The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

What's an assert?

Assert means like someone proclaiming or declaring something. If you say you assert that the grass is green, you are asserting a truth, or at least an assumed truth.

 

[Davy]

It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, then the Olivet discourse itself does not apply to end times and you might as well be a Preterist.

This question is the source of all the controversy and various eschatological positions out there. I Believe it is speaking of the rapture therefore my logical conclusion is to say we will go through the Great tribulation and the saints will face the onslaught of the beast, and be raptured before the Wrath of God. Many pretribbers say this is, but have to explain away verse 29.

I would be shocked if I just heard a pre-tribber admit the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture even exists!

 

[Davy]

Pre-tribbers pull a scripture here and a scripture there, but no where does it speak of the difference between two raptures in one teaching; one before the 7 years Great Tribulation and the rest of the seals and trumpets, etc., and the one that is said to be AT the second coming. (That last one is the one I believe is the truth and the other a myth and misapplies the second coming rapture to a pre-trib. rapture because they confuse wrath with trials.)

cc: adding @stunnedbygrace (Hi)

Not only are those pre-tribbers confused about what wrath Paul was pointing to, they don't have a clue about the warnings to not fall away to worship the coming pseudo-Christ either. For our times at the end of this world, not falling away to that "another Jesus" who comes first is one of the most important dangers for Christian brethren, because it means not staying a spiritual "chaste virgin" waiting on Jesus to come (2 Corinthians 11).

 

[Davy]

Justification in Jesus Christ . . . may be more then you may think it is.

We can't improve on it with our good behavior.

Much love!

I don't feel I properly responded to your above post there.

If you think just by believing on Lord Jesus is enough to not be deceived by the coming false Messiah, then you are pushing men's doctrine away from Scripture, and at the same time failing to admit there are specific warnings for Christ's Church to not be deceived in the last days...

Mark 13:5-6
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ'; and shall deceive many."
KJV

So just who do you think Jesus was warning in the above verse, the wicked and unbelieving?


Nor should you confuse heeding Christ's warnings and commandments as trying to use "good behavior" instead of Faith and obedience.

 

[Davy]

You keep confusing me. Is it ethnic Israel, or no? The "seed of Israel" that remains a nation before God?

Much love!

One of the studies I can tell that you have not done, is to trace God's Birthright Promises He first gave through Abraham, all the way from Abraham down to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where that Birthright still is today.

Now when I say God's Birthright, that does not strictly mean a flesh birthright, but God's Birthright that originates from Him. Why? Because Who first gave the Promise by Faith and the inheritances to Abraham? God did. So it did not originate from Abraham's flesh father. This is very, very important, because what God's Birthright contains is The Gospel of Jesus Christ, of which originated with no flesh born man, but directly from God's Own Mouth.

Ultimately, this means the chosen 'seed' of Israel, God ordained as a nation of priests in care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why prophecy about The Gospel can be found also in many of the Old Testament Books, even back in Genesis 3.

But only a remnant of the seed actually remained faithful and carried on that duty in The Gospel all the way to the establishing of Christ's Church among Gentiles. This Apostle Paul showed in Scripture like Romans 11.

Thus the idea of the literal 'seed' of Israel, is not what The Gospel is about, even as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 9 that not all born of Israel are of... Israel...

Rom 9:4-8
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

That means there cannot be any fleshy glorying from being born an Israelite. Without Faith on that "promise" even one born an Israelite cannot claim to be God's Israel.

So God promising that the nation of Israel never ending is not a promise for fleshy glorying. It is about Christ's everlasting Kingdom of those in the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would be shocked if I just heard a pre-tribber admit the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture even exists!

I agree, pretty incriminating

Best used in support in the argument "Against" the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse

Pretty hard to have a claimed great tribulation in 70AD Jerusalem as seen in Matthew 24:21, and the second coming seen in Matthew 24:29-31 immediately after this tribulation in 70AD when the Lords return is future, Big Smiles!

