Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Timtofly]

No. The folks in heaven are coming back to earth to have their bodies raised. What they need to wait for before that happens is for the trib to be over so all that will be martyred will be martyred. Then Jesus returns with the saints. For the Bride who was already raptured, we already have our new body. We had our body raised from the dead if we died before the Rapture, and our living bodies raised if we were still alive. If people are killed in the tribulation, they would not have had their dead bodies raised from the dead yet would they?

So you accept Paul when you think Paul says they need bodies? They don't need bodies. They already have them. Yet you don't think the rapture and Second Coming happen at the same time in those same verses where you think those currently in Paradise need bodies? Only those on earth need a new body. Those currently in Paradise have a permanent incorruptible physical body, per 2 Corinthians 5:1. All the dead have risen first and have been changed ongoing always before those still alive. That is not a future event. That is a constant ongoing reality for every generation is to assume they are the one's who will be alive.

No one was waiting for 2,000 years to be that generation. Every single generation for the last 1992 years thought they were that soon Coming generation. No one taught: "ok around 1950, that will be the soon generation". Every single generation was the "soon" generation. Every generation was supposed to spread the gospel and be prepared for the Second Coming. That was the message from the OD. Especially after 70AD. There was no Jerusalem to have armies attacking it and the Jews. The Second Coming obviously did not happen where Jesus set up His earthly throne in Jerusalem.

For hundreds of years there was utter desolation on the temple site. It was not until a Muslim rebuilt Jerusalem and the walls and set up a mosque, did the city see life again. But it was not a fulfilment of any Scripture. Israel did not bloom until 1948. If there was any sign or fulfilment from the OD that was the first. Unless you claim the AoD was the rebuilding of Jerusalem by a Muslim during the dark ages and we have had hundreds of years of the greatest tribulation ever known to mankind and the Second Coming happened before the fig tree bloomed, you may want to look at Matthew 24:15-34 in a reverse order than Jesus gave. I think the AoD is the last event, then the GT, then the Second Coming, and the fig tree blooming is the first event in that order.

If the Second Coming happens before the fig tree blooming then that generation would have been born after the Second Coming. Jesus said some of the generation of the fig tree would live to see all those events mentioned, which means the fig tree comes first. Then the Second Coming happens after that in reverse order. The gospel being preached is still the last thing before the very end. But Jeus did not say by whom in Matthew's account. Revelation 14:6

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

The church is not spreading the Gospel at this point. The church is gone. It is an angel tasked with the gospel at the very end. The rapture and Second Coming already happened. Matthew 13 explains Jesus and the angels are on earth sowing and reaping the wheat harvest. This is not the church. The church already left at the Second Coming when Jesus as Prince came to earth with His angels. So Jesus in Matthew 13, and John in Revelation 14 explains it is angels spreading the Gospel, not even the church. So the church is not here to the very end because the gospel does not end when the church ends. The Gospel does not stop. What stops is the church and the fulness of the Gentile harvest. The church will not see the AoD. The church will not see the GT. The church only sees the fig tree blooming, and the Second Coming. Those people in the first century did not see any of those events listed in Matthew 24. They did see the armies approaching in Luke's account. Luke 21:20-21 is the closest thing from the OD that we get concerning the first century. It even declares Jerusalem will be desolate.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

This desolation was not the AoD. This was the hundreds of years Jerusalem was left desolate. Each Gospel gives bits and pieces of the OD. Mark even gives a slightly different order than Matthew does. That means the author could have arranged the events in a certain order even if Jesus actually gave them in a totally different arrangement in the actual spoken event. The Holy Spirit was also involved, to help in remembering, so it was not just one writers opinion of what what said over another writers opinion of what they remembered. The point is they were not all the exact same words nor necessarily in the exact same order Jesus gave. They were four different accounts since Revelation is also a version, that John did not just hear then, but was caught up and literally experienced the events in real time. I would think the order given in Revelation would be the correct order to measure the other 3 accounts against. That and what has actually happened in the historical record.

What we know is that Ezekiel's armies was not Rome of 70AD. So this Ezekiel war is not recorded in the Bible as being mentioned in the OD. We do know many fled in 66-67, when the Roman armies first advanced, so Luke was covered in the follow up to 70AD, but not necessarily 70AD itself. Then Preterist try to shoe horn the whole of the OD into that period, but would be wrong in doing so.

