Once Saved, Always Saved?

[praise_yeshua]

I see you don't know the original Calvinist teaching about OSAS.

Calvin didn't originate the Scriptures.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

IF "born of water" = John's baptism, then this remains required to enter heaven.

Who here has been baptised by John? Anyone?

Much love!

For the Jew it means relating to God in a works relationship, which most people do when they first hear the gospel. They start out relating to God in a law kind of relationship, and, hopefully, end up in a born again relationship with God. That is by God's design. Law first, grace second. His intent is that all men die by the law so they can live by the Spirit. Natural first, spiritual second. This theme goes all through scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For the Jew it means relating to God in a works relationship, which most people do when they first hear the gospel. They start out relating to God in a law kind of relationship, and, hopefully, end up in a born again relationship with God. That is by God's design. Law first, grace second. His intent is that all men die by the law so they can live by the Spirit. Natural first, spiritual second. This theme goes all through scripture.

The law was never given to Gentiles. All men are governed by the law of sin and death. Your construct is weak. It demands Jewish law for Gentiles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The original OSAS teaching taught that if you left God you were never really saved to begin with. The NEW OSAS says you are still saved if you leave God. The NEW OSAS is a horrible doctrine. An end-times doctrine of destruction, IMO.

I haven't heard of the new OSAS. So, they think someone can reject God, blaspheme against Him, sin all they want, worship Satan, etc. and still be saved? Wow. That's beyond ridiculous. Are there many people who believe that nonsense?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Calvin didn't originate the Scriptures.

I'm not here to argue OSAS either way. What I'm pointing out is OSAS has changed from what Calvin declared it to be during the Reformation and what it has become today. It's strange to see that just in the 15 years or so that I've been in online forums that almost nobody knows the original OSAS teaching anymore. It was very different than the NEW OSAS teaching spreading like wildfire in the church today.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law was never given to Gentiles. All men are governed by the law of sin and death. Your construct is weak. It demands Jewish law for Gentiles.

EVERYBODY, Jew and gentile alike, is convicted by and 'killed' by the law. The law was first in order to point us to Christ. Everybody is convicted by the law as a sinner and dies spiritually. This has nothing to do with who was given the law and who was not.

"19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Romans 3:19-20​

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not here to argue OSAS either way. What I'm pointing out is OSAS has changed from what Calvin declared it to be during the Reformation and what it has become today. It's strange to see that just in the 15 years or so that I've been in online forums that almost nobody knows the original OSAS teaching anymore. It was very different than the NEW OSAS teaching spreading like wildfire in the church today.

You're reading way too much into the teaching. It is simply the fact that God keeps those in Him. Some take that to mean they can do whatever they want. Some take it as requiring responsibility. The truth is somewhere in-between.

I've never meet anyone that can cease from sin. Nobody. Nada. Doesn't happen. Flesh is flesh. Our flesh is targeted for a future change. I look forward to this. I hope you do too....

Till then, With my mind I serve the Spirit. With my flesh..... well. Flesh is flesh. It is weak. It is failing. It gets weaker every day of my life. I can't remember everything I've ever known. I wish I could. I can't.

We are not impeccable. Receiving the Gift of God in Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord doesn't change this fact. We are still not impeccable.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I haven't heard of the new OSAS. So, they think someone can reject God, blaspheme against Him, sin all they want, worship Satan, etc. and still be saved? Wow. That's beyond ridiculous. Are there many people who believe that nonsense?

@BloodBought 1953 can fill you in on it.
I agree that it is beyond ridiculous. Most people who believe OSAS is true believe in this new version of it. It's very popular today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For the Jew it means relating to God in a works relationship, which most people do when they first hear the gospel. They start out relating to God in a law kind of relationship, and, hopefully, end up in a born again relationship with God. That is by God's design. Law first, grace second. His intent is that all men die by the law so they can live by the Spirit. Natural first, spiritual second. This theme goes all through scripture.

As was pointed out by praise_yeshua, you are not taking Gentiles into account here. Aren't Gentile believers also born of the Spirit? Surely, Gentiles are not obligated to follow the law (neither are Jews anymore). So, I don't buy what you're saying here at all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

EVERYBODY, Jew and gentile alike, is convicted by and 'killed' by the law. The law was first in order to point us to Christ. Everybody is convicted by the law as a sinner and dies spiritually. This has nothing to do with who was given the law and who was not.

