always change the subject. There are always supposedly 'other' verses that 'support' their doctrine. We were talking about how John 1:1 is about God not Jesus.

I'm not going to chase your tail.

I didn’t change the subject. I responded to your FIRST knowledge of Jesus being WHEN He was Revealed.

If you want to be “stuck” in only what you “know” without regard to Historical knowledge, so be it.

 

[Taken]

Figurative use of language that God's word is God. Kind of like Emperor Palpatine saying he is the Senate.

Nah.
I will presume you are speaking of a Human and a Human’s position comparable to God and His position.

The Human is Earthly.
God is Spiritual.

 

[Taken]

Apparently you do.

No, it is not apparent.
I have already in detail explained, with examples even a child could comprehend.

 

[Taken]

Are you aware that you replaced the Father in my post with God? You changed the reference point and then claim there's no dispute. Very intellectually dishonest. I'll pray for you.

IF you have a beef with something I said, you should have specifically quoted me and addressed that point.
No request or need for you to pray for me.
I have brothers I can solicit if I feel the need.

[/QUOTE] What is your purpose in posting in this thread, since it is not asking for an apology of trinitarianism? [/QUOTE]

Cuz, I felt like posting in this thread.
You are not the OP of this thread, so really nonya business.

you seem driven to cover the same superficial ground, refuted over and over and over again. You prove once again that trinitarianism does not bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. (Disputing unnecessarily)

Per your usual, You confuse disagreeing with some superficial idea that your disagreement means proof positive otherwise. It’s doesn’t.

Q. Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?
A. If you are not a non-trinitarian offering a trinitarian apology, you are derailing the thread, which is asking for a Non-Trinitarian apology.

When YOU are the OP and Manager of this thread, YOU can ASK me not to post on this thread. Otherwise, I have no obligation to consider your sideline whining.

 

[Wrangler]

Nah.
I will presume you are speaking of a Human and a Human’s position comparable to God and His position.

The Human is Earthly.
God is Spiritual.

I see where you are going.

Trinitarianism is Earthly.
Unitarianism is Spiritual and Biblical, consistent with definition, logic and language usage.

 

[ScottA]

Well, nonsense is unfathomable.

Said differently, this is THE insult I have heard for decades, pretending the only reason one rejects the claim is because one does not understand the claim. I understand the trinitarian claim. I reject the trinitarian claim.

How did Jesus teach us to pray? As a brother to our father. Nuff said.

For trinitarians, they start with their doctrine and everything else be damned. Frankly, one would not derive the trinity from an objective reading of Scripture. The Scripture explicitly and repeatedly says Jesus is the Son of God. For some reason, this is not good enough for trinitarians. There simply is no trinitarian verse in 66 books, something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

This I understand (fathom).

But I have stated that many do not understand (fathom) the omnipresent nature of God in what would [only] appear to be a Trinity, calling it nonsense even.

What you said, I don't consider nonsense, but rather understandable. Because you have held to the earlier version of what God has presented. This is as far as some go in following God. This too I have explained: That God was One God, not a Father with a Son even, until He introduced Him, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” God with us. Then in the fulness of time, in like manner the Son whom the world did not know and many did not receive, also introduced the Comforter, AKA the Holy Spirit. After which there have not been any more than the Three who, by the witness of scripture are One in spirit. And regardless of interpretations we are not still at any of these points that have proceeded beginning with the One, regardless of the claims of some that men or even Satan have been in control rather than God, but are where we are not by men's understanding of certain errors...but by the providence of God who has not fallen to evil forces, but works all things, even what men do for evil, for good for those who love Him according to His purpose. And...understandably, to follow what has come down through the ages, requires faith which is greater in God than in the evils of men. Nonetheless, who shall we follow--our own ability to find out the schemes of men, or God's ability to be above and in control of all things?

Even so--certainly men have rejected the idea of a Son of God who would be called Emmanuel, and now also the idea of "another" Helper is also rejected. I understand this.

Nonetheless, the rejections are a pattern--not a good one; and the sense or logic of men is not going to be the end of it--but rather every word from God, in spite of the actions of evil men and Satan.

 

[Taken]

Yes, some believe (apparently) that because Jesus was a man, He is forever a man, and because He came as the Son of God He is not God (or something like that)...because they cannot fathom it.

And it makes sense.

For this reason, God said, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Ole’ Bruce Jenner, born a man, made some physiological adjustments, nipped, tucked, shaved....changed his Name, changed his Clothing, changed his hair....dysfunctional, but was naturally born a man.
Aside from his obsession to appear as a female, and in a relationship with another man, also posing as a female....call themselves Lesbians, rather than male homosexuals, and WANT a baby, AS IF Bruce alone has not reeked enough havoc on children under his care.

Point being, Ancient men were skeptical of only HEARING about God. They complained, they wanted to SEE God. And today for the past 2,000 years this world has become exponentially Corrupt, that SEEING, does not translate to BELIEVING. Lies have been promoted, tolerated, acceptable at LARGE, as Truths. Nothing is forbidden...
Truth to Lies, among society, among family, among friends, among governments, among clerics...corrupt and commonplace.

That which God Created and Made IS what it IS, until the day God changes His Creations.

Heb 13:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Now IF some earthly man can NOT pin-point to the exact “yesterday”... spoken of in Scripture....I am content with knowing Jesus Christ has always existed, without consideration of WHEN men first learned of Him or Saw Him.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I see where you are going.

Trinitarianism is Earthly.
Unitarianism is Spiritual and Biblical, consistent with definition, logic and language usage.

I didn’t say trinitarianism is Earthly!
I didn’t say unitarianism is Spiritual!

Trinitarianism is a belief system OF earthly men.
Unitarianism is a belief system OF earthly men.

 

[Wrangler]

Because you have held to the earlier version of what God has presented. … That God was One God, not a Father with a Son even, until He introduced Him

Until is false, a trinitarian invention not found in Scripture. In fact it contradicts Scripture The Father, who alone is God, does not say he has a God. Jesus says he has a God. Do you recognize that?