Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

Interesting comment Dad.

Just wondering what chapter, you see the rapture happening in Revelation? Do you see the return of Jesus at the 6th seal?

I am not sure. When John is hears a voice that says come up hither, maybe that could be it.

As for the sixth seal, the events listed are apparently leading up to the return of Jesus, in the final phase of the Tribulation.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Therefore, we would assume that this corresponds with some of the trumpets and vials, since they come after, no?

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[dad]

Because I do know, there is NO WRATH until the Midway point of the 70th week.

Looking at another opinion (though you like to call it knowing) we see this
"
The key to interpreting this passage properly is in understanding that the entire seven years of Tribulation is considered the "wrath of God." The Bowl Judgments are just the final and greatest outpouring of wrath during those seven years, but the wrath of God is evident in all the judgments of Tribulation, as Revelation teaches us:


Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last because in them the wrath of God is finished.


Notice, the Bowl Judgments are called "the last" because they "finish" the wrath of God in Tribulation. They are not the entirety of God's wrath. They are the finishing of God's wrath. Similarly, we find even the first judgments of Tribulation, the Seal Judgments, called judgments of wrath in Revelation:


Rev. 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


After the sixth Seal Judgment, the people of earth declare that the great day of "wrath" has come upon them. Clearly, God's wrath comes to earth long before the Bowl Judgments appear. The Bowl Judgments are just the final outpouring of His wrath. "

Verse by Verse Ministry International

Try to offer opinions as such.

Is THE WOMAN in Rev. 12 a Woman or Israel? I just destroyed that thesis brother, come on, that was TOO EASY. The book of Revelation is one giant CODE BOOK that can be decoded with the Old Testament.

Was this leading to some point?

You being facetious is just you being in the dark. Its sad we have men who don't know but when told only fall back on things they learned not from God but passed down via men's traditions, then when they hear the truth it goes right over their heads.

Waving away truth by harping on numbers is not truth. That is a skewed perspective and priorities. Added significance from the usual meanings of numbers can be interesting and valid. But not when we focus so much on that that the truth and meaning of the verses themselves are overshadowed and lost. For example seven is a great number. Lots of uses and significance in the bible. However, when we see that there were say, seven trumpets or vials or etc and then try to impose only some symbolism of the number, then we have lost touch.

Yes, I am way over your head it seems, except in my replies, at least I try to give a real reply, if you are getting destroyed, it seems you get testy. It may not be your calling, why sweat it?

Say it like you mean it. So far you have offered mostly weak opinions.

I have done so many studies I would put you to shame sir, I understand what the numbers mean YOU DON'T, that is on you its your duty as called by God to show yourself worthy by study.

Boast all you like. The proof is in the pudding. Your bible jello never seemed to harden.

I don't use Numerology nor anything of the devil it is NOT FUN to me, I use God's own codes you not understanding God uses numbers is on you brother, you limit yourself.

So now you invent some God code that must be the key to interpret His word. Then you seem to think you are a genius for doing it.

It doesn't matter where its at, but even there you are wrong, Jesus calls us home from upon a CLOUD (Rev. 14:14) and Paul said we meet him in the CLOUDS so he blows the Trump in our atmosphere.

Great, so we raise up to the air. This is news?

A little advice, if you get frustrated, just don't try and answer all of the replies at the same time.

Sorry you overrated your confused replies.

 

[dad]

This has zero to do with a minor division, this 7th Seal SKIPS a whole chapter and is then seen over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpet Judgments Arrival. We have the 144,000 IN BETWEEN in Rev. 7. So, even though there were no chapter and verses, common sense tells us this was placed by God over in the 7 Trumps for a reason, the 7th Seal opens the Judgment Scroll.

Let's get this straight. You are saying that because the called Jews from various tribes are mentioned in chapter seven...this means...what?

If people only used common sense they could understand the seals fairly easy A king(s) usually sent a message with three signet seals to make sure his correspondence was not spied out, if one seal had been broken his message was still safe, but when all three came off only then could his message be read, so the scroll is SEALED by Jesus/God (7 meaning Divine Completion) thus no one can open these Judgments up until God says its time. In Rev. 5 no one was found worthy to open the book of Judgments, but Jesus was Worthy, the Slain Lamb of God. The Seals only BIND the Judgments. I am correct, regardless of your past understandings, they will not hold up on this.

You have an opinion. Whoopee doo. It seems that you think that all six seals are just some sort of closed prophesy about what will happen in the future, right?

You are WRONG, if you can't grasp it that's on you. When you get to heaven you will then understand it, I understand it now because I have been called unto this.

If you do say so yourself?

And I don't "SPECULATE" I have the holy spirit

Unlike other posters and thousands of sites that try to teach or understand prophesy?

and even when I did not get these things for 30 years I did not offer SPECULATON as facts,

You obviously so now though on many things. I would say that is your modus operandi, and trait.

those are your words, not mine and not God's. I know when I know that I know, ever if you do not know brother. Men's traditions have you blocked, that was the Pharisees problems.

More self aggrandizement and claims of knowing, rather than humble opinions offered with support.

And Jesus was showing John THE FUTURE EVENTS......thus what was TO COME.

Chapter and verse as applies to the seals, which I assume you are referring to?