Of course preterist remove the literal second coming seen through symbolic allegory, claiming it's not a literal coming but a judgement upon Israel etc

 

[Truth7t7]

One of the studies I can tell that you have not done, is to trace God's Birthright Promises He first gave through Abraham, all the way from Abraham down to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where that Birthright still is today.

Now when I say God's Birthright, that does not strictly mean a flesh birthright, but God's Birthright that originates from Him. Why? Because Who first gave the Promise by Faith and the inheritances to Abraham? God did. So it did not originate from Abraham's flesh father. This is very, very important, because what God's Birthright contains is The Gospel of Jesus Christ, of which originated with no flesh born man, but directly from God's Own Mouth.

Ultimately, this means the chosen 'seed' of Israel, God ordained as a nation of priests in care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why prophecy about The Gospel can be found also in many of the Old Testament Books, even back in Genesis 3.

But only a remnant of the seed actually remained faithful and carried on that duty in The Gospel all the way to the establishing of Christ's Church among Gentiles. This Apostle Paul showed in Scripture like Romans 11.

Thus the idea of the literal 'seed' of Israel, is not what The Gospel is about, even as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 9 that not all born of Israel are of... Israel...

Rom 9:4-8
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

That means there cannot be any fleshy glorying from being born an Israelite. Without Faith on that "promise" even one born an Israelite cannot claim to be God's Israel.

So God promising that the nation of Israel never ending is not a promise for fleshy glorying. It is about Christ's everlasting Kingdom of those in the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the promises and covenant made to Abraham, the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed, it's that simple

The promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, read it again and again

Jesus Christ is the promised seed, and his children are the Church

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Two Israel's Are Seen Below)

(1) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

(2) National Ethnic Israel (Flesh)

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

They which are the children of the flesh (Ethnic Israel) these are not the children of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all (1)Israel, which are of (2)Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not only are those pre-tribbers confused about what wrath Paul was pointing to, they don't have a clue about the warnings to not fall away to worship the coming pseudo-Christ either. For our times at the end of this world, not falling away to that "another Jesus" who comes first is one of the most important dangers for Christian brethren, because it means not staying a spiritual "chaste virgin" waiting on Jesus to come (2 Corinthians 11).

I Agree 100%

The most dangerous teaching in deception is that Jesus Christ will return in a physical body, and take a physical throne in Jerusalem, starting a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Enoch111]

The most dangerous teaching in deception is that Jesus Christ will return in a physical body, and take a physical throne in Jerusalem, starting a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

What utter rubbish! It is high time you became a serious student of the Word, and not a propagandist for nonsensical teachings. Where did you learn all these foolish notions, since you do have access to a Bible?

 

[Truth7t7]

What utter rubbish! It is high time you became a serious student of the Word, and not a propagandist for nonsensical teachings. Where did you learn all these foolish notions, since you do have access to a Bible?

Jesus Christ Won't Be Found Anyplace Upon This Earth, Beware!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yes, I guess you did miss my point. If this chapter applies to Israel only, as some pretribbers do, then they cannot apply any of the Parables that follow to the rapture of the church, as they so often do (and from which they supprt their doctrine of Immanence). By denying the one they have to exclude all of it. UNLESS they say these are pointing to events in 70 ad which would then lead them to say the second coming has already occurred (preterism), or if they believe we are living in the millennial kingdom now (Amillennialism, Kingdom now) views. Where you apply this passage largely determines your eschatology, but the pretribbers pick and choose what they want out of context, saying verse 31 is the rapture, while ignoring verse 29 or explaining it away or as the video stated, trying to say it is speaking of Armageddon.

You have jut the opposite understanding of what the facts show us. The ONLY IMMENENCE can be Pre Trib. We knw the exact day of the DOTL God's Wrath, it will be 260 days after the Anti-Christ who is an E.U. President signs an agreement with Israel and THE MANY Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. We will also (they will I will not be here) see this Asteroid gurling towards the earth and understand by that time the impact is coming. All you have to do is read Lk. 21 and you can see they are very fearful of what the see coming and the roaring of the waves.