The point is that when a soul leaves earth, they can only do so by receiving a new permanent incorruptible physical body. The words "souls under the alter" is symbolic. It is not literal souls stuffed under a literal alter. They would not all fit, for one, if the alter was literal, even if a soul needed no space to begin with. A literal soul having form to fit under a literal alter is the issue. It is mixing metaphors. "Being killed" is just symbolic of passing from death into life. For some it is physical death. For others it is just change. That is why Paul says all will be changed, and not all will die, ie killed to enter eternal life. Paul points out all will be changed. John points out all will be killed. They both are the same point of instantly experiencing 2 Corinthians 5:1.

The only time literal souls waited and tasted death, was called "sleep" in the OT. David said, "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil". This was called Abraham's bosom. At the Cross Abraham's bosom was emptied and all the OT redeemed left Abraham's bosom and physically entered Paradise. Matthew 27 shows they had a physical body. Not all came out of their graves in Jerusalem, but came out of their graves wherever they had left earth. Jerusalem was just one of many places on earth, and the only one mentioned. The church does not all have to travel to Jerusalem to be caught up at the Second Coming. They will be caught up all over the earth from where their physical location is. So Jerusalem was not the only location bodies came out of their graves. God will work the same way at the future event as what happened all over the earth in 30AD. There were OT redeemed buried all over the earth. Contrary to some popular opinion that the redeemed were only within 100 miles of Jerusalem, at all times, prior to the Gospel being spread by the NT church. Remember that at the Cross the soul was coming out of sheol into a body.

 

[dad]

The meat of the Book of Ezekiel was written to, and about, the "house of Israel". Now if you had done your homework in study of Old Testament history, you would know who that "house of Israel" represents after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, in Solomon's day (1 Kings 11).

But instead, you are rebellious against God's Word, and seek to push your own word.

Is that really all it represents?

 

[Timtofly]

Right, that is why we are Raptured, not them. (except the saved ones)

At the Second Coming bodies will be collected from all over Paradise to meet those from the earth who now have new bodies. No one is coming out of sheol at that point who need a new body. No one is even coming out of sheol in Revelation 20:4. John explains that those in sheol still have to wait another 1,000 years. They are still signified as the rest of the dead. None of them have a body so still considered dead, and still just souls waiting in torment. Souls under the alter is symbolic even if a soul is a literal thing and an alter is a literal thing. In this case of the 5th Seal the phrase is symbolic even if both nouns can be considered literal. No one in Paradise is in a state of death period, which is only having a soul and not a body. Paul also explained that in 1 Corinthians 15 way before pointing out the Second Coming. Paul said if there is no literal bodily resurrection, then all is in vain and Paul literal said "The Cross never happened". Those are Paul's terms of conditions not mine.

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

Paul was already teaching a bodily resurrection at this point. He did not change his stance here:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

In this verse the only dead are those alive on earth in Adam's dead flesh. This word raised in this verse is the rapture, not a resurrection of dead bodies buried in the ground. Who is the we needing to be changed? Only those alive when it happens. Yes all have been changed. Those in Paradise have already been changed, or they would have to wait in Abraham's bosom and be resurrected. Jesus said after the Cross, no one would taste death who followed Him. So no one who is redeemed went to Abraham's bosom, waiting for a bodily resurrection. All have passed from death (Adam's dead flesh) into eternal life (a permanent incorruptible physical body) in Paradise. Being caught up to the third heaven is in a physical body. Being caught up to meet those whom Christ brings with Him is the 6th Seal event, and all on earth will see it happen. And no one can say it happens on this day and this hour in time, because no one will know, until God says, "It is time". Then will be the sign of the Second Coming. Then will be the actual Second Coming.

 

[dad]

The Zechariah 13 Scripture is very simple, IF... one will simply read it and heed it...

Zech 13:6-9
6 And one shall say unto him, "What are these wounds in thine hands?" Then he shall answer, "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Just Who might that above be about? Lord Jesus Who was wounded upon His cross. So already, this Scripture is pointing to later involving Christ's crucifixion.

7 Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.

That is even the prophecy of Jesus' disciples scattering to prevent being captured by the Romans during Christ's crucifixion. Smite the shepherd is a symbol for Christ's crucifixion. So these Zechariah 13 Scriptures have a CHRISTIAN theme all about it involving Lord Jesus Christ.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
KJV

If two thirds are cut off and die, and only one third left, then who might that one third left represent, since the previous verses were pointing DIRECTLY to JESUS CHRIST??!!

Zec was about Jesus returning to earth and the Jews getting saved in the end. Not about thousands of years ago.