"19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Romans 3:19-20​

Different laws. One is from the beginning. The law of sin and death that has ruled mankind in death since Adam's first sin.

The other one was ADDED......

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Many people don't pay attention to what they read. They just accept what others say it means. Paul clearly established that there is no Jewish law for Gentiles.....

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You're reading way too much into the teaching. It is simply the fact that God keeps those in Him. Some take that to mean they can do whatever they want. Some take it as requiring responsibility. The truth is somewhere in-between.

I've never meet anyone that can cease from sin. Nobody. Nada. Doesn't happen. Flesh is flesh. Our flesh is targeted for a future change. I look forward to this. I hope you do too....

Till then, With my mind I serve the Spirit. With my flesh..... well. Flesh is flesh. It is weak. It is failing. It gets weaker every day of my life. I can't remember everything I've ever known. I wish I could. I can't.

We are not impeccable. Receiving the Gift of God in Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord doesn't change this fact. We are still not impeccable.

The NEW OSAS isn't about just sinning the usual weak, but growing, life of the saved person. It says you can literally reject Christ in unbelief and go back to your life of sin and you are still saved. The reason being, salvation is by faith, not by what you do. They don't know that the original OSAS teaching said that if you went back to unbelief and your life of sin you were never really saved to begin with, not still saved despite your unbelief. Few know this about Calvin's original OSAS teaching. I'm genuinely shocked at how quickly the church abandoned and forgot about his OSAS teaching. Just in the last few years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@BloodBought 1953 can fill you in on it.
I agree that it is beyond ridiculous. Most people who believe OSAS is true believe in this new version of it. It's very popular today.

And how do you know that exactly? I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily, but I'd like to know how you know that. Was a survey of many people who believe in OSAS done or something?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As was pointed out by praise_yeshua, you are not taking Gentiles into account here. Aren't Gentile believers also born of the Spirit? Surely, Gentiles are not obligated to follow the law (neither are Jews anymore). So, I don't buy what you're saying here at all.

What I mean by 'law relationship' is 'works relationship'. Almost all believers start out in a works kind of relationship with God when they hear the gospel. That is the Ishmael that is born in a person in response to the word of God's promise. That 'birth' won't get you into the kingdom. Repentance is important, but it is the second birth, the spiritual birth that comes second that inherits the blessing. THat's the Isaac that is born in a person in response to the gospel. Like those twins and others in the Bible, they constantly battle against each other, but God assures us that the son born second, the spiritual son, the Isaac within us will rule over the son, Ishmael, born first. I know, that's deep stuff. But I assure you it's pure Bible.

 

[PinSeeker]

Oh, you think it's funny that you didn't give the impression that you read any further? That's interesting.

No, I thought it "funny" that you think I haven't read beyond Romans 11:6, or that I gave that impression. It was helpful in answering the specific point of discussion at the time.

Yes, you definitely are interpreting verses without taking scripture as a whole into account. No, you are not reading the passage carefully. Your doctrine is entirely based on taking many scriptures out of context.

Again, I'm sorry you think so. I would say the same the same thing to you.

Look at the passage again and try to be objective this time.

"Try to be objective"... another ridiculous statement. But again, I would encourage the same (looking at the passage again) to you.

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This clearly says that God "has bound EVERYONE over to disobedience". Did you somehow miss the word "everyone" there? He did that "so that he may have mercy on them ALL". That means He bound EVERYONE over to disobedience (are not all people disobedient sinners - Romans 3:23) so that He may have mercy on EVERYONE. I'm not surprised that you would just try to dismiss this passage since it clearly does not agree with your doctrine.

I dismiss absolutely nothing ~ nor do I "try to" ~ in the Bible, Spiritual Israelite. Absolutely nothing. So, with all due respect, I dismiss that accusation summarily.

Now. Objectively speaking... :)... Paul begins that particular passage (11:25-32) by saying in verse 25 that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (emphasis added, of course). And then yes, he wraps it up in verse 32 by saying "God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." The "all" is referring not to all people regardless whether they are part of Israel or not. If that were so, that would be entirely out of Paul's own context in speaking of... spiritual Israel (see what I did there? :)), God's Israel, which includes ethnic Jews and Gentiles... all believers of all ethnicities. In other words, Paul's "all" in verse 32 does not include all people, but all those who are of God's Israel only. Paul's context does not suddenly change somewhere between verse 25 and verse 32, as it seems you would have it. He does not suddenly change his context in verse 32. Again, the "all" encompasses only God's elect, God's Israel. That's Paul's context for, really, all of Romans 9 through 11.