 

[dad]

..continued--
I have a 10,000 piece puzzle and 9925 pieces put together, my speculation is more akin to this, that the 10th toe is missing in the big picture!!

So your wild opinions are almost solid gold fact then, by your estimation. We get it.

Yes sir, the Beast DIES after 42 months (Vial 7 in Rev. 16:19) so he has to come to power on day 1260 out of 2520 as THE BEAST. He only has 42 months to rule. So, he comes to power in the Middle of the week, as Daniel chapter 9 tells us.

Daniel chapter and verse that says the beast only rules for the last part of the week?

Yes, because we know exactly how long he rules and he DIES at the Second Coming which ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS, so his 1260 day rule can only start in the middle of the week. Thus if all of the Seals are just Jesus PROPHESYING what is soon to come (it is) then each event will be 42 months because he rules for 42 months. If you were to become President in 2024 ad I knew the future I could point to your four year presidency and say THIS, THIS, THIS & THIS is going to happen in his 4 year Presidency. That is what Jesus is doing as he simply opens up a Sealed Judgment Book.

In your opinion. I am not so sure that the seals are not events that actually happen before the vials and etc.

Says the bible, says the holy Spirit. BOTH Joel 2:31 and te 6th Seal Prophecy by Jesus bring Darkness right, where do we see THE DARKNESS? In Trump #4 !! After the 7th Seal is loosed ACTIONS HIT THE EARTH.

So it only gets dark once?
Revelation 16:10
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

The next verse shows that the end is still to come, as men still repented not
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
So, that is not the darkness of the very end.

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

There again you show that there is some darkness before the very end. As you know in the end all the grass is burned, all the sun is dark etc.

Nowhere does the bible say the first half of the 70th week is Wrath.

Not when you place all the seals near the last part, obviously.

No, in the first four John is told tom "COME AND SEE" the future, I agree it is the FUTURE but its not happening 1260 days into the 70th week but between the 1290 where the Jews flee Judea and the 1260 where they are Conquered by the Beast.

The Future event we are seeing is Jesus taking off the Seals which will finally bring JUDGMENT(S) to earth, and during this unsealing Jesus is showing John FURTHER FUTURE EVENTS, its God who gave this to John, of course its majestic and a complex riddle by nature.

I find that people who do not understand something have a hard time explaining it. They also think it is complicated.

You are not really being serious here. There are things God 1.) Will not give out the info on 2.) Men couldn't understand it anyway so God gives us NUMBERS that stand in.

There are also things that God numbers, such as the hairs of your head and your days. When He gives us numbers, we should respect them rather than wave them away as spiritual only unless the spirit of a text suggests otherwise.

For instance Moses would not have understood what 13.7 billion years even means

How high could Moses count then? Proof?

, so God gave him 6 YOWMES or Time Periods that covered 13.7 billion years via the creation.

Ah, so you apparently wave away creation week days also. The plot thickens.

The Two-witnesses are two men who already have glorious bodies.

Proof? Since they are killed, I would again point out your opinion is speculation.

There is really ZERO REASON they have to die save one thing, the only reason they die is to illuminate the TWO TIMELINES via our juxtaposing their 1260 day timeline against the Beasts 1260 day timeline.

You made that up whole of cloth though. The reason God gives is He allowed it in the very end, only to raise them up to life again.

Thus if we know the Two-witnesses DIE at the 2nd Woe and the Beast only dies at the 7th Vial, then we know the Two-witnesses 1260 day timelines has to start BEFORE the Beasts 1260 day timeline, thus the 1335 starts 75 days before the 1260, thus the 1335 BLESSING is the Two-witnesses.

Chapter and verse that says they die at the second woe?

We can tell by the CONTEXT when God is using using numbers in certain ways and when He is not.

Apparently you thought you could do that. Better get back to the drawing board.

By the way, the old Hebrew language only had 4000 some odd words and no vowels, whereas modern day English has 500k words, of course God used numbers as stand ins.

If He did, one suspects we would have some clear indication. Some people disbelieve creation week because they try to wave away the days.

The Pre Trib Raptured Church is ALL of that crowd, that's the point NO ONE gets raptured after the 70th week starts.

Prove it. For example, if the US were destroyed by fire one day, and that day coincided with the Rapture, then both the Rapture and the last week both happen at the same time. Can you rule that out?

Go reread it's Darkness and Fire comes from an Asteroid.....its common sense.

Pure speculation

We understand the DOTL in Rev. comes from an Asteroid, this we can back track the Joel 2:31 understandings.

You confuse 'understandings' with wild baseless speculations.


More inability to answer with intelligent replies or rebuts.

Its a SEALED JUDGMENT BOOK MAN !!

Yet looking at what Jesus Personally said, we would have to take your opinion with a huge grain of salt.
Revelation 22:10
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

When you get to heaven and see I was right you will be like DUH I should have listened.

More self patting on the back

 

[The Light]

I am not sure. When John is hears a voice that says come up hither, maybe that could be it.

I think that is likely to be it as we see the 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Rev 4 and it appears that there are kings and priests in heaven in Rev 5 which is likely the Church.

As for the sixth seal, the events listed are apparently leading up to the return of Jesus, in the final phase of the Tribulation.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Therefore, we would assume that this corresponds with some of the trumpets and vials, since they come after, no?