No brainer, the one third left who go through that fire (testing of the great tribulation), represent Christ's FAITHFUL CHURCH.

It is one thing to connect the dots. It is another thing to splatter dots all over and imagine some great painting.

 

[dad]

Jesus is the 70th week because He was on earth as Messiah for half of the 7 years and then cut off. Jesus was not cut off between the end of the 69th week and the start of the 70th week.

He was killed when He was here. That was after 69 weeks. There is no week after that save the final week of history. That did not start thousands of years ago, and when it does start, it will last seven years, not centuries.

When Jesus was baptized the 70th week began.

The time of Jacob's trouble, the time unlike any other time before or after, did not start yet. Certainly not thousands of years ago.

When Jesus ascended,

Prove that it was 1260 days from His Baptism till ascension? A covenant has to be signed that is broken mid way. What agreement was broken or signed?? Where did the horses, such as the white horse and black horse march in that three years? When was Israel invaded in that time? Etc etc etc etc

the 70th week was put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles was complete. The Second Coming happens when God declares the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. It is the end of the church harvest. No more church will ever be harvested again, ever. Then the 70th week ends with Jesus as Prince on the earth. When the 7th Trumpet starts sounding that means the 70th week is over. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding those 6 things become reality from Daniel 9:24.

Why pretend that is even somewhat biblical?

Those promises last the whole 1,000 years. They don't start at the end of the 1,000 years.

Why insert the 1000 years here? Usually it should be for some reason. What promises, exactly start at the end of that time?

The Second Coming and rapture happen at the 6th Seal, at the same time.

Rev 16:
Revelation 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath

After Babylon is burned with fire, there are still ships trading at sea. There are still kingdoms. The Antichrist is still to rise with the ten kings. That could not possibly be when He returns!

 

[Timtofly]

We are never promised Heaven. Please show me a verse that says we are promised Heaven or that at the resurrection, we go to heaven with that word “heaven” in the phrase. We are promised paradise on earth. We are promised the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven and we are promised to reign on Earth.

Where do you think the church waits now? In the New Jerusalem? Have they been sent through time? They are not on earth. They are not in sheol, Abraham's bosom. So either they were sent through time and stopped existing in this reality, or they are currently enjoying Paradise, which when with the Lord has only been two literal days. Which is a form of time travel. Time moving at different relational speeds to each other. They have experienced two days and two nights. Revelation 7:

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

Or they have had the same literal time as on earth, serving tens of thousands of days and nights. Yet still they are somewhere and doing something in physical bodies. Every hour for the last 1900+ years people have been leaving this tent for a permanent building. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

No one has slept since the Cross. That is tasting death, the OT lingo for the soul entering Abraham's bosom. This all "not sleeping" applied to the thief on the Cross. He physically entered Paradise that day, the second his soul left this tent for the permanent building in Paradise. When Stephen was about to be stoned he physically saw Jesus standing waiting for him, which greatly angered those condemning him even more. They were taught that could not happen until the last day resurrection when their Messiah would resurrect the dead. They like you seem to have missed that last day resurrection a few months back when they hung Jesus on a Cross. Now Stephen tells them this same Jesus was standing next to God waiting for his physical arrival. Acts 6:54-58

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him."

You really think, Stephen saw Jesus, but then was told, to wait indefinitely, and where is Stephen waiting? When Paul said flesh and blood, he was not ruling out a physical body. In fact the new physical body is a permanent building. The tent is the dead flesh and blood. A soul is not a permanent building, like the soul was not a tent. The image of God currently in Paradise is a permanent incorruptible physical body. Paul was saying Adam's dead flesh could not enter. In fact until the Cross no soul could enter Paradise either. That is why the soul tasted death, called sleep, in Abraham's bosom until the Cross. Once the physical Atonement was a reality on earth. (It had already been a reality to God since before creation.) Once the Cross happened, then the Garden was no longer sealed by an angel, but the doors were opened to all covered by the Atonement. Those since the Cross do not wait in Abraham's bosom. They like Paul taught are instantly physically in Paradise.

 

[dad]

So you accept Paul when you think Paul says they need bodies? They don't need bodies. They already have them.

But are their bodies like Jesus? It is one thing to be with Him in heaven, but who says we have a physical and spirit body there like Him? Spiritual, yes. If the people who died in Christ have their bodies raised up from the dead, where do you think they were before that? We go to be with Him when we die. So they were with Him, obviously. Yet their former bodies are raised from the dead. Why?

Yet you don't think the rapture and Second Coming happen at the same time in those same verses where you think those currently in Paradise need bodies?