So, a pre wrath Rapture can not be imminent. Nor can a Second coming Rapture (which is nonsensical anyway, why get Raptured just to come straight back down, too funny) where the people living on this earth will know the Beast gas been around as the Beast for X number of days, thus when he's been the Beast fir 1260 days everyone will know Jesus has to show up on that exact day or else Jesus/God is a liar. The only imminence can be a pre trib rapture. The truth is you guys are horrible at solving these problems because you are trying to do stuff Go didn't call you t do, teach prophecy.

So, the will be giving in marriage and acting normal, and then when Jesus shows up tey will be caught unawares and all of the sudden they are doomed. Was the flood on the earth as soon as Noah was locked into the Ark? No. Was the Flood on the earth as soon as it started raining? No. The rains came, the flood came many days later. But God says they were doomed as soon as Noah entered the Ark, but they did not understand until the floods came. But until that very day they were acting normal, do you even get how this destroys and Rapture but a Pre Trib Rapture?

Matt. 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So, when Jesus shows up they will all be SURPRISED, just lie when the floods came and took them all away, so think here a second all of you post trib guys, ho is Jesus going to rapture people at the very end, but no one knows he's coming (this is irrational thinking at its finest), and they are drinking, marrying and acting normal until the very day Jesus shows up. No, this is off-tracked thinking, the flood is equal to God's Wrath. No one is going to be acting normal during God's Wrath, they are going to be running and hiding their faces from God as Seal #6 describes, but Seal #6 is a Prophecy not an actual event.

God took Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah, God took Noah out of the flood. God didn't make them out of the earth because their mission on earth was nit complete. The Churches mission will be complete when the Gospel has been taken unto the whole world. In Rev. 14 an Angels proclaims the Gospel unto the whole world as a testimony against those who refuse to repent. This should be meat we are eating, instead many are still on milk. It astonishes tm see Christians who can't put these things together. Its called tunnel vision, people get an idea in their heads and they can't take correction from God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I guess you did miss my point. If this chapter applies to Israel only, as some pretribbers do, then they cannot apply any of the Parables that follow to the rapture of the church, as they so often do (and from which they supprt their doctrine of Immanence). By denying the one they have to exclude all of it. UNLESS they say these are pointing to events in 70 ad which would then lead them to say the second coming has already occurred (preterism), or if they believe we are living in the millennial kingdom now (Amillennialism, Kingdom now) views. Where you apply this passage largely determines your eschatology, but the pretribbers pick and choose what they want out of context, saying verse 31 is the rapture, while ignoring verse 29 or explaining it away or as the video stated, trying to say it is speaking of Armageddon.

My personal view is that all the questions the apostles asked are answered by Jesus, and that parts are referring to 70 ad as my view is that the first five seals were opened in the first century, the fifth seal being opened with the Martyrdom of Stephen (the first martyr) and this is ongoing until this day and will be accelerated in the Great tribulation until the fulness of the gentiles is reached. With this understanding, I see that the pre tribbers are right in that the next seal to be opened is the sixth which is what Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to but also know the Great tribulation must precede this which includes the mark of the beast etc. Thus if you want to put a label on what my eschatology is, I am a pre-wrather/ mid tribber, but I Am diverse from that camp in a lot of my views. Unlike the video I believe the Great tribulation is the first half of the week, the second half being the day of the Lord and His wrath.

Oh, yes, I see it’s my fault I did not know what was being said. There are certain things people say that make me stop temporarily reading their posts and the posts that ensue with them and someone else. So I didn’t read that conversation going on with you and marks because one of the things that will make me withdraw from a side conversation in a thread are the words: “that only has to do with Israel.” I was teasing marks a week or so ago because it seemed to me he so often uses “that’s only about Israel” and in so many places that he will eventually have no Bible left for himself.

