The Pre-Trib Rapture

[farouk]

Not sure what you mean by ‘remoting’.
I agree that Christ will reign on earth, most likely from Jerusalem. But I reject the idea that it will be…or can be seen in scripture to be…some ‘intermediate’ age between this one, and the eternal one. I think Christ will reign, physically on earth, during the eternal age, on the new earth in the new Jerusalem.


Hmmm. Too bad the Millennium is not supportable as an intermediate age.

Hi @Naomi25 Do you really see the 1000 years as figurative?

 

[Naomi25]

In Christ, all the promises are yes and amen! I don't think that's what you are looking for , but I need a more specific question.

Much love!

Galatians 3:7-9
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Galatians 3:25-29
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.


Well okay! I’ve added some other passages to help with context…my question is: how do you understand the OT passages speaking of promises to Israel when considered in light of these passages…as well as the Rom 9:6-9 passage?
Do you consider them completely separate? Or do you believe that what is written/revealed in the NT must have some bearing on the topic?

 

[Naomi25]

Being in sin is not in God's image, so your indignation of inequality is pointless. God does not view us as male or female as one being more favored over the other.

Spare me your disdain. The idea that women do not have the same inherent value afforded to all humanity is both unbiblical and absurd. And pretending like I’m wringing my hands like a soy boy over it is misleading. Should I not be bothered by your blatant heretical claims, it would prove my own faithlessness towards scripture.

. If you do not accept in Genesis 2 that Eve was taken out of Adam, then your view parts from God's Word.

I accept it just fine. But your ducking of logic here astounds me.
Follow me: there are two strong cases to be made for Eve also sharing the ‘image of God’. The first is: she is made from Adam. Far from dismissing the notion, it proves it. If Eve is a subset of Adam, she must, logically, share his attributes. And if Adam is made in God’s image, Eve also fundamentally shares it.
The other reason is one of ‘kind’. God creates things in ‘their kind’. Mankind is made up of male and female. Again, it is absurd to assume God created ‘mankind’ and then created Eve as a different ‘kind’.

.
"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

This is not symbolism for this:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,"

The sons of God multiplied and filled the earth.

Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden.

I’ve not claimed symbolism here. What I claim is your proclivity to take a text and insert ‘facts’ into it that is simply not there.
The bible tells us God made Adam, and placed him in the garden. It also tells us that he made Eve, to be his helpmate, and told them both to multiply and fill the earth.
Your insistence that Adam was first taken out of a whole group of other folks…which made him lonely….is simply NOT in the text.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, all things were created in the first 6 days.

Yes, those created on the 6th Day could still hold council with God. They are still glorified like we will be at the Second Coming, when we are restored as sons of God.

1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Now, now. If we’re taking scripture at face value, then I’m sorry….humans created on Day 6 is NOT them being present at “the laying of the foundations of the earth”.
Let’s remember what happened on Day 1 - “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”
Day 6 is not Day 1.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 Do you really see the 1000 years as figurative?

Yes…I think I must. For many reasons, actually.
The first would be how the bible describes the various ‘ages’. The NT consistently refers to ‘this age’ and ‘the age to come’. And when we look at those two phrases, we see that ‘this age’ is always temporal, physical, sinful, fallen, broken. ‘The age to come’ is eternal, perfect…also physical. There is simply no reference to an ‘intermediate’ age, where things are sort of better but where sin and death still occur.
The second reason follows the first; where do we see in scripture a time period where folks in ‘redeemed’ bodies dwell side by side with those still in ‘sinful bodies’? Doesn’t even reference to Christ’s return lead us to understand that at his return believers will receive their resurrection bodies, and sinners will be judged?
The third reason is how the NT…Jesus and the NT writers, refer to the Kingdom. Jesus tells us that it ‘doesn’t come in a way to be observed’ and is ‘among you’. He tells us that it starts like a small seed and grows. If the only kingdom is the 1000 years millennium, started at Christ’s return and made up of believers, both in new and old bodies, then the kingdom comes will all believers…as we are told the dead in Christ also received their new bodies at his return.
Paul tells us that Christ is ruling now over every power and authority (Eph 1:20) and that he ‘hands the kingdom to God’ at his return after he defeats the last enemy, death. (1 Cor 15:24) If people are either given their new bodies, or sentenced to judgement at Christ’s coming, then indeed that is the moment when death is defeated.
My last reason is Daniel. He envisions an ‘everlasting kingdom’ that will fill the whole earth (the stone that becomes a mountain). He doesn’t envision a kingdom that is now…and then there is also then (1000 yrs) and then also the eternal age. No…it’s one kingdom that lasts forever. That means, I suggest, that the kingdom began at Christ’s first coming, and will last forever.

I could go on in more depth, but I trust that is enough to help you realise why I see the 1000 year kingdom as both symbolic (number wise, not in truth) and now.