That is not related to the Rapture or 2nd coming.

No one was waiting for 2,000 years to be that generation.

How would you know? Maybe all thought they may be it.

For hundreds of years there was utter desolation on the temple site. It was not until a Muslim rebuilt Jerusalem and the walls and set up a mosque, did the city see life again. But it was not a fulfilment of any Scripture. Israel did not bloom until 1948.

I disagree that it bloomed. I think that refers to later when they are saved and He returns. About all we can say is that it exists as a nation.

If there was any sign or fulfilment from the OD that was the first. Unless you claim the AoD was the rebuilding of Jerusalem by a Muslim during the dark ages and we have had hundreds of years of the greatest tribulation ever known to mankind and the Second Coming happened before the fig tree bloomed, you may want to look at Matthew 24:15-34 in a reverse order than Jesus gave. I think the AoD is the last event, then the GT, then the Second Coming, and the fig tree blooming is the first event in that order.

When the abomination of desolation is here, there is only 1260 days left. Why worry about thinking it appeared?

If the Second Coming happens before the fig tree blooming then that generation would have been born after the Second Coming.

The tree blooming was a parable. 'like'. When we start to see the signs, just like a tree blooms and then it is summer, so we know that the end will be near when we see the signs. It is not about a fig tree being some literal tree in the end. Sure, we can say Israel is often symbolized as a fig tree, so maybe since that is one of the things in the end, maybe we could also apply that somewhat. But I think the main idea is that, hey, when you start to see the things, then it is close, like summer is close when a tree starts to bloom.

Jesus said some of the generation of the fig tree would live to see all those events mentioned,

No. there was never any 'generation of the fig tree'. There is a generation that will start to see some of the things happening, so it can know 'summer' or their redemption is near.

which means the fig tree comes first.

The signs come, and like a tree starting to bloom, that means the rest comes quickly.

Then the Second Coming happens after that in reverse order. The gospel being preached is still the last thing before the very end. But Jeus did not say by whom in Matthew's account. Revelation 14:6

Great, so who cares then? Maybe it is the angel. Maybe the 2 witnesses, maybe the 144,000 and the martyrs. Maybe all of the above. Why worry about that?

The church is not spreading the Gospel at this point. The church is gone. It is an angel tasked with the gospel at the very end.

I can agree with that, except there is also the witnesses and others. Why did you think there were so many martyrs?!

The rapture and Second Coming already happened. Matthew 13 explains Jesus and the angels are on earth sowing and reaping the wheat harvest.

Happened as of when? When the angel preaches?? Ha. No. Once we rule the earth with Jesus, no angel is needed!

This is not the church. The church already left at the Second Coming when Jesus as Prince came to earth with His angels.

The preaching happens before He returns. After that, well, they can just watch. The 1000 years is noted for the time when all men shall know the Lord, not a time when they need preaching to.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

This desolation was not the AoD.

We can disagree there. To set up something in the holy place in Israel, let me tell you, they would need lots of armies! So that historicl event was A desolation, not the desolation which is noted by the abomination of desolation.

What we know is that Ezekiel's armies was not Rome of 70AD. So this Ezekiel war is not recorded in the Bible as being mentioned in the OD. We do know many fled in 66-67, when the Roman armies first advanced, so Luke was covered in the follow up to 70AD, but not necessarily 70AD itself. Then Preterist try to shoe horn the whole of the OD into that period, but would be wrong in doing so.

In that historical desolation, I seem to recall they were besieged and unable to leave, no?

The point is that when a soul leaves earth, they can only do so by receiving a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

Then where do the dead in Christ go, if not to be with Him where he is?? If they are in heaven, then why would their dead bodies be raised in the gathering together in the air?

So what we seem to have here is you imposing misconceptions of the after life heavily into prophesy so that you interpret all things only in that doctrine. That seems to be why you are (to be generous) out in left field on many key issues.

 

[Keraz]

This word salad makes no sense, and does not belong in any serious bible discussion.

I realize that it is a wasted effort to discuss anything that refutes your fav belief of a 'rapture to heaven'.

I repeat: Revelation 7 is a chapter which describes entirely earthly scenes.
The faithful people who stood strong and trusted the Lord for His protection during the just happened Sixth Seal event, Revelation 6:12-17, are given a white robe and they go to live in Jerusalem. Psalms 107:1-3, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +
Jesus will reveal Himself to them, 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1, prove it.

