The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

That is what I said. All the church meets in mid-air at the Second Coming. The whole church is glorified as one group.

The church returns to Paradise. Jesus continues to the Mt. Of Olives to prevent Jerusalem from being attacked.

Then the final harvest starts with Christ the Prince on earth with the angels during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

The 5th Seal is Christ bringing those currently in Paradise with Him. John sees Paul's Second Coming from the perspective of Paradise. Paul sees John's Second Coming from the perspective of earth.

 

[ewq1938]

That is what I said. All the church meets in mid-air at the Second Coming. The whole church is glorified as one group.

The church returns to Paradise.

No, the church follows Christ to Armageddon.

Jesus continues to the Mt. Of Olives to prevent Jerusalem from being attacked.

Jerusalem isn't being attacked. It was occupied by the antichrist and his armies for 42 months by the time Christ and his army (the church and the angels) arrive at Armageddon.

 

[n2thelight]

That is what I said. All the church meets in mid-air at the Second Coming. The whole church is glorified as one group.

The church returns to Paradise. Jesus continues to the Mt. Of Olives to prevent Jerusalem from being attacked.

Then the final harvest starts with Christ the Prince on earth with the angels during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

The 5th Seal is Christ bringing those currently in Paradise with Him. John sees Paul's Second Coming from the perspective of Paradise. Paul sees John's Second Coming from the perspective of earth.

Noooo, Christ brings back with Him those who have died throughout time that believed upon Him ,the souls under the altar for example .
I cannot see for the life of me ,other than God blinding you'll , why you can't see this.

Those that believe and endure till the return ,ie, the end ,will be changed to those whom Christ brings with Him, Not because of some rapture ,but because they are with Him already . The instant you die , you return to God

 

[Timtofly]

Ah…yeah. You’re gonna need to show me some verses to back that idea up please.


I’m sorry…but I didn’t follow that. At all.

Genesis 2:8


"And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Genesis 1:26-30

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

We see God created many humans to fill the earth. Male and Female.

Then after the 7th Day, God came back planted a Garden separate from the rest of the earth. He took one man from the sons of God and put this unnamed man in the Garden. Adam was not created separately. But the Garden was planted after the 7th Day.

After the Flood only Adam's direct descendant, Noah was left on the earth. So, no where does it claim the sons of God created on the 6th day were left on earth. If you think they all rebelled or died, that is neither here nor there. Those who rebelled certainly were destroyed in the Flood.

But only Adam's family was left on the earth.

Do you need the Scripture where Abraham was called out of Adam's family to create another separate Nation from all the other Nations?

Now today, the church is called out and separated even from Abraham's nation and the whole of Adam's family.

The church is a separate kingdom from Abraham's family of Nations. It is those who return to the Garden/Paradise. But the rest of the world is going to be destroyed. Except Israel will still have a remnant. The Nation of Israel is still a separate kingdom, because it is based on earth, not in Paradise with Adam's family. And all the Nations will have a remnant as well, via those beheaded and resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

Israel was always the physical kingdom on earth. The church was the spiritual kingdom from above, Paradise. Israel was not the church called out of Egypt. Israel was a physical nation with physical laws, that foreshadowed the Lamb of God. Many of Israel were called into that heavenly kingdom. Many chose to reject both God's heavenly kingdom and the laws of the earthly kingdom. Israel was not just a corporate institution to broadly enter Paradise, because of one's physical birth.

That is the wrong interpretation of history, and then some claim to be spiritual Israel, when Israel was always physical and never spiritual. Only those born as a direct descendant of Jacob, can be a spiritual Israel, by also being born from above spiritually. Otherwise one is a spiritual American, a spiritual Egyptian, or whatever nationality, as well as born from above. Scripture just calls all the nations as Gentiles. No one is in or building the physical kingdom of Israel currently. That kingdom will not be resurrected, as in the valley of dry bones, until the Second Coming when Christ as Prince inherits the throne and reboots the kingdom of Israel. Israel stopped being a kingdom when the northern 10 tribes were exiled. Even though a remnant kept the Temple going the kingdom itself was dead. It was under the Greeks then the Romans, and then 70AD ended even that era.

