Bad translation......
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Bad translation......
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I don’t believe it is a straw man. Listen to the contradictory message given to us by “Got Questions.” They say, I quote:
“Yes, a true Christian who falls back into sin is still saved, but at the same time a person who lives a life controlled by sin is not truly a Christian.”
Source:
Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org
This is not the first contradictory statements I heard by OSAS Proponents. They says dumb things like this all the time and it makes them seem like they have split personalities. They appear to be for holy living, and yet on the other hand they also believe they can sin and still be saved at other times.
Here is another statement by OnceSavedAlwaysSaved.org:
“But the summer before my senior year of high school, my affections began to change. My heart grew cold toward Jesus and His church. When I graduated from youth group, I left church too. A private detective couldn’t have located my Bible. I began to go places no Christian should. I hung with people whose rebellion didn’t trouble their consciences—I had friends in low places.”
“But what happened? Did I lose my salvation during my late teenage years, only to regain it as a young adult? Some might think so, but I don’t. Scripture is clear that nothing can pluck a genuine believer from the hand of God (John 10:27-29)—not sin, not death, not Twisted Sister.”
“But what happened? Did I lose my salvation during my late teenage years, only to regain it as a young adult? Some might think so, but I don’t. Scripture is clear that nothing can pluck a genuine believer from the hand of God (John 10:27-29)—not sin, not death, not Twisted Sister.”
Source:
Can a Genuine Christian Backslide? - ETERNAL SECURITY (OSAS)
Lets understand something here. If a believer thinks they can backslide and be saved, then they surely can think they can commit other certain sins on occasion and be saved. Hence, it is not a straw man to say that OSAS teaches a license to sin on a certain level. Yes, there are OSAS groups that think you should never live holy and to even try is works righteousness, but at least they are being consistent with OSAS (even though they are justifying sin wrongfully).
Let me give you an example: Is a Christian saved if they looked upon a woman in lust, and they got hit by a bus and died instantly before they had a chance to confess of their sin?
If you say… “yes” that would be justifying sin because the Christian did not express remorse yet over that sin to the Lord in this life by faith in order for that sin to be forgiven according to 1 John 1:9.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
Sorry, I don’t hold to OSAS. You do. That’s why I asked you these questions. Seeing you don’t have an answer with Scripture, it should show you that OSAS is not biblical.
You said:
Again, Catholics believe in the Trinity, it does not invalidate such a teaching just because they happen to believe in that truth described in the Bible. The apostle John himself says there is a sin that does not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-17). The question is: Why don’t you believe him? Jesus basically said there are sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, and yet there is a related sin that leads to hellfire.
Matthew 5:22 (AMP)
“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother orharbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
You said:
There is no such label or condemnation of such a thing described in the Bible. That is merely your thinking here.
You said:
I think a person can look at the words “holier than thou” in a bad way or a good way. Of course, one can be proud and not be humble and they can boast in their holy living and be smug about it. Not sure how I have done that here. Not all Conditional Salvationists are the same or neither are all Conditional Salvationists walking with the Lord with their heart right with GOD. That does not invalidate the teaching of Conditional Salvation in the Bible. I imagine some Conditional Salvationists may boast in their righteousness, but the believers who are truly genuine with the Lord and walking holy will be humble and not do such a thing.
If a believer who is humble and living holy and not boasting of their righteousness (Because they cannot because all good they do is by the power of the Lord working in them), and they are among believers who are struggling with sin, they are technically living more holy than the believers who are not walking correctly yet. So they are holier than these others believers (Meaning they are technically “holier than thou” but they would never say that to others). They would rejoice in the Lord and be humble and serve by example and not Lord over the flock.
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
The NKJV?
Just as bad…
Well, so much for the mantra of “no doctrines are changed” from those who promote the new Bible per-versions.
Once Saved Always Saved is saved by corrupt Bibles in this point.
You should really take heed.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
mailmandan said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing primarily with our Initial Salvation. It’s the 1st aspect of our salvation in being saved by God’s grace through faith without works because one is first coming to the Lord Jesus and seeking His mercy and forgiveness and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No works are involved in this 1st aspect of salvation. But that does not undo the secondary aspect of salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with Initial Salvation because Paul says to the Ephesian believers that they have been quickened (made alive) (See: Ephesians 2:1). How many times is a believer quickened and WHEN does that happen? It happens just one time normally, and it happens when they first come to the Lord to be initially saved.
Romans 4:2-6 is also dealing with Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace through faith because Paul is fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism. For Paul says in the previous chapter, what profit is there in circumcision? Circumcision to be initially saved was a heresy that was addressed at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 (Please read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
You said:
So then works are a part of the salvation equation then because it shows evidence of one’s faith being genuine or true. So then it’s not faith alone. Works must be there to show a genuine faith. So works are necessary at a later time to show one is truly saved.
You said:
John was writing to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them or lead them astray (See; 1 John 2:26). So in 1 John 1:8, John is warning the brethren about a false gnostic belief (those who were trying to seduce them) that taught that sin is non-existent or an illusion. This makes sense because 1 John 1:10 says that these gnostics held to a false belief that said they have never sinned ever in the past. We both agree that we have sinned in the past, so 1 John 1:10 is clearly a false gnostic belief being spoke about here. 1 John 1:8 is dealing with the gnostic thinking that sin does not exist (in the present tense moment), and therefore John warns if we say we have no sin (if we do sin) we deceive ourselves. 1 John 1:9 is the proper remedy of dealing with sin instead of simply denying sin’s existence. OSAS Proponents deny sin partially. They believe sin exists physically, but yet they believe that on a spiritual level that a Christian’s sin is non-existent because Jesus paid for their future sins by their belief alone in Jesus as their Savior. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to the OSAS Proponent who denies sin partially. John tells the brethren to “sin not” in then next chapter (1 John 2:1). John says that we can know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4). So your view that we are always in sin according to 1 John 1:8 does not line up with a normal reading of 1 John 2:1, 1 John 2:3-4.