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus comes at the 6th seal, as we see what proceeds the sign of His coming and men are trying to hide.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is it your understanding that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins or do you think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same event?

 

[dad]

I think that is likely to be it as we see the 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Rev 4 and it appears that there are kings and priests in heaven in Rev 5 which is likely the Church.

Sounds about right

Jesus comes at the 6th seal, as we see what proceeds the sign of His coming and men are trying to hide.

I would have thought so also until today. Looking at that again, I have to ask myself if maybe there are some events during the Tribulation that somewhat resemble events at the very end.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Yes, that is certainly going to happen when He comes back. The question I have now is will there also be darkness maybe earlier in the Tribulation? We know for example, that a third of the stars will fall, the day will be partly dark, a third of the grass burned etc. For example
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain

That is not when Jesus returns is it?

Is it your understanding that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins or do you think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same event?

Listening to some preachers in the last few years, there is a definite opinion that all of the seven years is the wrath of God. I lean in that direction also.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No one says the virgins are saved believers. If they were, they would have oil. The saved have the oil of the spirit. The unsaved do not.

But they are a part of Christendom, because Jesus names them as a part of the 10 (Completion), so the 5 who were once Virgins betrayed Jesus/God and thus are not welcomed at the wedding.

The saved do not merely say lord.

Those are Jesus' words, not mine, the point is half of the Church are FAKE Christians, they love evil more than God, they love this world more than God.

The prodigal son was still saved. Those who accuse others of 'wallowing' often pretend they are sinless, and therefore are hypocrites.

Only because he REPENTED !! Once the Rapture happens you will go through the 70th week TROUBLES, even if you repent during the tribulation.

Except you made that up. Some may. You cannot say all will. That is pure opinion.

No it is fact, I know the voice of the Holy Spirit. I actually think you are way ahead of mot guys on here, you are probably where I was 5 or 6 years ago before God answered my prayer as per unto why the Church is so all over the place and confused. I was like Lord, why in these end times when you promised to open the skies and drop the spirit on us is it that the Church has hundreds of understandings of what the Harlot is, what the Beast(s) will be, who the 144,000 are, what Babylon means, instead of ONE TRUE UNDERSTANDING and I got this "Ron you guys already know it all" So, I was where you are on most things, I never questioned things, mostly, things which we all came to understand in the mainstream. The Pre Trib Rapture was obvious to me however.

But that's just has 2 or 3 views, why do we have 100s of interpretations I wondered on some things, and God told me because we already have all the answers thus we got them from other men not God because God is never wrong. So, I started questioning everything that seemed contradictory, because God never contradicts Himself, we just flub things, or translate them wrongly etc. etc. Like the Tribulation Saints in Rev. 7:9-17, they CAN NOT be from the 70th week, Jesus tells them those under the Altar at the 5th Seal that they MUST WAIT until ALL of their brothers have died as they have and we see in Rev. 20:4 that all of them are only judged by Jesus AFTER his Second Coming, so I had to solve this before I moved on, I knew that is what God was speaking about, there are truths, but we have excepted FALSEHOODS, and thus I understood, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Raptured Church who came out of the Great Church Age Troubles !!

So, with you I am covering way too much and it is so new to you that you are like COME ON MAN, never heard some of these things. So, after this post I am going to go into just one subject in detail, that explains the 1335, the 1290 and 1260 and thus prove why the 1290 AoD can not be the Anti-Christ and why it can only be a Jewish High Priest gone rogue. Once you see I can prove these things by going in depth maybe you will understand that it is of God.

As per the 144,000 do you think 10 Virgins is not a made up hook? but 144,000 male virgins is, I don't think like that. I think both are God using numbers to inform us about things which he does likewise in parables so the world hearing will not hear but us hearing should understand. So, you think God picks out a specific number of Jewish peoples to save I don't, that is akin to Calvinism, he is giving us a squared up number via multiplication, as in 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 12,000 x 12 = 144,000. The city of New Jerusalem just so happens to be 144,000 cubits also !! There are no MALE VIRGINS just like the 10 Females (All Christendom) are not all Female nor Virgins. What gets me is you understand the 10 Female Brides are allegorical, but can't seem to grasp the 144,000 Jews are also. God doesn't chose squared off perfect numbers, the real numbers will be more like 5,017, 291 or something like that. We know 1/3 of the Jews repent, thus there are 15 million Jews in the world, so where does 144,000 even come from? Will there only be 5 Christians taken in the Rapture? You see how I box you in?

In Rev. 2:10 it says Smyrna will have Tribulation 10 days, that means for the complete Church Age. The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply men God sees all and is everywhere. The 10,000 x 10,000 hosts from heaven don't mean 200 million, it simply means the complete hosts of heaven will be with Jesus. The 7 Churches represent the complete church age. God stated He had saved Himself 7000 men (7 x 10 x 10 x 10) so did He save 7000 or 144,000 or do you not understand BOTH are the same number, COMPLETENESS as in 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 and 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 COMPLETENESS x FULNESS.

When you see, later on today the 1335, 1290 and 1260 are the key to all end time understandings maybe you will then see I am not just making things up, we will se.