So, you think God wants to have mercy on all people, but purposely keeps Himself from doing so? That is complete nonsense.

Well, God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." There is a necessary and purposeful discrimination in that. And then Paul states unequivocally, "So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." I'm sorry you think it's nonsense, but it is what it is.

Scripture also teaches that God wants all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). But you think He purposely makes it so that some can't possibly repent and be saved?

God's heart/desire is that all those whom He has created would come to knowledge of the truth and be saved. But He cannot be untrue to Himself, and thus He cannot not uphold His justice. We will surely agree that not all will be saved. And if His will were that all would be saved, they would be. But no, some He "(gives) up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator," as Paul says in Romans 1.

Salvation is the gift of God, not faith.

The whole kit and kaboodle, SI. All of it is a gift. You might remember that the Bible itself defines faith. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Who is it that gives this assurance and conviction, Spiritual Israelite? Do we do that for ourselves? I submit to you that we do not. What does Jesus say, Spiritual Israel, to Peter when Peter confesses that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God? He says, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." You might also remember that faith is a spiritual gift, a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9). So our faith is a work, but of God, not us.

Faith is not a work in the sense that Paul was talking about, so why you are trying to equate faith and works as if they are the same thing?

I'm not. It seems that's what you're doing. But if you are not, then good. Because it's not. To say faith is a work of man would be to say, essentially, that grace is not really grace, which is exactly what Paul is saying is not the case in... Romans 11:6.

So, why are you saying that Paul taught that salvation is not of our faith when all he said is that our salvation is not of our works?

I'm... not. I've been very clear about that. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, which... is not okay with me.

He said it's by grace through faith. Whose faith? Our personal faith in Christ just like many other scriptures teach like John 3:16.

Sure.

There was more, but... enough is enough. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And how do you know that exactly? I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily, but I'd like to know how you know that. Was a survey of many people who believe in OSAS done or something?

I said that after 15 years of an abundance of Bible discussions across Christian forums, it seems that now in these last few years few people know about the original OSAS teaching. OSAS used to be a simple Arminius vs. Calvin argument. Not any more. Few know Calvin's original teachings about OSAS. There was no other OSAS except Calvin's OSAS. Not anymore.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The NEW OSAS isn't about just sinning the usual weak, but growing, life of the saved person. It says you can literally reject Christ in unbelief and go back to your life of sin and you are still saved. The reason being, salvation is by faith, not by what you do. They don't know that the original OSAS teaching said that if you went back to unbelief and your life of sin you were never really saved to begin with, not still saved despite your unbelief. Few know this about Calvin's original OSAS teaching. I'm genuinely shocked at how quickly the church abandoned and forgot about his OSAS teaching. Just in the last few years.

Faith isn't unbelief.

You're fabricating nonsense. I don't care what you think Calvin said. John said clear that there is no such thing as a Spirit of God not involves in such nonsense.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

 

[praise_yeshua]

I said that after 15 years of an abundance of Bible discussions across Christian forums, it seems that now in these last few years few people know about the original OSAS teaching. OSAS used to be a simple Arminius vs. Calvin argument. Not any more. Few know Calvin's original teachings about OSAS. There was no other OSAS except Calvin's OSAS. Not anymore.

Have you provided reference yet? 15 years should have provided you with an abundance of material.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith isn't unbelief.

You're fabricating nonsense. I don't care what you think Calvin said. John said clear that there is no such thing as a Spirit of God not involves in such nonsense.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

I didn't fabricate the NEW OSAS. I'm calling it out.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I didn't fabricate the NEW OSAS. I'm calling it out.

This "New" version you're claiming now exists. Provide evidence.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Have you provided reference yet? 15 years should have provided you with an abundance of material.

@BloodBought 1953 is the NEW OSAS guru around here. Get with him. He'll probably get with you since I tagged him.

I can hardly ever have a discussion about sin in the context of OSAS without most people participating insisting that sin doesn't matter because salvation is not by works. That's 10,000 miles away from what the original OSAS by Calvin taught.