This is where you view doesn't work in my mind. God's spiritual temple is true.
Much love!
Once Saved, Always Saved?
- Thread starter RR144
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Much love!
Absolutely not. That is an impossible conclusion to reach without refuting what Paul says in that very passage, that He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... is thus the Molder and we are the molded, is thus the potter and we the clay... that some are prepared for destruction and others prepared beforehand for glory.
Sure, He could have not created them at all and thus not had to endure them at all, much less with patience (grace).
Sure, but His patience toward believers and unbelievers are not toward the same end. His patience toward believers is because of His perfect faithfulness and results in salvation and ultimately resurrecting them to eternal life, but His patience toward believers is a grace for a time (while they live) but ultimately ends in their being resurrected to judgment.
Of course not, because John Calvin only commented on Romans 9 (as well as the rest of Scripture) at least 1500 years after it was written. You know this. My goodness. But John Calvin was right about Romans 9. :)
God can could have based His choices/promises on anything, I guess, but as I have said, God does everything He does for His own good pleasure and His glory.
Correct, but we have to understand who the Jews really are in God's economy. I think if you'll read back in Romans 2, particularly verse 28 and 29, and then ahead in Romans 11:25-26, you will see:
"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (2:28-29)
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (11:25-26)
There was no such choice made. Melchizedek foreshadows Jesus, Who is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek rather than after the order of the Levitical priesthood. We could say a lot about this, but this it a total tangent and a total misdirection on your part.
Not the Gentiles, per se, but God's Israel, true Jews, whose praise is from God, His elect, which includes both ethnic Jew and Gentile. people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.
Right...
Nope. God's gracious choice. His sovereign choice regarding who He gives mercy/compassion to (and by inference whom he does not).
Calvinism/Schmalvinism... What's true is true.
Again, Calvinism/shmalvinism. Paul is very clear in these two verses (as if he's not clear in all passages of Scripture attributed to his hand):
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..."
It is what it is. Any condition was based on Him and not on us.
Yes, for sure; we are all one ~ those of us who God has had mercy/compassion on ~ in Christ Jesus. So this is all one corporate group, for sure, but we each make our own choices, so it's also individual. And to say even Paul is speaking only of the corporate is to take him out of his context, and not only him, but Moses also, whom Paul quotes (and Moses is quoting God): "'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' ... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
A group, but a group made up of individuals. See immediately above. :)
Anyway, ah, yes, the old "foreknew" misunderstanding. Romans 8:29 says "...those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." Yes, but let's think about this. Paul cannot mean "foreknew" in the sense that He knew what they would do beforehand, because in that sense, He foreknows everyone and everything. And the reason he cannot mean "foreknew" in this sense is that he it talking about a specific group of people that He foreknew. Secondly, that verb "knew" (cutting off the prefix "fore" for simplicity's sake) should be understood as it is meant in the Hebrew of the Old Testament (because that's where it's drawn from). We can find examples everywhere, but even in Genesis, where Adam knew Eve and Eve conceived a son (Genesis 4:1). Well of course Adam "knew who Eve was" ~ she was the only woman on earth at the time... :) ~ but rather than mere cognitive understanding, it is virtually synonymous with "loved." So coming back to Romans 8:29, we can actually read that verse as "...those He foreloved." And the implication is the same, that God didn't ~ before the foundation of the world ~ love others in the same sovereign, distinguishing way as He did His elect.
Well yes, that's entirely incorrect, and John Calvin (and thus no Calvinist worth his salt) did not (would not) even suggest such a thing. God is not the author of sin.
Yeah, He did no such thing. His grace is that He chooses to save some ~ rather than no one ~ from the consequences of their sin. He would be perfectly just to leave all in their sin, and thus no one would be saved. All justly deserve His condemnation. But some, in His sovereign, distinguishing love and mercy, are placed in Christ Jesus. And therefore for them, there is no more condemnation (Romans 8:1), and they therefore inherit eternal life. This is grace. This is the Gospel.
Grace and peace to you.
Last edited:
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Christ made it clear. There is falseness in his kingdom, and it will be purged out by fire at the end of the age:
40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness." Matthew 13:40-41
The falseness the planter and builder in God's field and building is adding to the kingdom of God will have his workmanship exposed for what it is, and he will have no reward for his labor and will barely pass through the fires of judgment himself for the slothful, unfaithful performance of the task that was entrusted to him. That's assuming the worker is even saved himself. Otherwise, he too will be destroyed.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Works whether good or not are not people.