As I wrote a blog 5 or so years ago about how THAT CITY in Rev. 17:18 was Rome the holy spirit was like, you are WRONG Ron, it is not Babylon, read it again, what did John SEE, as I looked I noticed the vision was only four verses long, verses 3-6, so I reread it and understood that MYSTERY was not one of the Descriptors, it was instead a HEADER like this:

MYSTERY
1.) Babylon the Great (Describes a city associated with ALL FALSE RELIGION)
2.) Mother of Harlots (Where Harlotry was birthed and flourished/FALSE RELIGION)
3.) Abominations of the earth (God detests all worshiping of any gods but Himself (False Religion)

The MYSTERY is revealed, the Angel in verse 7 says COME let my show you the Mystery of the Harlot (ALL FALSE RELIGION) and the Beasts she rides on (ALL False Governance). False Religion and False Governance was UNITED for eons. But the last Beast and his 10 (E.U.) Kings will kill off the Harlot because they demand Beast Worship only. Islam will be wiped out, as will Hinduism, Buddhism and Any and All Religions save humanistic Beast worship.

Thus I knew it was not Rome, but that Babylon was a code name for the WHOLE WORLD.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED.........

Petra is NOT why Jews are protected actually. It is likely one place where the protected will go.

It is the ONLY PLACE (Edom, Moab and Ammon) in Dan. 11:40-43 that does not get Conquered in the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

In the end all Israel will be saved.

No, only 1/3 who REPENT will be saved. You guys confuse the meaning from the Greek Paul wrote it in, Israel as a NATION will be saved, not every Jew. Thus ALL Israel refers to her as a nation.

That is proof your little number scheme is baloney. The ones with no oil were not saved, so were not 'christendom'. Christendom seems to be an artificial word that embraces false churches along with actual believers.

10 = The Complete Church, thus half fall by the wayside.

I am very much against child sacrifice and ungodly unions. However, if some who were caught in that trap repent, of course they are saved.

That's the whole point, they really think they are Christians who do not need to repent.

If people sincerely call out to Jesus, they are saved. Period. No thinking needed.

That is not exactly what the bible says, it says specifically we must REPENT ALSO.

We do not sorrow as other men and neither will the new believers. To die is gain. The weeping and gnashing is not for us at all. Ever.

It will be for the 5 Virgins who miss the wedding.

That part is not speculation. Read again what I said was. Your 'cometdidit' thing. That is speculation.

Asteroid not a comet, it is not speculation, a "Mountain is cast into the Water" An Asteroid named Apophis is heading our way. Its named for the Egyptian god of chaos. It will supposedly come within 19 K miles of the earth, that is 10 times closer than the moon, now LOOK AROUND YOU, is it time for the Anti-Christ, LOL, of course it is.

If if if, woulda coulda shoulda. We do not know where the mountain that falls will hit, or if that is what kills all the people. Speculation.

FACT, FACT, FACT, the Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of all the waters on this earth and since the chemical makeup of each ocean is different, the waters from different oceans cant flow into other oceans. Yes we do, it will fall in an Ocean and the Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of the waters AND its clear around the other side of the world preserving Jerusalem. And if Apophis hits (it will), it will hit just off the California and Mexican border, in the Ocean.

There were plenty of Jewish martyrs. Obviously. Jesus mentioned that.

Not in Revelation under the Altar, there may be some who do not make it into the Petra/Bozrah area, but the Remnant is of THE SEED of the Woman (Jesus).

Maybe. Maybe the remnant also or especially means the remnant of Israel who actually believe. Who knows? It is not wise to build doctrines on maybes.

NO.....I just explained why it CAN NOT be Jews. WATCH:

Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood(A.C. Army) after the woman,(Israel) that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman(just as in Egypt/Wall of fire Red Sea etc), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,(Jesus is HER SEED says Gal. 3, so the Remnant is the Gentile Church) which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The 1/3 (3-5 million) are PROTECTED, Satan gets ANGRY and sends the A.C. Armies after the Remnant of Jesus (HER SEED). So, the 1/3 CAN NOT be touched, well the 2/3 who refuses to repent have not the testimony of Jesus, so this can ONLY BE the Gentile Church who come to Christ during the 70th week after the Rapture.

Speculation. We do not know he will not make an appearance there.

Calling weak opinions facts changes nothing.

You are weak in discernment.

 

[The Light]

I would have thought so also until today. Looking at that again, I have to ask myself if maybe there are some events during the Tribulation that somewhat resemble events at the very end.

Yes, that is certainly going to happen when He comes back. The question I have now is will there also be darkness maybe earlier in the Tribulation? We know for example, that a third of the stars will fall, the day will be partly dark, a third of the grass burned etc. For example
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain

That is not when Jesus returns is it?

Listening to some preachers in the last few years, there is a definite opinion that all of the seven years is the wrath of God. I lean in that direction also.

When I read the earlier part of your answers I knew that you had to think that the 7 years is the wrath of God. Yes, most pretrib preachers think that the tribulation is the wrath of God. They think that these verses in Matthew 24 occur at the 7th vial when Jesus returns with His armies.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But these verses do not occur at the 7th vial, they occur at the 6th seal.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Those that believe in a prewrath rapture understand that Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. And yet they do not understand that there will be a pretrib rapture. I liked the fact that you were not making things up but were attempting to let the scripture speak. That is the only way you can possibly understand the scriptures. Accept what is written.

