I don't think any JWs or other who don't believe Jesus is God will have read any of my three posts stating that he categorically is God
For those who think Christ is not God.
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If you have read all three of those posts right through then you know how I am reconciled.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
In your posts, you did not adddress the verses I mentioned.
Just ignoring verses is NOT reconcilling. For instance, don't overlook a stronger explicit anti-trinitarian verse than is hard to imagine. For us, there is one God, the Father. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Christ’s name is called “Wonderful” (<230906>Isaiah 9:6), and even the angels of
God are commanded to worship Him (<580106>Hebrews 1:6). There is no
salvation apart from a true knowledge of Him (<431703>John 17:3). “Whosoever
denieth the Son [either His true Godhead, or His true and holy humanity]...
hath not the Father” (<620223>1 John 2:23).
They are thrice-blessed to whom the
Spirit of Truth communicates a supernatural revelation of the Being of
Christ (<401617>Matthew 16:17). It will lead them in the only path of wisdom
and joy, for in Him “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”
(
<510203>Colossians 2:3) until they are taken to be where He is and behold His
supernal glory forever (<431724>John 17:24). An increasing apprehension of the
Truth concerning the person of Christ should be our constant aim.
“Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh” (<540316>1 Timothy 3:16).
In view of such a divine declaration as this, it is both useless and impious
for any man to attempt an explanation of the wondrous and unique person
of the Lord Jesus.
He cannot be fully comprehended by any finite
intelligence. “No man knoweth the Son, but the Father” (<401127>Matthew
11:27). Nevertheless, it is our privilege to grow “in the knowledge of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (<610318>2 Peter 3:18).
So too it is the duty of
His servants to hold up the person of the God-man as revealed in Holy
Scriptures, as well as to warn against errors which cloud His glory.
The one born in Bethlehem’s manger was “the mighty God” (<230906>Isaiah
9:6), “Immanuel” (<400123>Matthew 1:23), “the great God and our Savior”
(
<560213>Titus 2:13). He is also the true Man, with a spirit, a soul and a body,
for these are essential to human nature. None could be real man without all
three. Nevertheless, the humanity of Christ (that holy thing, <420135>Luke 1:35)
is not a distinct person, separate from His Godhead, for it never had a
separate existence before taken into union with His deity. He is the God man, yet “one Lord” (<490405>Ephesians 4:5). As such He was born, lived here
in this world, died, rose again, ascended to heaven, and will continue thus
176
for all eternity. As such He is entirely unique, and the Object of lasting
wonder to all holy beings.
The person of Christ is a composite one. Two separate natures are united
in one peerless Person; but they are not fused into each other, instead, they
remain distinct and different. The human nature is not divine, nor has it
been, intrinsically, deified, for it possesses none of the attributes of God.
The humanity of Christ, absolutely and separately considered, is neither
omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnipresent. On the other hand, His deity is
not a creature, and has none of the properties which pertain to such.
Taking to Himself a human nature did not effect any change in His divine
being. It was a divine person who wedded to Himself a holy humanity, and
though His essential glory was partly veiled, yet it never ceased to be, nor
did His divine attributes cease to function. As the God-man, Christ is the
“one mediator” (<540205>1 Timothy 2:5). He alone was fitted to stand between
God and men and effect a reconciliation between them.
J.
I did not need to address the verse you mentioned because there are plenty of others which prove to me that Jesus is God. And those verses you want me to address also are proof.
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).
In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”
In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”
No, you are not God, you don't have the exousia in your little pinky to condemn others to Hell.
J.
To some people it matters not what the bible/scriptures say for they follow their own leader's twisted version of truth. It is not possible to convince them otherwise. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.
Though no analogy exists by which we may illustrate the mysterious
person of Christ, there is a most remarkable type in <020302>Exodus 3:2-6. The
“flame of fire” in the midst of the “bush,” was an emblem of the presence
of God indwelling the Man Christ Jesus. Observe that the One who
appeared there to Moses is termed, first, “the angel of the LORD,” which
declares the relation of Christ to the Father, namely, “the angel
(messenger) of the covenant.” But secondly, this angel said unto Moses, “I
am the God of Abraham,” that is what He was absolutely in Himself. The
fire — emblem of Him who is a “consuming fire” — placed itself in a bush
(a thing of the earth), where it burned, yet the bush was not consumed. A
remarkable foreshadowing this was of the “fullness of the Godhead,”
dwelling in Christ (<510209>Colossians 2:9). That this is the meaning of the type
is clear, when we read of “The good will of him that dwelt in the bush”
(
<053316>Deuteronomy 33:16).