But concerning your point, I don’t understand the thinking that (where a passage of prophecy is concerned) if one part deals with certain people in a certain time then the entire passage must deal only with those certain people or time. Because prophecy does that weird jumping thing. And that weird jumping thing is a key to unlocking and understanding more of it. For instance, I was having a conversation with someone, maybe in this thread, of a passage that’s pretty clearly the new heaven and earth, but one paragraph at the very end jumps backward to the thousand years, and the glaring clue that the weird jump has happened is that at least some death still exists, which won’t be in the new earth (from my understanding.) And of course you know what happened next - oh well, you see, death does not really mean death there.

I like your “acceleration” thought. If there is a birth pain (let’s call a birth pain “war and earthquakes”), but it then stops. Later, there is another war and earthquake. Then the war and earthquakes start coming very quickly one after another.

I also think the only tenable views are pretrib and mid trib. The others I just ignore and don’t even read.
I even think pretrib and midtrib are BOTH correct. Crazy but true.

 

[Truth7t7]

the weird jump has happened is that at least some death still exists, which won’t be in the new earth (from my understanding.) And of course you know what happened next - oh well, you see, death does not really mean death there.

I like your “acceleration” thought.
I also think the only tenable views are pretrib and mid trib. The others I just ignore and don’t even read.
I even think pretrib and midtrib are BOTH correct. Crazy but true.

Isaiah 65 & Revelation 21 are exactly the same place in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation (Behold, I Make All Things New)

Same New Earth, Jerusalem, Same Eternal City Where There Is No More Weeping or Crying

Scripture clearly teaches that seen is in the New Heaven And Earth, but the "bias" in a Millennial Kingdom on this Earth wants to cancel this truth with the word "dying" in a literal interpretation

The interpretation of a child "dying" at 100 years is symbolic of eternal to the human mind, and it's not literal as suggested

Scripture interprets itself, as you clearly see below, both are parallel descriptions of the exact same place, in the Eternal New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I just hear wah, wah, wah, like Charlie Browns teacher.

 

[David H.]

You have jut the opposite understanding of what the facts show us. The ONLY IMMENENCE can be Pre Trib. We knw the exact day of the DOTL God's Wrath, it will be 260 days after the Anti-Christ who is an E.U. President signs an agreement with Israel and THE MANY Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. We will also (they will I will not be here) see this Asteroid gurling towards the earth and understand by that time the impact is coming. All you have to do is read Lk. 21 and you can see they are very fearful of what the see coming and the roaring of the waves.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So where does Jesus come from and how does He come? Which is it?
1. From Bozrah, with robes stained red from treading the wine press of wrath?
2. Suddenly, when least expected and people are partying and planning weddings and marrying?
3. Approaching on the clouds after His sign is seen in the sky, when every single eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him?

No one interested in this huh?

Do you at least see a strange repeat of when He was born? Verses seemed to say He would come from three different places - Bethlehem, Nazareth, Egypt.

Does one of the above numbers sound like pretrib, one sound like midtrib and one sound like post trib? Prophecy, once again, has Him coming from three different places.

The first time He came, it happened exactly as God said to the prophets and He came from all three at different times and on different days/timeframes.

 

[Timtofly]

Hey, at least you were gracious. I would have probably not even answered such a ridiculous question!

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If no one gets beheaded, then John will not see them at this resurrection. You all claim that the church is subjected to this time where they will either be beheaded or take the mark. That is the only two choices. Only those without the mark are overcomers. But the nitty gritty truth is they also are beheaded. That is Scripture. There is no rapture, years after the Second Coming. Paul said the rapture happens at the Second Coming. You all change the chronology of Revelation to avoid this blunt reality.

The mark is God removing one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Being beheaded is the only way not to receive the mark. That is the whole point of the gleanings after the final harvest. There is nothing to show God as in rewards for faithfulness, but one's life is sparred from eternal punishment. Of course God will resurrect and let them rule as priest on earth as their reward. But the church is glorified and rewarded in Paradise. That is the difference between the church and Israel. Many of Israel have joined the church, they left earthly Israel for Paradise, the city in Hebrews 11, from above. Why would the church want to go through the GT, to be rewarded with Israel on earth, instead of that city not on earth? The church seems to blast Israel for rejecting Jesus as Messiah, yet the church declares they will live as Israel and suffer Jacob's trouble along side of carnal Israel, instead of being glorified like Paul taught at the Second Coming.