 

[dad]

When I read the earlier part of your answers I knew that you had to think that the 7 years is the wrath of God. Yes, most pretrib preachers think that the tribulation is the wrath of God. They think that these verses in Matthew 24 occur at the 7th vial when Jesus returns with His armies.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But these verses do not occur at the 7th vial, they occur at the 6th seal.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Those that believe in a prewrath rapture understand that Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. And yet they do not understand that there will be a pretrib rapture. I liked the fact that you were not making things up but were attempting to let the scripture speak. That is the only way you can possibly understand the scriptures. Accept what is written.

Right, there is no law that says we have to be right all the time.
So you are saying that the Rapture is the sixth seal apparently. I guess you think that is when the heavens roll up and etc.

 

[dad]

But they are a part of Christendom, because Jesus names them as a part of the 10 (Completion), so the 5 who were once Virgins betrayed Jesus/God and thus are not welcomed at the wedding.

So you say that the foolish virgins with no oil that missed the event are believers? All because the number ten was used. Rather than accepting all the verses that say things like 'he that hath the son hath life' and etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc you want to have God pluck believers from His hand and cast them off and forsake them and leave them to wrath. Sorry, no deal.

Those are Jesus' words, not mine, the point is half of the Church ae FAKE Christians, they love evil more than God, they love this world more than God.

His words say nothing of the sort. He simply points out that some of those people were left behind. The idea that they were part of His Bride your opinion, not His.

Only because he REPENTED !! Once the Rapture happens you will go through the 70th week TROUBLES, even if you repent during the tribulation.

You are merely extending your opinion of who was left behind here. If believers were not left behind there is no merit to your extended speculation.

No it is fact, I know the voice of the Holy Spirit. I actually think you are way ahead of mot guys on here, you are probably where I was 5 or 6 years ago before God answered my prayer as per unto why the Church is so all over the place and confused. I was like Lord, why in these end times when you promised to open the skies and drop the spirit on us is it that the Church has hundreds of understandings of what the Harlot is, what the Beast(s) will be, who the 144,000 are, what Babylon means, instead of ONE TRUE UNDERSANDING and I git this "Ron you guys already know it all" So, I was where you are on most things, I never question, mostly, things we came to understand in the mainstream. The Pre Trib Rapture as obvious to me.

No offence, but I think you indicated that you do not believe in the days of creation as real, is that correct? If so, then basically anything you have to say is of no worth to me. A house that is built on lies cannot be trusted. But maybe I have it wrong and you do not dismiss the days of creation. Easy to clear up. So..?

But that's just 2 or 3 views, why do we have 100s of interpretations I wondered, and God told me because we already have all the answers thus we git them from other men not God because God is never wrong. So, I started questioning everything tat seemed contradictory, because God never contradicts Himself, we just flub things, or translate the wrongly etc. etc. Like the Tribulation Saints in Rev. 7:9-17, they CAN NOT be from the 70th week, Jesus tells them they MUST WAIT until ALL of their brothers have died as they have and we see in Rev. 20:4 tat all of them are only judged by Jesus AFTER his Second Coming, so I had to solve this before I moved on, I knew that is what Gid was speaking about, there are truths, but we have excepted FALSEHOODS, and thus I understood, these are the Raptured Church who came out of the Great Church Age Troubles !!

If you died say, 3 years into the seven years, and were killed for your faith, you would be up there, no? So why would you not join those praying for judgment? His reply was basically that they should wait till all believers who were to be martyred were also killed. That does not say that all the people crying out were killed before the seven years began.

So, with you I am covering way too much and it is so new to you that you are like COME ON MAN, never heard some of these things. So, after this post I am going to go into just one subject in detail, that explains the 1335, the 1290 and 1260 and thus prove why the 1290 AoD can not be the Anti-Christ but why it can only be a Jewish High Priest gone rogue. Once you see I can prove these things by going in depth maybe you will understand that it is of God.

Opinion, we are not told exactly what the extra days are for. Your guess is (I'm being generous here) as good as the next guys on that.

As per the 144,000 s you think 10 Virgins is not a made up hook, but 144,000 male virgins is, I don't think like that. I think both are God using numbers to inform us about things which he does likewise in parables so the world hearing will not hear but us hearing should understand.

Whether you 'like' God choosing 12,000 people from each tribe or not doesn't really matter.

So, you think God picks out a specific number of Jewish peoples to save I don't, that is akin to Calvinism, he is giving is a squared of number via multiplication, as in 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 12,000 x 12 = 144,000.

Says who that is predestination? Maybe He simply chooses believers that are worthy. He has a job to do and wants certain types of folks to do that. I don't recall they were all male, chapter and verse? Just because God choose Paul, does not mean others were not also chosen for other jobs and saved. Just because a special team of Jews are picked in the end does not mean that they are the only ones saved or with jobs!

The city of New Jerusalem just so happens to be 144,000 cubits also !!

So what!! I suspect that various people draw border maps a little differently anyhow.

There are no MALE VIRGINS just like the 10 Females (All Christendom) are not Female nor Virgins.