The great mystery of the Trinity is that one Spirit should subsist eternally
as three distinct Persons: the mystery of the person of Christ is that two
separate spirits (divine and human) should constitute but one person.
The
moment we deny the unity of His person we enter the bogs of error.
Christ
is the God-man. The humanity of Christ was not absorbed by His deity, but
preserves its own characteristics. Scripture does not hesitate to say,
“Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and
man” (<420252>Luke 2:52).
Christ is both infinite and finite, self-sufficient and dependent at the same
time, because His Person embraces, two different natures, the divine and
the human.
In the incarnation the second Person of the Trinity established a personal
union between Himself and a human spirit, soul, and body. His two natures
remained and remain distinct, and their properties or active powers are
inseparable from each nature respectively.
J.
Amen to that @Pearl, stay strong in Christ Jesus and I admire your pathos and zeal for the cause of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.
J.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The letter is meant to bare witness of the Light, these men of the first century beheld. The light wasn’t seen till Pentecost when the Holy Spirit allows too see.
No mother in the equation at all Johann, where did that come from? I think you have a different Unitarian group in mind I'm afraid - the Universalists or Universalistic Unitarianism. You did not consider there are more than one Unitarian group. Don't be so hasty is stating unfounded claims for me and others. I'm glad then you are asking the questions first...;)
And Jesus being simply a man is quite shallow thinking and annoying because you need to explain this simplicity. What does that mean Johann? I can write a short book on why Yahshua was a very special and unique man born of the Father. That last part of the sentence, that fact alone, makes Christ not just simply a man.
Also, I must point out to you since you are doing some research on different belief systems, that there is a much larger group of Unitarians called 'Universal' Unitarianism that is to be ignored at all costs. They accommodate all types of faith that are not just of the Father and Son. They are the ones that add in mother etc..
The one I have always in mind when I answered your previous post were the BIBLICAL Unitarians, altogether a different kettle of worms, and only several tens of thousands officially on this planet. They are the ones along with say Christadelphians, and the Church of the Greater God, and a few others who do align with many of my beliefs, and I find they are the most avid, learned and experts in understanding scripture on this planet, by far. The RCs and the rest of Protestantism do not live with scripture as they do...just through my experience over 40 years now.
Now saying all this Johann, I do find the JW groups closer to me in belief than to you, on to subject of truth in scripture. And especially if it was not for their Michael and making logos a person or being as a god, I would be seeing them more. 'Logos' word can never be a god or any being just from the Greek source alone. I do learn from some in their understanding of scripture, they are very dedicated. Where I do not learn anything positive to further my knowledge is from a Trinitarian, except to only reinforce my beliefs why I'm much different, and for reasons I have already spoken about.
My belief is centered strictly on true monotheism, biblical Unitarianism and not anything beyond this point, like bi-Unitarianism, Tri-Unitarianism, Trinitarianism that is not true monotheism as especially recorded in the OT scriptures.
Here's brief expansion of these beliefs that should give you more insight:
The Bible represents the spoken words and expressions of YHWH, the Almighty One. His name is YHWH. The use of God, Elohim, Adonai and the Father in these writings represent him, YHWH - I am that I am, or ‘I will be that I will be.’ YHWH is one singular person or Spirit, and he is the Father of all souls. The Oneness of YHWH the Father alone is indisputable.
I'm Anti-Trinit Arianism, Anti-Binit-Arianism, Anti- Model-ism and Anti-Oneness of any variety except the only true oneness of God the Father.
Biblical Unitarians and Christadelphians believe that only the Father is God, and that Jesus Christ is a man, the Christ as our Redeemer and Savior, the Son of God, and that he did not pre-exist before his birth except inside the mind and part of the major plan of God, YHWH.
Only the Oneness of YHWH as the Father alone, and his Son, Jesus Christ, represents true Christian monotheism today. There are no other forms, only this one.
My eschatology is focused on Partial (Orthodox or Classic) Preterism and Amillennialism.
:)
How do you explain these verses then?
Because Jesus Christ is God in the flesh (2 Cor. 5:19), He had no beginning and will have no end. Some
cults teach that Jesus did not exist before He came to earth.
The following verses prove that Jesus
existed as God in heaven in eternity past.
Micah 5:2--"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One
will go forth from Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."
This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus (Matt. 2:6). Notice Jesus' existence is "from the days of eternity," not
when he was born in Bethlehem.
Matt. 22:41-45--Jesus said David in the Old Testament was talking about the Messiah (Jesus) when
David said, "The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus)…"
John 1:1--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This
verse proves that Jesus is God and existed from the beginning (forever).
