Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Ronald Nolette]

You claim there is no verse allowing angels to have wings. Neither is there a verse about the earth spinning. Joshua 10:12-14

"Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel."

Did the earth stop spinning, or did the sun stop moving?

Neither is there a verse about open heart surgery!

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

People have seen angels, there are no wings. I saw one myself.

Well when they take on human form they have no wings. But whether they have wings or not- is a very very trivial matter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I said Jesus returns on a horse. How is that forgetting? The horse is after the 42 months. The Second Coming is way before the the 42 months. Did you forget that the Second Coming will not include a horse? Where was the horse in 30AD? Does that horse have eternal life? How long had the horse lived before 30AD? Was it on the ark as well with Noah?

All your questions are irrelevant and silly.

Jesus comes back after the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Which is also includes the 42 months. When Jesus returns, He defeats the antichrist and his armies, has the sheep goat judgment, judges the nations and establishes His 1,000 year kingdom!

I havn't a clue how you think th ebible says Jesus comes back before the second half of the tribulation period. do you think the 42 months of Revelation are not part of the 70th week of Daniel?

 

[shilohsfoal]

This is a thread to discuss the invasion of Israel by the forces led by the Northern power. This thread is not for people that view Revelations and most prophesies as history or present. So here is the question, and it is from a standpoint of asking rather than knowing it all.

Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So could this be the start of the Tribulation, where the Rapture occurs? The start of God's wrath!?
This great war sounds like it is not the final war, where nations gathered (again in Israel) just when He returns to earth and destroys them all. The final in Rev 19 battle is similar in that birds are called to dispose of the dead people. Are these 2 different battles?
If so, why? If not, why?

Ezekiel 37 is about the resurection of Israel. This takes place after the tribulation. Those who were killed during the tribulation for thier witness of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or recieve its mark take part in this resurection.
Ezekiel 38 takes place 1000 years after Ezekiel 37.Gog invades the promised land not knowing Israel is safe even though it has no walls or physical defences.

 

[ewq1938]

Well when they take on human form they have no wings.

That "human form" is their natural form. Never once in the bible is a mention of this "transformation" nor one mention of an angel with wings. Sure, it's not overly important but I think accuracy is important because small things can end up causing bigger issues sometimes.

 

[Keraz]

You mean what YOU ARE PUTTING OUT is error, because I never mentioned Amos. You might want to catch up on The New Testament revelations instead relying ONLY on the Old Testament Scriptures.

Jesus said: Signs will appear in the sun, moon and stars, on earth people will stand helpless; not knowing which way to turn from the roar and surge of the sea. People will faint from terror, seeing all that is to come upon the world.
AFTER that; Then; they will see the Lord coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This proves that the Sixth Seal cosmic and earthly disaster must happen before the Return. At least 7 years before the Return.
Your failure to address Amos 5:18-20, which vividly describes the Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal, shows your inability to see how the OT Prophesies are confirmed and reinforced by the NT Prophesies.

 

[Timtofly]

All your questions are irrelevant and silly.

Jesus comes back after the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Which is also includes the 42 months. When Jesus returns, He defeats the antichrist and his armies, has the sheep goat judgment, judges the nations and establishes His 1,000 year kingdom!

I havn't a clue how you think th ebible says Jesus comes back before the second half of the tribulation period. do you think the 42 months of Revelation are not part of the 70th week of Daniel?

Jesus the Messiah the Prince is the 70th week of Daniel 9. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as Prince. The life of Jesus on earth is the last week of the 70 weeks. 69 weeks until Jesus. The 70th week has been on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[dad]

Ezekiel 37 is about the resurection of Israel. This takes place after the tribulation. Those who were killed during the tribulation for thier witness of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or recieve its mark take part in this resurection.
Ezekiel 38 takes place 1000 years after Ezekiel 37.Gog invades the promised land not knowing Israel is safe even though it has no walls or physical defences.

Looking at a few aspects of that battle, the end of the 1000 yrs is not a good fit. It talks of every man's sword being against one another. The swords were beaten into farm instruments long long before the end of the millennium. There is no mention of some great battle at the end of that time either, God simply destroys them with fire when they surround the camp of the saints. Then it talks of how the nations will be awed and give Him glory when they see this. The thing is all the earth is burned and made new, so where would you think those nations would be? Also, who cares about a shaking in Israel when the world is gone and made new? How much shaking is involved in burning to a crisp some rebels that surround the camp of saints? Then God mentions how it was prophesied that nations would come against Israel in the end. That is about the Tribulation time. The phrase 'latter days' is also a clue about when. I also do not see how people who have lived under the direct rule of God and His people for many many centuries would think they had any hope whatsoever of leaving the camp of the saints with great booty! Their best hope would almost certainly be that they thought they might kill them before their little suicide mission ended!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ezekiel 37 is about the resurection of Israel. This takes place after the tribulation. Those who were killed during the tribulation for thier witness of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or recieve its mark take part in this resurection.
Ezekiel 38 takes place 1000 years after Ezekiel 37.Gog invades the promised land not knowing Israel is safe even though it has no walls or physical defences.