There are males in the Bride of Christ. The Bride is not about male female so much as being joined in love with Jesus. Jesus is not a homosexual in case that was news.

What gets me is you understand the 10 Female Brides are allegorical, but can't seem to grasp the 144,000 Jews are also.

Every tub needs to stand on it's own legs. If you make the 144 thousand a pretend/spiritual/unreal number, then you need to go to work of the 12,000 from each tribe. That is like the people that toss out the days of creation, then they get to work on tossing out mornings and then evenings etc. They get into a frenzy of disbelief and label it as something else.

God doesn't chose squared off perfect numbers, the real numbers will be more like 5,017, 291 or something like that.

Were there not 12 disciples? That is a real number. 10 lepers? One Lazarus that was raised from the dead? 10 commandments? 2 witnesses? 3 days that Jesus was dead? Seven days in a week? 12 hours in a day? Etc etc etc. Why would we take someone's opinion based on squat that there may be 'really' only 10,200 from one tribe rather than 12,000? You don't get to make stuff up.

We know 1/3 of the Jews repent, thus there are 15 million Jews in the world

We do not know how many there will be when the 144,000 are picked out. Your guess may be somewhat possible, but we don't really know. What if, for example, the US was destroyed just before the 144,000 were chosen? Well, right there you would be millions of people wrong. Don't offer opinion as absolute fact.

, some where does 144,000 even come from?

Three guesses. Not like someone made that up.

Will there only be 5 Christians taken in the Rapture? Yu see how I box you in?

No number of those Rapture was given. You only box yourself in.

In Rev. 2:10 it says Smyrna will have Tribulation 10 days, that means for the complete Church Age.

Opinion. There are probably lots of opinions on what that could mean. There is also a possibility it is something specific in the future we do not know about yet.

The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply men God sees all and is everywhere.

Says who? How would we know if there are seven certain spirits that He sends out? to watch and be His eyes or some such? Why offer your opinion as absolute when you have no clue?

The 10,000 x 10,000 hosts from heaven dent mean 200 million, it simply means the complete hosts of heaven will be with Jesus. The 7 Churches represent the complete church age. God stated He had saved Himself 7000 men (7 x 10 x 10 x 10) so did He save 7000 or 144,000 or do you not understand BOTH are the same number, COMPLETENESS as in 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 and 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10.

Obsession with numbers we do not understand aside, who says there were not 7000 men that did not bend the knee?? Who says that the death toll in an earthquake mentioned at the very end in Israel was not actually 7000??

Revelation 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The MYSTERY is revealed, the Angel in verse 7 says COME let my show you the Mystery of the Harlot (ALL FALSERELIGION) and the Beasts she rides on (ALL False Governance). False Religion and False Governance was UNITED for eons. But the last Beast and his 10 (E.U.) Kings will kill off the Harlot because they demand Beast Worship only.

I think some people's problem seems to be they don't admit they don't know, and proceed to build a house of cards on guesses,hunches,wild ideas and 'God told me so'. The result is the sort of pile of confused utterances we see you offer.

Thus I knew it was not Rome, but that Babylon was a code name for the WHOLE WORLD.

We do know that it was a great city. That it made other nations rich. That it traded. That is influenced the world a lot. etc. So, rather than be 'the whole world' it seems to be a specific power. Notice I said 'seems to be' rather than 'it is a code word for the whole world'? You should try it.

 

[The Light]

Right, there is no law that says we have to be right all the time.
So you are saying that the Rapture is the sixth seal apparently. I guess you think that is when the heavens roll up and etc.

Actually, I believe that the rapture of the Church likely happens at Rev 4. It will be pretrib as we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. I believe that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood for a reason. When the Church is raptured, the Lord Himself will come at the trump of God or voice of God. Once the Church is raptured, God will turn His attention to His chosen bride. Part of the Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Then at the 6th seal the Lord will return for the gathering from heaven and earth. He will send His angels to gather His elect. It is the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth at this time. It will happen at the last trump. Then the wrath of God begins.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. This is a fact.

Hos 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Also, Jacob had two brides. Leah was the first bride and he had to work 7 more years for his chosen bride Rachel.

 

[Davy]

You are welcome to your pet theories. When I see God choosing 12,000 people from each of the tribes of Israel, well, it is what it is, no Alaska needed.

You'd do well to get back into your Bible and study instead of calling God's Word "pet theories". If you had read your Old Testament Bible histories then you'd also know how the two 'houses' apply to the 144,000 of Rev.7, but you show you obviously don't have a clue of that either.

So when Israel is attacked, (as in the topic here) do you think that they are attacking the wrong place and people? Do you think God lost anything? He doesn't even lose out bodies if we are incinerated or drowned, why would He lose track of whole tribes?
Who cares? God knows how to pick people from where He says.
Referring to people that way in that time was fine. It did not make Jesus lose track of the children of Abraham and Jacob. Relax.

They will attack BOTH Israels, the "house of Israel" (Christian nations), AND the "house of Judah" (holy land). But like most deceived Jews, you admit you don't care with your statement, "Who cares?" Thus you don't have a clue about what's to happen on the last day of this world, and even admit it in your own words, "Who cares?"

But in Romans 9, Apostle Paul pulls in the whole Christian Church when quoting from Hosea about the ten tribe's final establishing under Christ along with believing Gentiles.