 

[Timtofly]

Would you be able to post the verses where God makes it clear? Thanks…

Romans 11:23-26

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Paul said God could and would graft Israel back in. The Second Coming is the point of restoration. The Second Coming is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul said God could and would graft Israel back in.

That's not really what is said. First, we are talking branches as in singular people not an entire nation. Second, Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Individuals will only be regrafted IF they stop denying Christ is Messiah. Every year there are Israelites that accept Jesus but the majority remain in unbelief.

 

[Taken]

So these tribes saints are those who come to Christ after this rapture, may I ask how when rapturist claim the Holy Spirit will not be here?

1)Saints are Saved souls IN Heaven, who bodily died in Belief IN God.
2)Saints are Saved souls IN Heaven, who bodily died in Belief IN God & Jesus.
^ Their Body’s are raised AFTER 1,000 yr reign. <-Not Christ’s Church

3)Saints are Saved souls IN Heaven, who bodily died Converted IN Christ.
4)Saints are bodily alive men Converted IN Christ.
^ Their Body’s are raised BEFORE Trib. <- IS Christ’s Church

Who they are can be Jew or Gentile.

During the Tribulation, (Three) Teachings OF God and OF Jesus are given to men ON Earth...
1) In Jerusalem - By two Witnesses - Sent By God - To JEWS (Gods People).
2) In Mt. Zion - By A Lamb & 12,000 of each of the 12 Tribes - Sent By God - To ISRAEL (Gods People).
3) In the Whole World - By a Holy Angel Servant - Sent By God - To the Whole World (Unsure, Unbelievers, Unsaved).

Those ^ Do Not Become “Converted”, ( Which WOULD MEAN the Holy Spirit IS Present, and “IN” Dwells “IN” them. )
~ Those ^ some will still reject Belief...
~ Those ^ some will turn to Belief....
....Believing or Not Believing...Bodily Death May occur to them at any time.
....By destruction happening On the Earth..
....Or by armies of Satan for rejecting allegiance to him...

Those ^ Bodily Dying IN “BELIEF”, shall be Saved.
Those ^ Bodily Dying NOT IN “Belief”, shall NOT be Saved.

Point is the Difference...
* Saved BEFORE bodily death, REQUIRES the HOLY SPIRIT present for His Spirit to Enter the Person.
* Saved AFTER bodily death, DOES NOT REQUIRE the presence of the Holy Spirit “IN” the man WHILE the mans “SOUL” is IN the man.

** Every man’s (believer or not) “Living soul” DEPARTS His dying Body.
So say a man turns to belief during the Tribulation. And the man Bodily dies.
His Departed “Living Soul”, is ESCORTED to Heaven, BY Gods Servants, (Holy Angel), and that SOUL RECEIVES HIS SALVATION “THEN”. There That Saved Living Soul....Waits for his body to be resurrected. His Wait, is until After the Trib, and After Christ’s 1,000 year reign. Then his body shall be raised IN Glory, FOR having bodily Died....IN “BELIEF”.

** Scripture gives a lengthy teaching and warning...about “enduring” to the end. The “enduring” is an individual “BELIEVING”....to the end of his bodily life. Believing IS NOT SAVED/ Not converted. Believing is an Individuals Belief, that he can Continue or Stop at any time BY HIS OWN POWER, during his Bodily life. The Warning IS....Because of Evil Spirits / Wicked powerful men... which either can cunningly convince a man to Reject God....and follow them, their beliefs, things they advocate.
** A Converted man, has recognized his OWN POWER (is weak, is vulnerable to Evil Spirits / Wicked powerful men)....and Choose instead to Solicited the Lord Gods POWER TO, Enter them, Dwell IN THEM, and KEEP them IN BELIEF, eliminating the DANGER that they could be SWAYED by Evil Spirits or Wicked powerful men. They ARE secure, By the Almighty Power of God, IN THEM, TO KEEP them “WITH” God Forever.