John 1:2--"He was in the beginning with God." He was with the Father (John 17:5).
John 1:3--"All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has
come into being." He created the world before He came here.
John 1:14--"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." For the Word to become flesh, He had to
exist before He was born.
John 1:15--John said, "He who comes after me (Jesus) has a higher rank than I, for He existed before
me." Luke 1:13-36 tells us John was 6 months older than Jesus, which means Jesus existed before He
was born.
John 1:30--John said, "...for He (Jesus) existed before me."
John 3:13--Jesus said, "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven,
even the Son of Man." Jesus said He descended from heaven.
John 6:46--Jesus said He had seen the Father (in heaven).
John 6:51--Jesus said, "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven…"
John 6:62--Jesus said, "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was
before?"
John 8:56--Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it and was glad."
John 8:58--Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." The Jews
wanted to know how he had seen Abraham when He wasn't 50 years old. Jesus answered that He was "I
AM." I AM is the Hebrew name for God (Ex. 3:13-14, Dt. 32.39, Isa. 43:10).
John 17:5--Jesus prayed, "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I
ever had with Thee before the world was." Jesus existed before the world was created.
Phil. 2:6-7--"Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a
thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the
likeness of men." The Greek word for "form" means nature. Col. 1:16-17--"For by Him (Jesus) all things
were created…all things were created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things…" Heb. 1:8--"But
of the Son (Jesus) He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever…" (Quote from Ps. 45:6). This verse
proves that Jesus is God and existed from eternity past.
Heb. 1:10--"Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth…" (Quote from Ps. 102:25).
This verse proves Jesus created the world.
Heb. 7:1-6,17--Melchizedek is used as an illustration of Jesus. Because there were no genealogical
records of his birth or death,
Melchizedek is said to have no beginning and no end (v.3,6). On the other
hand, we have genealogical records of Christ's birth and death, yet He has no beginning or end because
He is God.
Heb. 10:5--"Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, 'Sacrifice and offering Thou has not
desired, but a body Thou hast prepared for Me." For Jesus to come into the world, He had to exist before
He was born.
He came from heaven into the body which would be sacrificed (v.10).
Heb. 13:8--"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever." Eternity past is yesterday. 1
John 1:2--Jesus was "with the Father and was manifested to us." Rev. 1:17, 2:8--Jesus is called "the first
and the last." Jehovah God called Himself "the first and the last." (Isa. 41:4, 44:6)
J.
And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him,.... Not a created angel, but the Angel of God's presence and covenant, the eternal Word and Son of God; since he is afterwards expressly called Jehovah, and calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which a created angel would never do: the appearance was,
in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a bush; not in a tall, lofty, spreading oak or cedar, but in a low thorny bramble bush, which it might have been thought would have been consumed in an instant of time:
and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed; this was not imaginary, but a real thing; there was
such a bush, and Jehovah appeared in it in this manner, and though it was all on fire yet was not consumed, but remained entire after it: reference is frequently had to it as a matter of fact, De 33:16. Artapanus {g}, an Heathen writer, had got some hint of it; his account is this, that while Moses was praying to God, and entreating the afflictions of his people might cease, he was propitious to him, and on a sudden fire broke out of the earth and burned, when there was no matter nor anything of a woody sort in the place: nor need this account Moses gives be thought incredible, when so many things similar to it are affirmed by Heathen writers, who speak of a whole forest in flames without fire, and of a spear that burned for two hours, and yet nothing of it consumed; and of a servant's coat all on fire, and yet after it was extinguished no trace or mark of the flames were to be seen on it; and several other things of the like kind are related by Huetius {h} out of various authors: as to the mystical signification of this bush, some make it to be a type of Christ, and of his manifestation in the flesh; of the union of the two natures in him, and of their distinction of the glory of the one, and of the meanness of the other; of his sustaining the wrath of God, and remaining fearless and unhurt by it; and of his delivering and preserving his people from it: the Jews commonly interpret it of the people of Israel, in the furnace of affliction in Egypt, and yet not consumed; nay, the more they were afflicted the more they grew; and it may be a symbol of the church and people of God, in all ages, under affliction and distress: they are like to a thorn bush both for their small quantity, being few, and for their quality, in themselves weak and strengthless, mean and low; have about them the thorns of corruptions and temptations, and who are often in the fire of afflictions and persecutions, yet are not consumed; which is owing to the person, presence, power, and grace of Christ being among them;
Gill
is this correct marks?
J.
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