The more you talk, the more Biblical ignorance you show. The Book of Hosea was specifically... written ONLY to the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", called the "house of Israel" there. God was showing how Israel (northern ten tribe kingdom) fell into false worship against Him, and He was getting ready to end that northern kingdom He gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim per 1 Kings 11. In 2 Kings 15-17, God brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern ten tribe kingdom, in stages, and removed all of the ten tribes captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. NONE of that involved the southern kingdom of Judah.

The Book of Hosea was God's announcement He would end that northern kingdom, and what He would do with them thereafter. And in final is when He said He would give them a new covenant, and they would then 'know' Him, and call Him "Ishi".

The following Hosea passages were ORIGINALLY written about, and to, the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", called the "house of Israel"...

Hos 2:14-23
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call Me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

19 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20 I will even betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, "Thou art My people"; and they shall say, "Thou art My God."
KJV

Apostle Paul quoted only the 23rd verse in Romans 9 to Gentile Roman believers of Christ's Church. But that was 'originally' given ONLY to the ten tribes of Israel through God's prophet Hosea. The reason Apostle Paul applied that to Christ's Church is because Paul well knew where the majority of the ten tribes had been scattered to, i.e., to Asia Minor and Europe. Paul also well understood that idea in Hosea ultimately applied to ALL of Christ's Church in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, to include... the majority of the ten scattered tribes of Israel along with believing Gentiles. This is why later in Romans 11 Paul also covers the idea of God having preserved a remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, meaning those would be 'in Christ Jesus'.

So ultimately, by Paul quoting from Hosea in Romans 9 to Christians, he was showing how God had scattered the ten tribes of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL among the Gentiles to where The Gospel would be sent after having been rejected in Jerusalem, and they would believe along with the Gentiles, both together making up the majority of Christ's Church today.

Again, not even in the ballpark. You do realize when 'that day' is?

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

That is when He returns. Not today. Not in Hosea's day. When Israel is saved and He comes, did you think He would have any problem knowing who is who??
Why continue to make things up that are foolish lies? I never heard of 'Jewish cults' let alone read them!

In that day...get it yet?

No, you are wrong. When Paul quoted from Hosea in Romans 9, he was applying that to his days with preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles. Now those final prophecies in Hosea do also point to Christ's future Salvation on the day of His coming, but not that covenant in Hosea, because it involves The New Covenant. There is NO MENTION in God's Word about another... Covenant involving The Gospel being made for AFTER Jesus returns in the future. And those 'betrothal' passages from God in those Hosea passages is pointing to those in Christ Jesus being already, today, chaste virgins waiting on their true Husband Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 11).

 

[dad]

Actually, I believe that the rapture of the Church likely happens at Rev 4. It will be pretrib as we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. I believe that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood for a reason. When the Church is raptured, the Lord Himself will come at the trump of God or voice of God. Once the Church is raptured, God will turn His attention to His chosen bride. Part of the Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Then at the 6th seal the Lord will return for the gathering from heaven and earth. He will send His angels to gather His elect. It is the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth at this time. It will happen at the last trump. Then the wrath of God begins.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. This is a fact.

Hos 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Also, Jacob had two brides. Leah was the first bride and he had to work 7 more years for his chosen bride Rachel.

That is interesting. So you do not consider any of the Tribulation the wrath of God, only after that second harvest?

 

[Davy]

Actually, I believe that the rapture of the Church likely happens at Rev 4. It will be pretrib as we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

No such doctrine written in God's Word. You are relying on men's leaven doctrines.

Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He taught about there, the "great tribulation". And don't make the mistake of saying I'm wrong about that, because it's not me that said that, it was our Lord Jesus Christ Who said that's when His coming to gather us will be.

 

[dad]

You'd do well to get back into your Bible and study instead of calling God's Word "pet theories". If you had read your Old Testament Bible histories then you'd also know how the two 'houses' apply to the 144,000 of Rev.7, but you show you obviously don't have a clue of that either.

Why would it matter if anything applied to the tribes God picks people from in the end? Are you saying they are not Jews (as is commonly thought of as Jews)

They will attack BOTH Israels, the "house of Israel" (Christian nations), AND the "house of Judah" (holy land). But like most deceived Jews, you admit you don't care with your statement, "Who cares?" Thus you don't have a clue about what's to happen on the last day of this world, and even admit it in your own words, "Who cares?"

Well obviously they try to attack all believers. That is news? You just want to lump gentile and Jew together apparently. Why not just be clear?

The more you talk, the more Biblical ignorance you show. The Book of Hosea was specifically... written ONLY to the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", called the "house of Israel" there.

It was also for us today. But who cares who you think it was TO? The main thing is when the prophesy talks about. That is still future. So why try to use that for your alternative history lesson?

God was showing how Israel (northern ten tribe kingdom) fell into false worship against Him, and He was getting ready to end that northern kingdom He gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim per 1 Kings 11. In 2 Kings 15-17, God brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern ten tribe kingdom, in stages, and removed all of the ten tribes captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. NONE of that involved the southern kingdom of Judah.

So what? The 12 tribes God picks people from obviously DO involve Israel. Not just some old division either.