You said:
I believe the Modern Bibles are corrupted at this point when they say, “does not practice sin.” The King James more accurately renders this as “doth not commit sin.” This “doth not commit sin” is in view of willful or deliberate sin so as to justify sin. Meaning, the person who wrongfully commits sin (willfully or so as to justify sin) is thinking they cannot help but to sin at some point in the future and thus… they do so (either the next day, or next week or next month; Meaning, they erroneously think they are a slave to their sin). Therefore, “doth not commit sin” is not even exist in their mindset (because they falsely believe they must commit sin at some point their whole lives). This is justifying sin.
You said:
Well, first, a believer cannot have the mentality that they can abide in sin (that God condemns with warnings of hellfire or judgment) with the thinking that they are saved. Otherwise, they are not even at the gate to start the race because they have a wrong view on sin and its consequences. Sin must be confessed and forsaken in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). Second, to answer you: Matthew 25:21 says that we must be faithful over a few things to enter the joy of our Lord.
Matthew 25:21
“His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
However, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (See: Matthew 25:30).
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
if we were talking about eating the flesh and blood, You may have a point, but we are not..
Ridiculous. Using English as means to drive a translation choice is ridiculous. "Active indicative" doesn't establish your argument. It is very poor choice in translation.
"perfected for all time those who are made holy" is much better.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Notice how you just skipped over the actual greek words used.
I guess you did not like that they proved you wrong..
Don't out "over your skis"......
There are plenty of Modern translations that do not make this mistake.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Made holy fails also it would be more accurate to say ongoing or being made holy
present tense passive is the word used.
at any time in the present, God is passivly sanctifying us..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
that is a bad translation and does not fit the greek
Unless it, like perfected, Made holy or sanctified is perfect active indicative (a completed action) it is not yet completed..
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
I didn’t look into this in depth yet.
So far I know the NKJV and ESV corrupt the verse in question.
You haven't made that case. All you have done is look at some website and repeated part of what it says. You must make the case for this. It is not there. That is one of the reasons much better translations do not make the same mistake.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Oh I did did I?
No. I actually look up the greek words. Then instead of just looking up the definition. I looked up how they was written..I actually have a very good origional language library,
You should not assume things my friend..
I made the case, whether you buy it or not is not on me.
The fact is, The word perfected and sanctified/made holy are not written using the same language rules.[/QUOTE]
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I believe Sanctification is a process according to the Bible.
I believe Philippians 2:12 is in regards to our Sanctification. It says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
One big verse that teaches Sanctification is progressive is 2 Corinthians 7:1.
2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
“…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
There is the milk of the Word (Which is believing the gospel and being saved by God’s grace) (1 Corinthians 3:2), and then there is the meat of the Word which is discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). This is not an overnight process because it takes time to study and learn about God’s commands in the New Testament. There are approximately 400 or so of them according to my own personal study or list.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
The scriptures say we are sanctified.
The process is in obtaining sanctification, not being in different levels of sanctification.
Peace my friend.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter said:
No. Read Matthew 13:41-42 more carefully. It says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM. This means that these types that are in HIS KINGDOM will be gathered out and cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire) at the Judgment before Christ hands over his kingdom to God the Father.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10:14
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
Sometimes the Bible speaks of things from a hindsight or finished perspective. In other words, Hebrews 10:14 is in reference to the saints in whom God knows who will have endured to the end in their Sanctification. These saints were faithful unto death. These were the saints that are forever perfected. They are sanctified because they finished the race and run their course.
As for 1 Corinthians 6:11:
1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
This is talking about a different kind of sanctification. It’s the cleansing of the heart, mind, and soul by the Spirit in being born again spirit spiritually when we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior.
Besides, how do you interpret 2 Corinthians 7:1 as not describe a progressive form of holy living? To me, when I read that verse, that is what it sounds like it is describing.
In fact that we have to move on from the milk and on to the meat also show there is a progression in our walk with GOD, as well.
Most believers I know do not go from zero to hero overnight. It takes time to learn the Bible and apply it to our lives. We don’t have an instantaneous Matrix download transfer to be super saints the moment we are born again.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Why are we told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life in 1 Timothy 6:12 if Sanctification is not progressive?
Why are we told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if Sanctification is not progressive?
What do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 is saying?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Progressive Sanctification:
#1. 2 Corinthians 7:1 KJB
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
#2. Philippians 1:6 KJB
“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
Context:
“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;” (Philippians 1:9) (KJB).
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13) (KJB).
“That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15) (KJB).
“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;” (Philippians 1:9) (KJB).
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13) (KJB).
“That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15) (KJB).
#3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJB (Part 1)
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 KJB (Part 2)
“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.”
“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.”
#4. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJB
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
#5. 1 John 3:3 KJB
“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”
Context:
“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).
“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).
#6. Ephesians 5:25-27 KJB
“...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
Context:
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19).
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19).
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).
#7. Hebrews 13:20-21 KJB
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen”
#8. Colossians 4:12 KJB
“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
#9. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 KJB
“And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”
#10 Revelation 3:2 KJB
“Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.”
#11. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJB
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
#12. Hebrews 12:14 KJB
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”
#13. Titus 2:14 KJB
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
#14. 1 John 2:5 KJB
“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”
#15. James 1:21 KJB
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”
#16. 2 Timothy 2:21 KJB
“If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.”
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