God elects, calls, converts, edifies, justifies and glorifies. That passage is talking about rewards we get for Christians witnessing, ministries, etc., our cooperation with His work of creating new creatures.
I think you are misunderstanding the passage. There is a judgment upon non-believers. Christians don't have anything to do with their final state. The blind lead the blind. Evil works among the lost! So true Christians do not lead people to Hell fire.
Judgment for Christians are concernwd with whether our deeds focused on things eternal or not. The time we spent on freshly things that are not ordained by God will be burned up.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It is in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15. The work specifically being spoken about is the work of planting and watering God's field, and building God's building. When you plant and water a field, or build a building, the field and building is your work. If you were building a house and I wanted to test your work, I would not come to you. I would go to the building you built and test it:
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I think eternal relationships are rewards, especially if we had something to do with their salvation.
I just don't think the 1 Cor. 3 passages refer in any way to reprobates as being some of our contributive works.
Here I would defer to the scholarly commentary of RC Sproul that I shared over Ferris Bueller's.
Last edited:
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Haven't you ever ministered to anyone just to find out they simply aren't going to genuinely come to Christ, or live for him? That labor will yield no reward for you at the return of Christ. Because the reward is that person (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20).
I'm well aware of the popular interpretation of the passage. Over time I realized they just flat missed it on this one (like they did with tithing, for example). I have found that the Bible interprets itself. Paul was steeped in the OT. And so much of his teaching is inspired by OT themes. This is one of those teachings, though it can stand on it's own from the context of the NT alone, as I have shown. Perhaps the biggest failure of the church is it's failure to read things in the context of all of the Bible. The church will harp on local context within a certain passage, all the while it misses the context of all of the Bible. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most churches have been taught that everything to the left of Matthew is for all intents and purposes useless and null and void, and so they don't know those scriptures very well, not knowing those are the very scriptures from which so much of Paul's inspiration and teaching comes from.
Last edited:
Relationships, that's the way Paul spoke.
". . . for YOU are the crown of our rejoicing in the presence of the Lord."
And glory, "those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to rightousness like the stars of heaven forever."
Much love!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
We plant seeds that lie dormant. The seeds planted in my Mom's rebellious heart took thirty years to germinate. We just don't when they will come. We don't know what God is doing in their lives nor how much more that needs to be done to prepare their hearts. Some come to God in their death bed - like my Mom did.
Scripture supports scripture and Paul was inspired by God. Prior to that, Saul had the OT scriptures yet he was led by his own blindness to persecute Christians.
The Body of Christ has not failed. To imply that is to say God failed us. He ia the Author of our faith. The Church is right in track. God just factors in all our blunders into His Perfect Plan.
Please don't deflect off topic and start to make broad generizations as if that can support your view.
Last edited:
So true! I've had a lifetime full of those who talk about the "failed church".
Much love!
Amen! That's OSAS.
Written to Christians:
Romans 11:22 (NKJV)
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
OSASers are the most judgmental people on earth! I think it's against forum rules.
If OSASers are wrong they certainly can lose, forever. If OSASers are right I CAN'T lose. Satan LOVES the OSAS doctrine!
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Once Saved, Always Saved?
OP ^
Key Word...Sav-ed. Accomplish-ed.
That is accomplished by Gods Works!
Who can undo Gods Works?
A widdle human? LOL LOL LOL!!!
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
Key Word...Sav-ed. Accomplish-ed.
That is accomplished by Gods Works!
Who can undo Gods Works?
A widdle human? LOL LOL LOL!!!
Glory to God,
Taken
Anyone who disputes OSAS is damned and judged as unsaved according to OSASers. That's FACT! Whom did I judge? Nobody!
Regardless of any kind of acronym, label, or any other kind of demagoguery, anyone who reads Scripture should easily be able to understand that God's salvation, once given by God, cannot be lost, because of God's invincible power to save. Nothing can separate those who are in Christ from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:39-40), and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, "He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end" (Philippians 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2); He gets what He intends. Satan knows this very well and hates this, because He knows that no matter how hard he tries with any of God's elect, though he may discourage them and even drive them to despair at times ~ as he did Job ~ in the end, he cannot win; they will ultimately be lost to him forever ~ as Job was.
Grace and peace to you.
Similar threads