** During the Trib, men coming into Belief, are NOT Protected by the Holy Spirit IN THEM.... Many will be on the cusp of eminent Bodily death... Horrific Weather Earthly Destruction, effected BY God...and Satan’s Armies seeking men, looking for men NOT in attested allegiance to Satan....
IF in one moment THEY Confess Belief IN GOD, or IN Jesus....and are Killed in the next moment....(while NOT Baptized IN the Holy Spirit, ie Holy Spirit dwelling IN them)....THEY SHALL BE SAVED....Their Living soul SHALL Depart their dying body, and that living soul escorted to Heaven by Angels and receive it’s Salvation then. God shall raise their body’s After the 1,000 yr reign.

** You can review Scriptures, Of ARE SAVED, and WILL BE SAVED...and the differences, which hang on....ARE Indwelt (baptized with the HS)....or WILL BE SAVED, “IF” they endure, (Continue) Believing to the end of their Bodily Death.

Did that Answer your question ?

 

[Taken]

That's not really what is said. First, we are talking branches as in singular people not an entire nation. Second, Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Individuals will only be regrafted IF they stop denying Christ is Messiah. Every year there are Israelites that accept Jesus but the majority remain in unbelief.

Broken off...Grafting in...Grafting BACK in....sort of funky terms.

Broken off, requires one to FIRST be PART OF/
Hebrews, Tribes, ARE Part of, (yes called ISRAEL a People).

For Centuries...ISRAEL...has run the gambit of “exclusive” People gathered together...to “mixed among” Gentiles...to “mixed WITH” Gentiles...to accepting “Gentiles” gods...to enslaved by Gentiles, yet keeping their adherence to “their God”....to living freely “among” Gentiles yet keeping adherence to “their God”....to living freely “among” Gentiles, KEEPING their “RACE of Jew heritage bloodline upfront”....yet having no adherence to “any god”. All specific to the “individuals” own freewill choice.

Scripturally, we find the TERM....”LOST”. That applies to the “JEWS” (tribes)...
Wandered off, from their God, (not particularly following “other” gods), but rather following after Gentile “ways”.... fame, fortune, power, in society among men who are impressed with A MANS works, OF fame, fortune, power....without regard to THEIR GOD, or NOT with regard to any “god”.
They are not “broken off”, as much as “LOST”. God will NOT “forsake them”.
* The “broken off”....applies to one WHO has FLAT OUT DENIED GOD....(God will reject them.)
opposed to moreso ...Believing, but IGNORING God, (God will not “forsake them”).

* the “grafted in”....is one who was NOT included to Begin with...ie Gentiles.
* Gentiles “Believing IN God”....who continue “BELIEVING” to their bodily death, SHALL be saved.
* Gentiles “Believing IN Jesus”....who continue “BELIEVING” to their bodily death, SHALL be saved.
* Tribesmen “Believing IN God”....who continue “BELIEVING” to their bodily death, SHALL be shaved.
* Tribesmen “Believing IN Jesus”....who continue “BELIEVING” to their bodily death, SHALL be saved.
* ANY man (tribesmen or gentile)...who while alive in his Flesh Body, and Baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, IS SAVED, before his bodily Death.

The bottom line is....anyone flat out rejecting God, or having an absolute attesting allegiance to another god....become flat out rejected by God...
Broken off (ie applies to ISRAEL)....or Never included (applies to GENTILES).

 

[Taken]

CadyandZoe said: ↑
Why? I still don't get it. Revelation 7 says that we all go through the GT.

Revelation 7 is speaking of expressly particular people...
144,000 VIRGIN Tribesmen of the 12 Tribes of Israel, who were set apart when the 12 Tribes were established....

Are “you” included as being one of the 144,000 Virgin Tribesmen set apart when the 12 Tribes were established? If not “you” are not who those “are”, that you are calling “we”.