Remember that the Throne of God is a spiritual concept. It is anywhere and everywhere and if God allows it; it can be seen from on earth. Ezekiel 1:1-28, Acts 7:56

 

[Keraz]

Those since the Cross do not wait in Abraham's bosom. They like Paul taught are instantly physically in Paradise.

This idea is wrong.
Many scriptures prove that the dead lie in their graves; metaphorically speaking, and their souls wait for the Great White Throne Judgment. Just as Lazarus, John 1:24 and David does; Acts 13:36

 

[Timtofly]

We never truly die, we were created in God's Image, thou will not SURELY DIE, remember the Satan untruth? He was correct in his half truth, the Soul died but it was still eternal, thus in Rev. 19:20 God speaking in eternal terms, God never allows those two to REST but throws them alive (in the spiritual sense) straight into hellfire.

Adam did die. The soul did not die. So what exactly is death? How did Adam die?

You say the soul died and cannot die contradicting yourself to those reading your explanation. Perhaps you see no contradiction, but the point remains. Then you add a third contradiction and a lie, that Adam did not physically die. Obviously he eventually died so God must have meant "eventually", and not "surely" at the moment Adam disobeyed.

All accounts are wrong. Here is the claim God made: Genesis 2:17-18

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

Three things: the command was given only to Adam. Eve was not created yet. Adam would surely die.

Adam was soul, body, and spirit. Adam was a perfect son of God in the full image of God. Adam did not stop being Adam so dying is not the cessation of Adam the soul. Yet the soul did die, because it was no longer the image of God as a son of God. Now Adam was the image of Adam. The full sin nature flesh and blood Adam. The physical body did die. It went from being a permanent building made by God to an earthly tent that would dissolve and turn back to dust, a literally dead body of flesh and blood, yet walking around for many more years, just like Adam was in Adam's image for many more years. The death of the spirit is a little more complicated and not even mentioned in Genesis 3 when Adam did disobey God. Or was it? Adam saw that his physical body was naked. A fact that was not available prior to the act of disobedience. So the spirit was a covering that prevented the ability to see the physical body. A spirit is not inside a body, but a physical phenomenon that prevented the physical body from being seen. Some just say they were mentally challenged and could not see themselves naked. That is why it is complicated. God is light and the spirit is light. That is clearly indicated on the mount of Transfiguration and even Moses experienced this on Mount Sinai in the presence of God. Yet most fail to see there is a literal physical light that can surround the body, thus preventing the physical body from being seen.

Humans can keep their theology and human understanding and explain away God's image as just some mental apparition. The word spirit is just defined as air and breath, or a ghost in many places. That is why the spirit dying is complicated in Genesis 2 and 3, because the spirit is not even addressed until the sons of God are mentioned themselves in Genesis 6, and even then not fully developed. We are never even told if Adam and Eve repented or turned to God. All we have is this verse:

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord."

Was Seth allowed to repent after Enos was born, or was Enos the first one to call upon the name of The Lord? Men being any one born after Seth to Adam and Eve, or all of Seth's offspring only. We know Adam and Eve had more children.

"And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:"

We are never told anything about them. So Adam did die, because he lost the whole image of God, body, soul, and spirit. After Seth all men were considered Adam's flesh and blood only. Genesis 5:1-3

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

We see this death sentence was a change of image in the entire image. All after Seth were dead in Adam's fallen image. Yes there were other sons of God both male and female per Genesis 1:26-28. Yet starting with chapter 5, we see the story about Adam only and Adam's dead image, that was the death result of Adam's one time disobedience to God. Yet many declare only Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. That is physically and logically impossible. Adam was one of many sons of God created on the 6th day, or it is plausible that Adam was created later. But the story was about sin and death for 6,000 years, and not really about the sons of God mentioned a few times in Scripture. Being a son of God is no longer being dead from Adam's disobedience. Being Adam flesh and blood is literally being dead. Dead souls wait in sheol. Redeemed souls are waiting in Paradise. The living dead are currently under sin's bondage on earth.

 

[dad]

I realize that it is a wasted effort to discuss anything that refutes your fav belief of a 'rapture to heaven'.

Being caught up into the air to be forever with Him doesn't sound like the subway system.

I repeat: Revelation 7 is a chapter which describes entirely earthly scenes.
The faithful people who stood strong and trusted the Lord for His protection during the just happened Sixth Seal event, Revelation 6:12-17, are given a white robe and they go to live in Jerusalem. Psalms 107:1-3, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +
Jesus will reveal Himself to them, 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1, prove it.