 

[farouk]

Yes…I think I must. For many reasons, actually.
The first would be how the bible describes the various ‘ages’. The NT consistently refers to ‘this age’ and ‘the age to come’. And when we look at those two phrases, we see that ‘this age’ is always temporal, physical, sinful, fallen, broken. ‘The age to come’ is eternal, perfect…also physical. There is simply no reference to an ‘intermediate’ age, where things are sort of better but where sin and death still occur.
The second reason follows the first; where do we see in scripture a time period where folks in ‘redeemed’ bodies dwell side by side with those still in ‘sinful bodies’? Doesn’t even reference to Christ’s return lead us to understand that at his return believers will receive their resurrection bodies, and sinners will be judged?
The third reason is how the NT…Jesus and the NT writers, refer to the Kingdom. Jesus tells us that it ‘doesn’t come in a way to be observed’ and is ‘among you’. He tells us that it starts like a small seed and grows. If the only kingdom is the 1000 years millennium, started at Christ’s return and made up of believers, both in new and old bodies, then the kingdom comes will all believers…as we are told the dead in Christ also received their new bodies at his return.
Paul tells us that Christ is ruling now over every power and authority (Eph 1:20) and that he ‘hands the kingdom to God’ at his return after he defeats the last enemy, death. (1 Cor 15:24) If people are either given their new bodies, or sentenced to judgement at Christ’s coming, then indeed that is the moment when death is defeated.
My last reason is Daniel. He envisions an ‘everlasting kingdom’ that will fill the whole earth (the stone that becomes a mountain). He doesn’t envision a kingdom that is now…and then there is also then (1000 yrs) and then also the eternal age. No…it’s one kingdom that lasts forever. That means, I suggest, that the kingdom began at Christ’s first coming, and will last forever.

I could go on in more depth, but I trust that is enough to help you realise why I see the 1000 year kingdom as both symbolic (number wise, not in truth) and now.

Thanks, @Naomi25 , for the reply. I must confess I do see it as literal, not least because of seeing Jews, Gentiles and the church of God as distinct groups (1 Corinthians 10.32); thus, the rapture by definition relates to the church, whereas the rule on earth in power and glory relates to another aspect of the Lord's coming.

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus is depicted as coming in the 6th seal not the 7th. This is just Shepherd Chapel nonsense.

Okay, where in scripture do you see Christ coming in the 6th seal ?

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when He (The Lamb) had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black
as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Help me out with the non sense

 

[ewq1938]

Okay, where in scripture do you see Christ coming in the 6th seal ?

The 6th seal. Don't you know where in scripture that is?

 

[n2thelight]

The 6th seal. Don't you know where in scripture that is?

Evidently I don't

 

[ewq1938]

Evidently I don't

Ok, wasn't prepared for that but here is the 6th seal describing the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The second coming in the Olivet Discourse has very similar language:


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[n2thelight]

Ok, wasn't prepared for that but here is the 6th seal describing the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The second coming in the Olivet Discourse has very similar language:


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So you saying Christ will open the 7th seal while here on earth ?

 

[ewq1938]

So you saying Christ will open the 7th seal while here on earth ?

No. The seals are only info about future events. The 6th seal talks about the second coming but the second coming does not happen when the 6th seal is opened. The second coming happens when the 7th trump sounds.

I am only proving the whole 777 return of Christ is false because the 6th seal is talking about the second coming. The 7th seal does not.

Are you SC?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The whole 7 years is broadly called the “Great Tribulation”, which gives us notice it is Controlled By Gods Power and to WHOM He gives “power”.
We already know, ALL power comes from God.
We already know, Satan (all angels holy and otherwise) have more power than men.
We already know, Satan shall be given “power” over the earth and it’s inhabitants, for a little while.
We already know, the “last Great Tribulation”, is divided in 3’s, Seals, Trumps, Vials.
We already know, there are 7 Seals, 7 Trumps, 7 Vials, and each comes successively after the other, AND each succession INCREASES ...
Negative, Destruction upon the Earth, and Upon the Earth’s inhabitants.

Yes, Some people call the last portion (ie the 7 vials) the Great Tribulation, probably because During the Vials, there is no recourse for men to become Forgiven and Saved.
(Where as during the Seals and Trumps, men can turn to Belief and become Saved).

IF you review, the things that occur DURING the Seals and the Trumps....and might picture yourself being Present ON EARTH....you might rethink that ONLY the “Great Tribulation” applies to the vials.

For example during the Seals ...things that will occur;
* Satan given power to Conquer, to take Peace from the Earth, to control buying and selling, to kill ¼ of the world through military and hunger.
* God will cause earthquakes and the Blacken Sunlight.