Those 144,000 were set apart, long ago, for a particular mission DURING the Trib. That has nothing to do with Gentiles.

See?

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="CadyandZoe, post: 1234090, member: 8753"

So they believe that the trumpet judgments are the GT? Where did they get that idea?[/QUOTE]

Trumpets have been sounded all throughout Scripture. It is notice of a Warning something is about to immediately occur.

The Opening of the Seals, are revealings of what was Prophetically Foretold coming into fruition.

The Sounding of the Trumps, of Gods Servant Holy Angels is notice of Warnings of Prophetically Foretold Prophecy IS about to immediately occur.

Each Trump of Gods Holy Angels IN Revelations is expressly revealed. And the judgements immediately revealed after each Trump is sounded.
If you follow the Trumps being sounded...you will find SOME will suffer immediate Bodily Death.....others will suffer WOES....ie...suffer without Bodily dying.

Bodily Death...immediately ENDS “suffering” a BODY feels.
Remaining Bodily alive....and “suffering” a Body experiences the “suffering”.
...called Woes.

 

[n2thelight]

Did that Answer your question ?

Nope

You making it difficult when it shouldn't be . The flesh will not rise, at death it's done with .Those who die go straight to Heaven ,those in Him come with Him, not because of a rapture but because they are already there

 

[Taken]

Nope

You making it difficult when it shouldn't be . The flesh will not rise, at death it's done with .Those who die go straight to Heaven ,those in Him come with Him, not because of a rapture but because they are already there

It is easy, if you lump all together.
However ALL are NOT lumped together.
Fact is ALL flesh rises....but if you lump all together, you know not, when or why.....and make obscure statements.

When you simply say ALL who die go straight to Heaven....ALL what....
Body’s?, souls?, spirits? Who or what is already “there in Heaven”, and why?
How and when and why did ‘they’ get there?

Individuals can Lay out their OWN, what applies specifically to them...of what, when, where, why.........Yet when the discussion INCLUDES “others”...
The SAME does NOT apply to every individual...because individuals do not ALL choose the SAME things.

“In Him Come with Him”.....? Him WHO? Come from where to where? WHEN?
What is your vague comment talking about?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Trumpets have been sounded all throughout Scripture. It is notice of a Warning something is about to immediately occur.

The Opening of the Seals, are revealings of what was Prophetically Foretold coming into fruition.

The Sounding of the Trumps, of Gods Servant Holy Angels is notice of Warnings of Prophetically Foretold Prophecy IS about to immediately occur.

Each Trump of Gods Holy Angels IN Revelations is expressly revealed. And the judgements immediately revealed after each Trump is sounded.
If you follow the Trumps being sounded...you will find SOME will suffer immediate Bodily Death.....others will suffer WOES....ie...suffer without Bodily dying.

Bodily Death...immediately ENDS “suffering” a BODY feels.
Remaining Bodily alive....and “suffering” a Body experiences the “suffering”.
...called Woes.

Okay, I get that. But, I don't see the Tribulation tie-in.

Here is my problem. Tribulation = suffering. I get that. But not all suffering would qualify as "Great Tribulation", would it?

 

[Timtofly]

So, the question is, is this really the reason? Or is it something else, like, "this demonstrated their faith, and of course they are saved by faith." Well, yes, for whatever reason, they believed something that told them they had to do this.

They had no clue how their life would turn out. Their works could not have been because of faith. If they had had faith in Christ, they would have been part of the church that was glorified and in Paradise.

These were not righteous and left behind. These were lost, that when Jesus declared them sheep, He made them righteous. Still nothing they did made them righteous. God turned their filthy works into righteousness by His choice. They had no say in the matter.

These are the classic examples of the elect. They really have no choice in being elect. They cannot even reject the redemption in Christ at that point. The goats on the other hand, have no choice either. They cannot accept Christ at that point, the same as the sheep can no longer reject Christ.