Repeat all you like. The throne of God and people dressed in white and His temple simply do not sound like anything in this world I am familiar with. The take away from this is that you are intent and determined to limit that to the world for some reason.

Remember that the Throne of God is a spiritual concept.

No. I think it's real.

It is anywhere and everywhere and if God allows it; it can be seen from on earth. Ezekiel 1:1-28, Acts 7:56

We can't see that flying wheel actually from here. It was only there and then visiting.

 

[dad]

This idea is wrong.
Many scriptures prove that the dead lie in their graves; metaphorically speaking, and their souls wait for the Great White Throne Judgment. Just as Lazarus, John 1:24 and David does; Acts 13:36

Not believers.

Where I am, there may you be also, Jesus said. He is not in the grave! Hard to believe the death some people peddle as religion.
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

If someone is in the grave they are not away from their body.

Philippians 1:22-23 My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

How can He bring you with Him from heaven if you are in the dirt?

The thief on the cross was not told to lay with the worms in the grave for millennia. He was told he would be with Him today.

 

[Timtofly]

Most preachers say some of the same things you espouse, its like a trained seal, those preachers can't stop being trained seals on some things, its just ingrained in then that the 144,000 are SUPER PREACHERS even though the bible never espouses that concept.

I have never heard nor thought them as "Super". You put that thought in my head. Scripture never even claims they "evangelize" or "preach". I do not think for one second they represent all Of Israel. I have never seen the need to view every point John made as a symbolic point. If John declares a new Scriptural concept, and then never gives a literal point, and there is no other Scripture that does so, then people don't need to go out of their way and add words and meaning to the text. So your symbolism is just speculation like all other speculation. In Matthew 25 Jesus separates the sheep and goats by His choice, not by their choice, and Jesus never claims only 144k nor even a third are sheep. Obviously if not all 16 million Jews alive today are "saved" by your own metric, then millions of Jews are going to be goats and eternally damned in the Lake of Fire. I do not see how theologically this event covers the whole church, as this is not about repentance and the remission of sin. This is about Jesus claiming to redeem some surprised Jews who only months before rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Obviously those Jews who accepted salvation were caught up with the church and glorified at the 6th Seal. "Some" of the church will not be left behind, because they were descendants of Jacob.

While I do think the parable of the 10 virgins represents Israel, not the church herself, the 5 wise virgins were part of the church and taken with the church. Out of the remaining 5, only 2 were then chosen by Jesus to rule on the earth for 1,000 years. 3 were goats and condemned to death. Now you will say, "certainly there are not 8 million Jews who currently confess Christ as their Messiah". You may be right. It is a parable, not a prophecy. If Jesus had said there were 2 wise virgins, and 8 foolish, then it may have been prophetic. Even in Matthew 25 with the sheep and goats it seems to imply a 50/50 chance. That does not seem realistic. Even the point made in the OT that 100% would be made whole was the best case scenario. Sometimes we are given the worse case, sometimes the best case, and most times left in the undefined middle.

But the point about the 144k is realistically an actual 144k chosen to be disciples, meaning it is a training process, not a symbolic escape process for millions of modern Jews. Take the example of the original 12 disciples. They seem to mirror the 12 tribes. Even to the point we end up with 13 and 14 in total. Joseph was still a tribe, yet we see Ephraim and Manasseh. Judas was replaced with a human choice and then presumably Paul was chosen directly by Jesus as well.

While I do not see this process in Revelation 7 exactly duplicating the original 12 tribes nor 12 disciples, you have both ideas represented. On one hand sparing 12,000 from each tribe, while on the other in Revelation 14, they are disciples that go wherever Jesus goes on earth and obviously off earth. Not once do we see them sent out as representatives, but I do think that them being sealed was the same change that Paul describes from death into life. While they were still wherever they happened to be all over the earth, they could never physically die again by natural means, but only directly by God Himself. They were no longer Adam's flesh and blood but redeemed from earth for a particular purpose. That purpose obviously not fully disclosed, or we would not need to presume at all. If these are supposed to represent all of redeemed Israel post the Second Coming, how do all of the millions do exactly what Jesus does, and go exactly where Jesus goes? It is hard enough to picture 144k always with Jesus. Now we have a scenario where millions of Jews are always with Jesus? Personally, I think those redeemed after the Second Coming, 6th Seal, are waiting on the sea of glass. So all your millions of sheep, these redeemed of Israel are not in Paradise, not on earth, but waiting on the sea of glass, wherever that is, until the resurrection in Revelation 20:4. The 144k are a separate group who get to hang out with the Prince until the very end. Even part of the army in Revelation 19 if Armageddon happens. This 144k go wherever the Prince goes.