During the Trumps for example...things that will occur;
Fire, hail, blood raining down killing ⅓ of all trees. Mountains falling down.
⅓ of seas become blood.
⅓ of sea animas killed.
⅓ of ships in seas destroyed.
⅓ of sea waters made bitter.
⅓ of sun, stars, of moon stops shinning.
Bottomless pit opened, Smoke arises, blocks sun light.
⅓ of men die
Theft, murder, societies, fornication continues.

Personally, I find the things occurring during the Seals and Trumps Great and increasingly catastrophic without time or means to recover before more is manifested.

In my view, the seals predict the events surrounding the Jewish-Roman Wars of the first century, and the trumpets are yet in our future. The Great Tribulation began with Harod's persecution of Christians until today. This would also include the many persecutions of both Christians and Jews since that time. The GT will end at the return of Jesus Christ. That's how I see it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Coming out of great tribulation is the period of time since the Cross. Notice the absence of the definite article, "the"? The way it is read is coming out of great tribulation, not coming out of the great tribulation.

Similar is Jesus in saying after the tribulation of those days. Jesus did not say after the great tribulation. Jesus never declared one could know the Second Coming by certain signs. The restoration of the house of Jacob, is tied to the blooming of the fig tree. The church only benefits from the actual Second Coming, and the only sign is the actual Second Coming.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Both the sign and the Second Coming happen simultaneously. There is no warning, but like a thief in the night, the Second Coming will happen without any warning given. The only warning is spreading the Gospel and always being prepared. After 1992 years, many have seemingly become impatient, and have declared it was all finished soon after the Cross in the first century. There have been many tribulations, many wars, and many turning away from the Gospel, just like Jesus claimed in Matthew 24:4-14.

Could it be that the sign IS the second coming? :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus was speaking from the perspective of Israel, not the church. Paul is the only one who wrote from the perspective of the Gentile. Not even Revelation was written from a Gentile perspective. In fact the Thunders which will cover the Gentiles was sealed from being revealed. No one knows how God will deal with the Gentiles at the Second Coming, because no one was allowed to read what John wrote. John does not even describe the church after the first 3 chapters, which directly admonished 7 first century churches. The church is described as completed and in Paradise before the 7th Seal is opened in Revelation 7:9-17.

The church is symbolically referenced in the 5th Seal, but most interpret that as coming out of "the GT". It is not about the GT. Since the word church is not used, no one sees the 5th and 6th Seal as the rapture and Second Coming. That is the rapture and Second Coming! Many try to insert the rapture into the OD narrative even though it is about Israel. Then in Revelation 6 when the Seals are about the church, they try to insert the GT which is for Israel into the Seals which are about the church and not Israel.

So only Israel will face the GT, not the church. Christ and the angels will be dealing with Israel during the GT. The church will already be raptured and glorified prior to the GT.

Matthew 24:28 is not about the rapture, but the trouble Israel will face after the Second Coming.

I agree with most of your ideas here, except I believe that the Eagle/vulture analogy cryptically anticipates both the rapture and the battle of Armageddon. Matthew 24 is not the basis of my conclusion though. I am drawing from other prophetic texts.

 

[n2thelight]

No. The seals are only info about future events. The 6th seal talks about the second coming but the second coming does not happen when the 6th seal is opened. The second coming happens when the 7th trump sounds.

I am only proving the whole 777 return of Christ is false because the 6th seal is talking about the second coming. The 7th seal does not.

Are you SC?

I still see it as 777
SC ,yes I am

 

[ewq1938]

SC ,yes I am

Cool. I have seen you guys here and there...not so much in the last decade. For obvious reasons the others won't know. I disagree with what he taught on the 666 and 777 and have explained why.

 

[Taken]

In my view, the seals predict the events surrounding the Jewish-Roman Wars of the first century, and the trumpets are yet in our future. The Great Tribulation began with Harod's persecution of Christians until today. This would also include the many persecutions of both Christians and Jews since that time. The GT will end at the return of Jesus Christ. That's how I see it.

Thanks.
You have the seals predicting an event you say already occurred in the 1st century, (through Herod’s day to this day) and trumps in future.

I see a difference between “these last days” and “the last days”.
I see what you are speaking of, as “these last days” and “the last days” future....seals, trumps, vials.

Heb 1: (ie days from Jesus’ presence on Earth, through to the beginning of Tribulations of Gods Wrath)
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2 Tim 3: (ie days of Tribulations upon the Earth Because of Gods Wrath...ie seals, trumps, vials)
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

 

[n2thelight]

Cool. I have seen you guys here and there...not so much in the last decade. For obvious reasons the others won't know. I disagree with what he taught on the 666 and 777 and have explained why.

All good, one thing we do know is, ain't gonna be no rapture

 

[Truther]

Scripture for this is found where?

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 13:1-18 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (Read More...)

Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mark 13:1-37 - And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! (Read More...)

Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.