Right now we can reject and we can accept by choice. But the sheep and goats will be of Israel. None of the Gentiles will be included in this judgment. I think Matthew 13 will be a harvest of the Gentiles alive at the Second Coming. Jesus sows the seeds of His kingdom during the Trumpets and the harvest happens during the Thunders. The wheat and tares are symbolic of those who listen to Jesus and the 144k, but many will listen to Satan and the deceived, probably the religious but lost of today, who will reject Jesus just like the Saducees and Pharisees of the first century. According to Matthew 13, this wheat is not leftover believers. The point is if one is deceived and think their gospel will get them to Paradise, that will not change, but their hearts will harden and they will continue to sow tares of more deceived religious followers. Matthew 13 was aimed at the Saducees and Pharisees, but the literal implication is after the Second Coming and after the church is gone.

That is what is dangerous about splitting the rapture and Second Coming. And Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. The church is not going to go through the Trumpets and Thunders. Christ and the angels will be on earth at that point. Only the sealed 144k are Christ's disciples on earth, not a church body, as the church was raptured at the Second Coming.

Those who claim the church goes through the tribulation base their assumptions on the wrong return. Revelation 19 only happens if Satan gets 42 months. Satan does not co reign with Christ for those 42 months. Christ leaves the temple and throne in Jerusalem per Daniel 9:27.

Satan does not ask God for 42 months. God does not just up and allow Satan 42 months. The only reason for those 42 months is that there are more souls who will reject Satan and choose to be beheaded instead. If there are no souls left on earth after the Thunders who will choose to be beheaded, God will know. That is what the confirming of the covenant with the many is. God is confirming there will be some left who will choose to be beheaded. If none are left, then there will be no 42 months given to Satan. Those 42 months are not for Satan at all. Those 42 months are not for desolation at all. Those 42 months are not for the FP nor the beast/AC. Those 42 months are not for the church to endure until the end. Those 42 months are not for the church at all.

All those who claim they need to go through the GT are literally declaring they are not the church. They are the gleanings who waited to get their head chopped off. Except those beheaded did not wait. They did not reject salvation nor accepted salvation prior to the Second Coming. If they had accepted, they would have been raptured at the Second Coming. If they had rejected prior to the Second Coming, they would continue to reject. They would be religious and certainly deceived at that point. Gleanings are by nature wheat never touched by the harvest. Not touched by any harvest period. The will of God is that all the wheat is gathered in a perfect harvest. But we can only know if the harvest was perfect until that 7th Trumpet sounds and the harvest is declared over. And that 7th Trumpet does not declare a Second Coming. That 7th Trumpet declares the Second Coming is finished and sealed into history as accomplished. Only if the week of the 7th Trumpet is split in half, will we know if Satan gets 42 months or not. It is not a done deal, even if prophecied. It is only a done deal, if no one is left who will choose beheadings during a period of a gleaning, and only at that point will God determine if another 42 months is necessary.

A gleaning cannot be declared until the harvest is in. Not that the "farmer" intentionally will leave a harvest for Satan. But I guess many will interpret Job, as an intentional trouble brought down on Job as in some kind of lab rat "scientific experiment".

 

[Taken]

Okay, I get that. But, I don't see the Tribulation tie-in.

Here is my problem. Tribulation = suffering. I get that. But not all suffering would qualify as "Great Tribulation", would it?

The whole 7 years is broadly called the “Great Tribulation”, which gives us notice it is Controlled By Gods Power and to WHOM He gives “power”.
We already know, ALL power comes from God.
We already know, Satan (all angels holy and otherwise) have more power than men.
We already know, Satan shall be given “power” over the earth and it’s inhabitants, for a little while.
We already know, the “last Great Tribulation”, is divided in 3’s, Seals, Trumps, Vials.
We already know, there are 7 Seals, 7 Trumps, 7 Vials, and each comes successively after the other, AND each succession INCREASES ...
Negative, Destruction upon the Earth, and Upon the Earth’s inhabitants.

Yes, Some people call the last portion (ie the 7 vials) the Great Tribulation, probably because During the Vials, there is no recourse for men to become Forgiven and Saved.
(Where as during the Seals and Trumps, men can turn to Belief and become Saved).