Now I picture this with a modern twist, since the 144k are alive today, and were not born in the first century.

"and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

What better demographic than your adolescent teens? Jesus said:

"the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

I realize that the connotation is seemingly about "toddlers". Yet Jesus points out many even the unborn will make up the kingdom. So choosing a demographic that even Jesus would not turn away would be thousands of male teens who fit a certain description without even trying. Teens of today who all they do is sit behind a computer screen and have mentally been training in spiritual warfare for years. Of course maybe the plan was to remove these teens from reality distracting them away from God. Yet if you think about it, many have not even had time to focus on girls or anything else for that matter. And they have literally been programmed in mental battles with spiritual not literal characters. Has this been a focus set up by God for attacks against Satan? Hardly, but did Satan realize that all this distraction away from God, could be flipped upside down, by God, and now used against Satan? Take it or leave it. There is a plausible explanation of those 144k that fit the narrative. But in adding symbolism where not necessary do you change the narrative or come in conflict with other Scripture? The math could go either way. The number 12 is still about leadership and disciples close to Jesus. So used for a particular group and not just a representation of the masses in some vague generic way.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no idea how this sounds like earth to you. Maybe sell maps so we can do tours of His temple and throne? Oh, I guess you couldn't since no one has ever come out of the great tribulation yet.

This scene is before The great tribulation, but after great tribulation. Billions are already in Paradise. This scene does not take place after the 7th Thunder in Revelation 10. This takes place between the 6th and 7th Seal. Even prior to the very 1st Trumpet. So unless you think the 4 Seals with the horsemen is The great tribulation, then this is before the GT that happens during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. Coming out of great tribulation started in the first century with Stephen and James. Stephen was the first to come out of the last 1992 years of great tribulation. Which BTW is the same tribulation of those days in Matthew 24. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation of the last 1992 years.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Now that come up hither is at the very end of the tribulation. They have finished their testimony. This is also calling the dead to be raised to life, these two witnesses to be precise. That is not before the wrath. Nor are the people raised here part of the church.

I only brought that up because it wasn’t the only “come up hither”. And I don’t believe that is the resurrection either. I never said that. But you using the first one as a rapture makes John the universal church and you’re spiritualizing him. No where in scripture is John made to represent universal church.

No. The old testament believers were not the church. Nor are the new believers in the tribulation after the Rapture. Nor are the new believers in the 1000 years!

There was always an Ekklesia and even a remnant today as there was in Elijah’s time. Christians are in tribulation (thlipsis) today and will be then. Tribulation is not wrath nor has it ever been. All believers are part of Christ body. His words cannot change, all must come to the son first by grace thru faith. The difference later is all will know him rather then saying, come, know the Lord.

You could not say the same for salvation. The church or the Bride is just a name for people who are saved by Jesus before the end of the world era. That does not mean these are the only people to ever believe.

Whose talking about salvation? Don’t change the subject. You said the church is absent. Guess what, it’s absent in 10 books too. So what? It’s terrible logic proved inaccurate.

The other questions arnt even worth responding. You’re dodging facts because they interfere with what you think may be right. Acts 3:21 speaks for itself as much as you try to think otherwise. I’d rather ask myself, hmm, why does it say that if I’m Pre-TB? I should look into it…but you don’t. Instead, your happy with itching ears and fables of things that taste good; meats for the belly. It’s a shame

 

[dad]

This scene is before The great tribulation, but after great tribulation.

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That sets the context for chapter 7

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
So how in tarnation could this be 'before the great tribulation'?

Billions are already in Paradise. This scene does not take place after the 7th Thunder in Revelation 10. This takes place between the 6th and 7th Seal.

What scene?

Even prior to the very 1st Trumpet. So unless you think the 4 Seals with the horsemen is The great tribulation, then this is before the GT that happens during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Perhaps you can tell us when this happened then? When did a quarter of the planet die? It seems to me the population has grown.

Coming out of great tribulation started in the first century with Stephen and James.

Not the last seven years, which is what we are talking about.
There is a difference between getting stoned, and the world in Great Tribulation.

Stephen was the first to come out of the last 1992 years of great tribulation.

What 1992 years? I never notice that one.

Which BTW is the same tribulation of those days in Matthew 24. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation of the last 1992 years.