Wrong,! If you read carefully you will find it is Israel being restored as a nation to her land in 37 and in 38-39 it is Israel being attacked by Russia and some nations.

Teh Rev. 20 god invasion involves the whole earth.

Teh Ez. gog invasion shows Russia destroyed on the foothills and a revival among the peoples.

REv. 20 god invasion results in the great white throne judgment!

These are massive differences that cannot just be allegorized away!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That "human form" is their natural form. Never once in the bible is a mention of this "transformation" nor one mention of an angel with wings. Sure, it's not overly important but I think accuracy is important because small things can end up causing bigger issues sometimes.

And never once does it say angels in heaven look just like people! that is conjecture on your part. So when the Bible is silent- we should shut up!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus the Messiah the Prince is the 70th week of Daniel 9. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as Prince. The life of Jesus on earth is the last week of the 70 weeks. 69 weeks until Jesus. The 70th week has been on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Wow do you know how to mess up Scripture!

Sorry but the Prince of Daniel 9 that enforces as trong covenant with Israel is not Jesus! Grammar forbids it and remember God is the author of Grammar.

Daniel 9:26-27
King James Version

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Easy grammar lesson for you that you should have been taught by 8th grade if you had competent teachers.

The he in verse 27 refers back to teh nearest antecedent that matches itr in case, gender and number. So that He is the prince of the people that will destroy the sanctuary.

Jesus did not destroy teh sanctuary, Romans did, so the prince that shall come will be a Roman prince or roman ruler. Verse 26 about eh Messiah is not connected at all with the thought of verse 27.

This is how to understand this sentence in every language for the rule fo grammar which god created is the same in all languages!

 

[Keraz]

Jesus comes back after the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Which is also includes the 42 months. When Jesus returns, He defeats the antichrist and his armies, has the sheep goat judgment, judges the nations and establishes His 1,000 year kingdom!

Jesus the Messiah the Prince is the 70th week of Daniel 9. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as Prince. The life of Jesus on earth is the last week of the 70 weeks. 69 weeks until Jesus. The 70th week has been on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

You are both wrong.
The glorious Return of Jesus is after the 70th 'week', the final 7 years of this Church age, is over. Proved by Revelation 15:1 + 19:11, Matthew 24:29-30

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are both wrong.
The glorious Return of Jesus is after the 70th 'week', the final 7 years of this Church age, is over. Proved by Revelation 15:1 + 19:11, Matthew 24:29-30

Well as I know that is biblically true, I don't know how you said I don't know this fact.

 

[ewq1938]

And never once does it say angels in heaven look just like people!

Wrong. People saw angels but thought they were human men.

 

[Davy]

Jesus said: Signs will appear in the sun, moon and stars, on earth people will stand helpless; not knowing which way to turn from the roar and surge of the sea. People will faint from terror, seeing all that is to come upon the world.
AFTER that; Then; they will see the Lord coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This proves that the Sixth Seal cosmic and earthly disaster must happen before the Return. At least 7 years before the Return.
Your failure to address Amos 5:18-20, which vividly describes the Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal, shows your inability to see how the OT Prophesies are confirmed and reinforced by the NT Prophesies.

Nope, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and Apostles Paul and Peter gave specific events that are to happen on that same day.

1. A "sudden destruction" upon the wicked:

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

The "as travail upon a woman with child" is from the OT analogy about the harlot being with child when Jesus comes, from Isaiah 54 and Luke 23:29. It means one who did not wait for Jesus but instead fell away to the false Messiah that comes first, means having played the spiritual harlot against Jesus, and are found spiritually travailing with child. It's the 'barren' womb symbolically for Christ's faithful used to represent their having waited for Jesus, and remained spiritually barren, as a "chaste virgin" (2 Corinthians 11). If you're not grasping these Biblical analogies written in God's Word then you are missing many anchors about the 'end' that God put in His Word.


2. Destruction of Man's Works Off the Earth:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV


3. Jesus Said He Comes "as a thief":

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV


All that above happens on the SAME day when Jesus returns "as a thief" (Revelation 16:15).