IF you review, the things that occur DURING the Seals and the Trumps....and might picture yourself being Present ON EARTH....you might rethink that ONLY the “Great Tribulation” applies to the vials.

For example during the Seals ...things that will occur;
* Satan given power to Conquer, to take Peace from the Earth, to control buying and selling, to kill ¼ of the world through military and hunger.
* God will cause earthquakes and the Blacken Sunlight.

During the Trumps for example...things that will occur;
Fire, hail, blood raining down killing ⅓ of all trees. Mountains falling down.
⅓ of seas become blood.
⅓ of sea animas killed.
⅓ of ships in seas destroyed.
⅓ of sea waters made bitter.
⅓ of sun, stars, of moon stops shinning.
Bottomless pit opened, Smoke arises, blocks sun light.
⅓ of men die
Theft, murder, societies, fornication continues.

Personally, I find the things occurring during the Seals and Trumps Great and increasingly catastrophic without time or means to recover before more is manifested.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do the days need to be shortened: too many days or the intensity of the days? It seems to me that if all the saints down through history have suffered the tribulation, then the number of days of tribulation is what makes it a "great" tribulation. No?

Coming out of great tribulation is the period of time since the Cross. Notice the absence of the definite article, "the"? The way it is read is coming out of great tribulation, not coming out of the great tribulation.

Similar is Jesus in saying after the tribulation of those days. Jesus did not say after the great tribulation. Jesus never declared one could know the Second Coming by certain signs. The restoration of the house of Jacob, is tied to the blooming of the fig tree. The church only benefits from the actual Second Coming, and the only sign is the actual Second Coming.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Both the sign and the Second Coming happen simultaneously. There is no warning, but like a thief in the night, the Second Coming will happen without any warning given. The only warning is spreading the Gospel and always being prepared. After 1992 years, many have seemingly become impatient, and have declared it was all finished soon after the Cross in the first century. There have been many tribulations, many wars, and many turning away from the Gospel, just like Jesus claimed in Matthew 24:4-14.

 

[Timtofly]

I explain this in my video "What are the days of the son of man?" But essentially, Jesus speaks about a time when two men will be asleep; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women grinding at the mill; one will be taken the other left.

He also talks about a situation in which folks will be required to leave home in haste, and his advice to them is that they don't enter the house or come home from the field.

These are two completely different situations. In the first case, the man or woman has no advanced warning, and no decision point. The man is asleep and doesn't make the choice to leave. He is taken without anyone asking his permission. In the second case, individuals are free to make the choice whether or not to leave home, and they have the choice whether or not to enter the house to pick up a few things.

The first case is the rapture of the church. And the disciples ask Jesus where these folks will be taken, and he cryptically answers. "where the eagles gather around the dead body." That is, up in the air.

Therefore, Matthew 24:28 is the rapture.

Jesus was speaking from the perspective of Israel, not the church. Paul is the only one who wrote from the perspective of the Gentile. Not even Revelation was written from a Gentile perspective. In fact the Thunders which will cover the Gentiles was sealed from being revealed. No one knows how God will deal with the Gentiles at the Second Coming, because no one was allowed to read what John wrote. John does not even describe the church after the first 3 chapters, which directly admonished 7 first century churches. The church is described as completed and in Paradise before the 7th Seal is opened in Revelation 7:9-17.

The church is symbolically referenced in the 5th Seal, but most interpret that as coming out of "the GT". It is not about the GT. Since the word church is not used, no one sees the 5th and 6th Seal as the rapture and Second Coming. That is the rapture and Second Coming! Many try to insert the rapture into the OD narrative even though it is about Israel. Then in Revelation 6 when the Seals are about the church, they try to insert the GT which is for Israel into the Seals which are about the church and not Israel.

So only Israel will face the GT, not the church. Christ and the angels will be dealing with Israel during the GT. The church will already be raptured and glorified prior to the GT.