The Book of Hosea was God's announcement He would end that northern kingdom, and what He would do with them thereafter. And in final is when He said He would give them a new covenant, and they would then 'know' Him, and call Him "Ishi".

Not when it talked of 'in that day' etc. You are conflating history with future.

The following Hosea passages were ORIGINALLY written about, and to, the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", called the "house of Israel"...

Hos 2:14-23
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call Me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

In that day. You know when that is?

17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

In that day. Nothing to do with what tribes Jesus picked Jews from.

19 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20 I will even betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, "Thou art My people"; and they shall say, "Thou art My God."
KJV

We know all Israel will be saved in that day. So God is not just talking to half of Israel or whatever.

Apostle Paul quoted only the 23rd verse in Romans 9 to Gentile Roman believers of Christ's Church. But that was 'originally' given ONLY to the ten tribes of Israel through God's prophet Hosea.

So what? It is about the future.

The reason Apostle Paul applied that to Christ's Church is because Paul well knew where the majority of the ten tribes had been scattered to, i.e., to Asia Minor and Europe.

Paul said that was the reason?

Paul also well understood that idea in Hosea ultimately applied to ALL of Christ's Church in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, to include... the majority of the ten scattered tribes of Israel along with believing Gentiles. This is why later in Romans 11 Paul also covers the idea of God having preserved a remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, meaning those would be 'in Christ Jesus'.

You seem to be reading into the passages. You don't know why Paul did anything. Some Jews believed in Jesus, and so even then a remnant were saved. What is the big deal?

So ultimately, by Paul quoting from Hosea in Romans 9 to Christians, he was showing how God had scattered the ten tribes of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL among the Gentiles to where The Gospel would be sent after having been rejected in Jerusalem, and they would believe along with the Gentiles, both together making up the majority of Christ's Church today.

That is your take on his motives and the interpretation of what was said. Quite a skewed take I might add. Why are you so bent out of shape on making Jews mean gentiles and etc?

No, you are wrong. When Paul quoted from Hosea in Romans 9, he was applying that to his days with preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles. Now those final prophecies in Hosea do also point to Christ's future Salvation on the day of His coming, but not that covenant in Hosea, because it involves The New Covenant.

So who do you think a new covenant in Hosea was for exactly?

There is NO MENTION in God's Word about another... Covenant involving The Gospel being made for AFTER Jesus returns in the future.

The prophesies tell us of things to come, they don't seem concerned with your arbitrary little concepts of supposed various covenants or Alaska!

And those 'betrothal' passages from God in those Hosea passages is pointing to those in Christ Jesus being already, today, chaste virgins waiting on their true Husband Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 11).

Well, not sure Hosea was specially talking about saved gentiles in this particular age. You do seem to read a lot into the verses. Why so desperate to eliminate Jews?

 

[dad]

No such doctrine written in God's Word. You are relying on men's leaven doctrines.

Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He taught about there, the "great tribulation". And don't make the mistake of saying I'm wrong about that, because it's not me that said that, it was our Lord Jesus Christ Who said that's when His coming to gather us will be.

The poster mentioned that there were two harvests. The one does not preclude the other, or take away from it.

 

[The Light]

That is interesting. So you do not consider any of the Tribulation the wrath of God, only after that second harvest?

No, the word says in Matt 24, Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....Jesus comes. When we match that coming up with the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars in Rev 6, we can see that the wrath of God has not begun. So the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

When you think about it, there are plenty of people that have reasons to believe that there will be a pretribulation rapture. Then there are plenty of people that can prove the rapture is prewrath. The truth is, they are both right.

What's interesting, is if you just read what the Word says, and accept what it says, everything falls in place perfectly. For instance, when the word says that there are 144,000 male virgins from the 12 tribes, that's what it means. We don't have to make anything up. Everything falls into place perfectly.

Two things that you need to understand. First, the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Secondly, the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.
Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, Jesus has returned and Armageddon has happened. The seven vials are just a different view of the time period of the 7 trumpets. They are both Gods wrath.

Revelation 13 and 14 occur during the 6 seals.

 

[The Light]

No such doctrine written in God's Word. You are relying on men's leaven doctrines.
Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He taught about there, the "great tribulation". And don't make the mistake of saying I'm wrong about that, because it's not me that said that, it was our Lord Jesus Christ Who said that's when His coming to gather us will be.

Yeah, many people can pinpoint the coming of Jesus to AFTER THE TRIBULATION. And yet, He is coming in an hour that you think not. I'd say both are correct. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

 

[Keraz]

Yeah, many people can pinpoint the coming of Jesus to AFTER THE TRIBULATION. And yet, He is coming in an hour that you think not. I'd say both are correct.

There are two 'comings' of Jesus in the future.
The first will be the 'coming' in His fiery wrath, when He won't be seen. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11
That forthcoming worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, is the sudden and shocking event, that comes as a thief.

The actual 'coming', the glorious Return of Jesus, seen by all, Revelation 1:7, will not be unexpected as anyone with a Bible can know He will Return exactly 1260 days [42 months] after the Temple is defiled. Revelation 13:5-7
Matthew 24:29-30 is perfectly clear: AFTER the distress....of the Great Tribulation.

How can people think that Jesus will Return as a thief? That notion is ludicrous in the extreme!