The church has taken on for itself many parables given to carnal Israel by Jesus during the first coming of the Messiah. But the church got the favored status of always being in Christ while Israel was cut off. Now the church wants to be part of Israel on the earth, when Israel itself was always looking for that heavenly kingdom. It is almost like the carnal minded church has gotten to the place where Israel was at the first coming. They embraced tribulation instead of faith in God's plan.

It was a serious question, not a ridiculous one. When 8 billion people on earth are about to die physically in a matter of a few years, I am being serious, instead of all this petty bickering about how it is all going to play out. What is ridiculous is stating the church will go through Jacob's (Israel) trouble, instead of being glorified like Paul taught.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If no one gets beheaded, then John will not see them at this resurrection. You all claim that the church is subjected to this time where they will either be beheaded or take the mark. That is the only two choices. Only those without the mark are overcomers. But the nitty gritty truth is they also are beheaded. That is Scripture. There is no rapture, years after the Second Coming. Paul said the rapture happens at the Second Coming. You all change the chronology of Revelation to avoid this blunt reality.

The mark is God removing one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Being beheaded is the only way not to receive the mark. That is the whole point of the gleanings after the final harvest. There is nothing to show God as in rewards for faithfulness, but one's life is sparred from eternal punishment. Of course God will resurrect and let them rule as priest on earth as their reward. But the church is glorified and rewarded in Paradise. That is the difference between the church and Israel. Many of Israel have joined the church, they left earthly Israel for Paradise, the city in Hebrews 11, from above. Why would the church want to go through the GT, to be rewarded with Israel on earth, instead of that city not on earth? The church seems to blast Israel for rejecting Jesus as Messiah, yet the church declares they will live as Israel and suffer Jacob's trouble along side of carnal Israel, instead of being glorified like Paul taught at the Second Coming.

The church has taken on for itself many parables given to carnal Israel by Jesus during the first coming of the Messiah. But the church got the favored status of always being in Christ while Israel was cut off. Now the church wants to be part of Israel on the earth, when Israel itself was always looking for that heavenly kingdom. It is almost like the carnal minded church has gotten to the place where Israel was at the first coming. They embraced tribulation instead of faith in God's plan.

It was a serious question, not a ridiculous one. When 8 billion people on earth are about to die physically in a matter of a few years, I am being serious, instead of all this petty bickering about how it is all going to play out. What is ridiculous is stating the church will go through Jacob's (Israel) trouble, instead of being glorified like Paul taught.

The question you asked him was ridiculous - are you pro-beheadings? It’s a ridiculous question to ask a Christian.

 

[Timtofly]

It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, then the Olivet discourse itself does not apply to end times and you might as well be a Preterist.

This question is the source of all the controversy and various eschatological positions out there. I Believe it is speaking of the rapture therefore my logical conclusion is to say we will go through the Great tribulation and the saints will face the onslaught of the beast, and be raptured before the Wrath of God. Many pretribbers say this is, but have to explain away verse 29.

You still have not explained how the Second Coming happens before the fig tree blooms. Because that happens after the Second Coming in your chronological order.

 

[David H.]

You still have not explained how the Second Coming happens before the fig tree blooms. Because that happens after the Second Coming in your chronological order.

not at all as there is no statement saying, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" before the parables as to put them in the chronology of the Olivet discourse. The simple chronology of the Olivet discourse is the birth of a child. Birth pangs followed by labor and delivery (Great tribulation) followed by sorrow turning to Joy of birth (Rapture/second coming), which mirrors the fall feasts of the Hebrews. The 40 days of teshuvah culminate in the 10days of awe, and the day of atonement, followed by the ingathering which is the feast of the sorrow of atonement turning to joy.