Matthew 24:28 is not about the rapture, but the trouble Israel will face after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

I think, when we look at passages like Matt 25, we must understand them in the clear light of what other scripture teaches about justification. If we want to avoid the notion that scripture contradicts scripture, that is.

The context of Matthew 25 is post the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the fulness of the Gentiles prior to the Second Coming.

Of course Amil would then have to consider life on earth post the Second Coming. If the Second Coming is final, then Matthew 25 cannot even exist, as it is the period after the so called finality of the Second Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course Amil would then have to consider life on earth post the Second Coming. If the Second Coming is final, then Matthew 25 cannot even exist, as it is the period after the so called finality of the Second Coming.

Matthew 25:31-46 is nothing more than a "Parable" to "Herdsmen" using sheep/goats in explanation of the great white throne judgement in Revelation 20:11-15

Yes Matthew 25:46 clearly shows this "final judgement", eternal life, eternal punishment, (The End) no Millennial Kingdom on this earth following as many claim

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Timtofly]

I am trying…perhaps miserably!…to describe how things will look ‘on the ground’, so to speak, if we follow Dispensational teaching logically. I do wish I could draw some pictures here…visuals are so helpful sometimes!

Here’s how I see it:
The NT teaches that there is a single tree. Made up of believers…both Jew and Gentile. It’s called the ‘church’, the ‘body of Christ’ and even referred to as the recipient of Abraham’s promises (offspring, heirs of promise).
Dispensationalists seem to believe that there is biblical evidence for a Rapture of this church (which means the ‘tree/body’ essentially looses it’s branches/members), but then there will be a time when people can still ‘come to Christ’. Both Jews and Gentiles. But they claim that during this time, even though folks are still saved by coming to Christ, the ‘tree/body’ metaphor no longer works. Jews and Gentiles will no longer be grafted onto that tree…they will be separate. Or, if we do stick with the tree/body metaphor, the tree/body must be separate from one another. Jews one side, Gentiles the other, but both still growing out of Christ.

My point…or question I suppose, is where do we see this in the NT? What makes us think that the ‘tree/body’ will be stripped but then have the opportunity to grow again, but in a different state (essential two trees growing from the same root..which is Christ).
Where do we see anything that suggests that people coming to Christ will be anything other than ‘the body of Christ’…which IS the Church? What makes us think the tree/body will be removed in ‘phase 1’…so to speak…but then ‘phase 2’ will then go ahead but with different parameters. Especially when Paul highlights that the current tree/body are Abraham’s offspring/heirs. Why do we even need ‘phase 2’ if ‘phase 1’ inherits all those promises?

I don’t think I’ve explained that very well…I’m having a crappy week and my thoughts are all over the shop. But hopefully you get my meaning.

Stop looking at it as a tree?

Look at it as the Lamb's book of life.

Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.

The church leaves before the 7th Seal is opened and cannot be ever removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those currently in sheol are technically still in the Lamb's book of life. They will stand as dead at the GWT to either remain and allowed eternal life, or removed and cast into the LOF.

This leaves the post Second Coming people alive on earth, and even those born over the next 1000 years. The book is open, any one can be removed who are alive on earth at any moment. The iron rod rule, where names can be removed, but only for a specific reason.

So how does the Lamb's book of life work just like the tree metaphor? Israel as a nation was a guaranteed shoe in. Except even God reserved the right to place even those of Israel into sheol until the GWT. That was pointed out when the ground opened at Mt. Sinai and swallowed whole hundreds of Israelites. God showed them at the giving of the Law, He was being serious about their status, and they better tow the line. They still did not get it when they approached the Promised Land. They still balked and God made them wander for 40 years till that generation died. All Paul pointed out was that God was finished with Israel, not that they all were condemned to death. God was just giving the "branch status" to the church, called the fulness of the Gentiles.

No nation was ever guaranteed to remain in the Lamb's book of life corporately, not even the church as a whole. Remaining in the Lamb's book of life was still an individual choice.