Seems like the great tribulation in Matthew 24 and the tribulation principle in John 16 are distinct...
The Pre-Trib Rapture
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Matthew 24:21-22 KJV
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
To me this passage is saying that nothing would be left alive on the earth, not just the Levant.
Revelation 13:5-8 KJV
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This also seems global to me.
The way they read, it does not seem so to me.
Revelation 8:7-13 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9) And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13) And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Where is the limit to Israel in any of these? I'm not seeing that.
Revelation 9:14-18 KJV
14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Much love!
It's the inclusivity of the language.
"The servants of God were sealed".
Much love!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, but I think in the context of Matthew 24, The great tribulation is a complex concept. On the one hand, both Jesus followers and Jewish people who fear the Lord have suffered persecution from Acts 12 forward. The seventh chapter of the book of Revelation explicitly says that "a great multitude which no one could count" would come out of the great tribulation. This would include both Jews and Gentiles.
But when Jesus talks about "the elect" he is talking about the Jewish elect. The Christian Elect are in no danger of being wiped out by a Great Tribulation. On the other hand, if antisemitism were to continue beyond a certain point, all Jewish flesh would be gone from the earth. Jesus is saying, for the sake of the Jewish elect, the days of antisemitism will be cut short so as to avoid a complete genocide.
Matthew 24:31, I believe, is explained in detail in Joel chapter 2, where the priests will call the people to gather and assemble in Jerusalem.
Some of those passages don't seem to relate to the church at all. By definition, it's the church that is taken at the rapture; 1 Corinthians 11.26, etc.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
But in the same context, Jesus speaks about leaving the city of Jerusalem, heading for the mountains of Judah. Doesn't this seem localized to Judah?
Granted, but I don't see a universal application either. I find it interesting that burning, fire and trumpets are essential elements of Joel's prophecy. Joel also mentions the rivers being dried up, and locusts.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, the rapture is the gathering of the church in the air to be with the Lord. Matthew 24:28
But those who see the sign of the son of man are those who have been gathered to Jerusalem to pray for the nation of Israel during a time of burning and judgment. Refer to Malachi 4, Isaiah 4, and Joel 2.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay, but the church is already sealed. They can still live during the same time period right?
Matthew 24:16-18 KJV
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
An instruction to those in Judaea.
Matthew 24:21-22 KJV
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
A statement of the scope of the tribulation.
Let each say what it says.
Much love!
Actually I don't see the rapture in Matthew 24; it seems that Matthew 24 would deal more with tribulation saints.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, okay. But same issue. Nothing about the seals or trumpets indicates when the rapture takes place. Does it? I may have missed something.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Why do the days need to be shortened: too many days or the intensity of the days? It seems to me that if all the saints down through history have suffered the tribulation, then the number of days of tribulation is what makes it a "great" tribulation. No?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I explain this in my video "What are the days of the son of man?" But essentially, Jesus speaks about a time when two men will be asleep; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women grinding at the mill; one will be taken the other left.
He also talks about a situation in which folks will be required to leave home in haste, and his advice to them is that they don't enter the house or come home from the field.
These are two completely different situations. In the first case, the man or woman has no advanced warning, and no decision point. The man is asleep and doesn't make the choice to leave. He is taken without anyone asking his permission. In the second case, individuals are free to make the choice whether or not to leave home, and they have the choice whether or not to enter the house to pick up a few things.
The first case is the rapture of the church. And the disciples ask Jesus where these folks will be taken, and he cryptically answers. "where the eagles gather around the dead body." That is, up in the air.
Therefore, Matthew 24:28 is the rapture.
By definition, the rapture relates to the church rather than to tribulation saints. The church is not the object of God's wrath on earth.
Matthew 24:21-22 KJV
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Much love!
IF post-trib rapture, then yes. PRE-TOJT Departure would be no.
I think post-tribbers believe it is the "last (7th trumpet) sound of an angel."
Nor I, as the "Revelation of the MYSTERY, and The Body Of Christ" is unknown,
still being "Hid In God," and, not yet "Revealed To Paul," until After Acts 9.
"By definition" of: God's TWO Different Programs, Rightly Divided! ie:
{Maybe This, I hope, will be helpful to some}:
Part I
God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:
God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)
God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)
God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
Great GRACE Departure!
Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:
God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)
God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)
God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:
(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)
(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)
(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)
(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)
(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)
(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)
(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)
To be continued...
Part II
(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:
(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)
(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)
3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)
(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)
(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)
6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)
(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)
(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)
* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Edified, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ :) ↑
(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:
(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)
(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)
3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)
(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)
(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)
6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)
(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)
(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)
* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Edified, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ :) ↑
Naomi25
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- Aug 10, 2016
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I think it comes down to context in how we understand something. Paul says in Rom 11 that ‘all Israel’ will be saved. I think many look at that and think it requires every Jew to become saved. However…if we consider it against other scriptures, I’m not sure it would leave us with that expectation. For example….this ‘ingathering’ of Jewish believers will happen, supposedly, after the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’ has come in. Basically…it’s the time of the Gentiles now. And yet we know that when our ‘fullness’ has come in, the majority of Gentiles will not be believers. I think if we hold to that understanding when reading Rom 11, we see that ‘all Israel’ might certainly include many Jews…maybe more than are being ‘gathered’ presently. But it should not lead us to expect or insist upon every single Jew alive.
That’s my take, anyway…
Hi @Naomi25 I think also if we remember that the church is a heavenly people (Ephesians 1) whereas Israel has earthly blessings (some in the OT have been justified by faith also), it can give a clearer picture of how Jews, Gentiles and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32) relate to Scripture's schemes for different people.
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