When God's consuming fire happens ON THAT DAY WHEN JESUS COMES, there is no way the "great tribulation" and beast kingdom can exist any longer. It is destroyed on that SAME day. That also means the battle of Armageddon happens ON THAT SAME DAY of Christ's coming.

The trap you have fallen into is with trying to separate those events apart from each other simply because of how God's written Word covers those events in several Scriptures, kind of spread out, even between OT and NT. What you should have noticed instead... were the symbolic connections with those events to show they happen together, like I showed above about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" linked with Jesus saying He comes "as a thief" to fight Armageddon.

 

[Keraz]

All that above happens on the SAME day when Jesus returns "as a thief" (Revelation 16:15).

You simply fail to see the difference of the Lord's coming in Judgment and punishment of the world, the Sixth Seal event, with His glorious Return to reign for the next thousand years. There is no mention of fire at the Return: Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21

It is actually quite disgusting and rude to think and say; the Return will be like a thief in the night. Such an idea is totally contrary to the many prophesies we have about the Return, when every person will see Him arrive.

Is it too hard to realize that there must come some kind of dramatic event to commence all the Prophesied end time events?
This truth seems very difficult to grasp for most people. What is coming, suddenly and unexpectedly; will be our great test by fire, as 1 Peter 4:12 clearly tells us.

 

[Davy]

You simply fail to see the difference of the Lord's coming in Judgment and punishment of the world, the Sixth Seal event, with His glorious Return to reign for the next thousand years. There is no mention of fire at the Return: Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21

It is actually quite disgusting and rude to think and say; the Return will be like a thief in the night. Such an idea is totally contrary to the many prophesies we have about the Return, when every person will see Him arrive.

Saying something like the above is actually a MOCKERY directly against what Jesus said...

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

 

[Timtofly]

Wow do you know how to mess up Scripture!

Sorry but the Prince of Daniel 9 that enforces as trong covenant with Israel is not Jesus! Grammar forbids it and remember God is the author of Grammar.

Daniel 9:26-27
King James Version

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Easy grammar lesson for you that you should have been taught by 8th grade if you had competent teachers.

The he in verse 27 refers back to teh nearest antecedent that matches itr in case, gender and number. So that He is the prince of the people that will destroy the sanctuary.

Jesus did not destroy teh sanctuary, Romans did, so the prince that shall come will be a Roman prince or roman ruler. Verse 26 about eh Messiah is not connected at all with the thought of verse 27.

This is how to understand this sentence in every language for the rule fo grammar which god created is the same in all languages!

You cannot get it straight either. The verse says confirmed the covenant with many. You changed "many" to "Israel". Jesus is the only Prince in these verses. Jesus is the only Lamb of God dealing with the Atonement Covenant. As Messiah, Jesus provided the covenant. As Prince, Jesus confirms the covenant. The only covenant that gives the promises of Daniel 9:24 was the Atonement Covenant on the Cross.

You all have this made up human imagination of some earth human making an agreement with Israel. Makes for "good" movies and reading entertainment. Not God's Word though.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You cannot get it straight either. The verse says confirmed the covenant with many. You changed "many" to "Israel". Jesus is the only Prince in these verses. Jesus is the only Lamb of God dealing with the Atonement Covenant. As Messiah, Jesus provided the covenant. As Prince, Jesus confirms the covenant. The only covenant that gives the promises of Daniel 9:24 was the Atonement Covenant on the Cross.

You all have this made up human imagination of some earth human making an agreement with Israel. Makes for "good" movies and reading entertainment. Not God's Word though.

You are wrong because when you read the bible you seem to throw out grammar!

The word confirmed there does not mean what you think it does! It is not the same as we define it today. And the many is with Israel! Context demands it! It is with the many in Israel.

YOu see the word covenant and you force Dan. 9:27 to mean the New covenant which it does not mean that.

Jesus is Messiah the Prince, but He is not the Prince of the people who destroy the sanctuary. If you read the Bible as you are supposed to, you would know that!

So you say jesus confirms teh covenant- so the New covenant is only for 7 years then according to you! Well thank God it is not HIs Word!

Also in the middle fo the 70th week, which has not occurred yet- Jesus did not cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease!

 

[Keraz]

Saying something like the above is actually a MOCKERY directly against what Jesus said...

So is Revelation 19:11-14, the way thieves come?

The event in which Jesus does come unexpectedly, is the Sixth Seal; His terrible Day of vengeance and fiery wrath.
Only confusion results if they are thought to be one and the same Day as His Return.