No need repeating, I think we get it. You deny the Tribulation and try to assign it to history playing foolish word games.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Where do you think the church waits now? In the New Jerusalem? Have they been sent through time? They are not on earth. They are not in sheol, Abraham's bosom. So either they were sent through time and stopped existing in this reality, or they are currently enjoying Paradise, which when with the Lord has only been two literal days. Which is a form of time travel. Time moving at different relational speeds to each other. They have experienced two days and two nights. Revelation 7:

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

Or they have had the same literal time as on earth, serving tens of thousands of days and nights. Yet still they are somewhere and doing something in physical bodies. Every hour for the last 1900+ years people have been leaving this tent for a permanent building. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

No one has slept since the Cross. That is tasting death, the OT lingo for the soul entering Abraham's bosom. This all "not sleeping" applied to the thief on the Cross. He physically entered Paradise that day, the second his soul left this tent for the permanent building in Paradise. When Stephen was about to be stoned he physically saw Jesus standing waiting for him, which greatly angered those condemning him even more. They were taught that could not happen until the last day resurrection when their Messiah would resurrect the dead. They like you seem to have missed that last day resurrection a few months back when they hung Jesus on a Cross. Now Stephen tells them this same Jesus was standing next to God waiting for his physical arrival. Acts 6:54-58

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him."

You really think, Stephen saw Jesus, but then was told, to wait indefinitely, and where is Stephen waiting? When Paul said flesh and blood, he was not ruling out a physical body. In fact the new physical body is a permanent building. The tent is the dead flesh and blood. A soul is not a permanent building, like the soul was not a tent. The image of God currently in Paradise is a permanent incorruptible physical body. Paul was saying Adam's dead flesh could not enter. In fact until the Cross no soul could enter Paradise either. That is why the soul tasted death, called sleep, in Abraham's bosom until the Cross. Once the physical Atonement was a reality on earth. (It had already been a reality to God since before creation.) Once the Cross happened, then the Garden was no longer sealed by an angel, but the doors were opened to all covered by the Atonement. Those since the Cross do not wait in Abraham's bosom. They like Paul taught are instantly physically in Paradise.

Misquoting verses again Timtofly.

Here’s a question, where did Christ go to when he died? And when you get the answer, who else was there. Hmm it wasn’t Heaven where no man has ascended to.

 

[dad]

I only brought that up because it wasn’t the only “come up hither”. And I don’t believe that is the resurrection either.

No sense arguing about it. You do not see a gathering together in the air of us anywhere, so why focus on when the church is no longer mentioned?

But you using the first one as a rapture makes John the universal church and you’re spiritualizing him. No where in scripture is John made to represent universal church.

It makes him no such silly thing. IF that were the time of the Rapture, then it would simply mean that particular vision was at the time of the Rapture, and he also went up.

There was always an Ekklesia and even a remnant today as there was in Elijah’s time.

God always had His peeps. Not all the peeps were the Bride of Christ.

Christians are in tribulation (thlipsis) today and will be then.

Irrelevant to that time known as the Tribulation.

Tribulation is not wrath nor has it ever been.

Says you. The Great Tribulation is not any time. It is that one time special terrible time.

All believers are part of Christ body. His words cannot change, all must come to the son first by grace thru faith. The difference later is all will know him rather then saying, come, know the Lord.

Not all of them are gathered together at the Rapture. Not all dead, but 'the dead in Christ' and we which are alive at that time. Don't try to obfuscate and minimize that great day and hope of all ages.

Whose talking about salvation? Don’t change the subject. You said the church is absent. Guess what, it’s absent in 10 books too. So what? It’s terrible logic proved inaccurate.

In that special book of prophesy that deals with events of the end, the church stops being mentioned at a certain specific point. Not sure why you are trying to change the subject by looking at how many times in other books a word is mentioned.

Acts 3:21 speaks for itself as much as you try to think otherwise. I’d rather ask myself, hmm, why does it say that if I’m Pre-TB? I should look into it…but you don’t. Instead, your happy with itching ears and fables of things that taste good; meats for the belly. It’s a shame[/QUOTE]
The restitution of all things is not when Jesus first returns. If you thought that was evident, then that is your problem.

 

[The Light]

Which proves the wrath of God does not start until the 7th trump.

I guess you could arrive at that conclusion if you didn't understand that the coming Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus in Rev 6.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened. If you think all those trumpets are not the wrath of God you are greatly mistaken. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet.

The bible says the wrath of God begins at the 7th trump not ends. What do you think the vials of wrath are? Vials of blessings and happiness??

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.