The Pre-Trib Rapture

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David H.

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How do you mentally prepare yourself for 5 months of unendurable torment by some sort of supernatural "locust things" that swarm out of the abyss? To sting with torment for 5 months that you would try to die, but find you cannot?

This plague is against all but the 144,000 Israelites.

Much love!

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (Revelation 9:4)

Do You not have the seal of God on you?
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Timothy 2:19)

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

The Holy Spirit, God with us is our seal. Which means the locust will not bother us as we are supernaturally protected.
 
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Keraz

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This second group entered heaven through death. How did the first group enter?
The people seen by John in Revelation 7:1-14 are on earth. Proved by the first 3 verses setting an earthly scene.

The 144,000 are selected by Jesus; out of uncountable numbers of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who can only be Christian people. Revelation 5:9-10
Revelation 14:1-5 describes this selection. Note; that Jesus is revealed to His people; in 2 Thessalonians 1:10

The second group are as you say; the martyrs, all killed for their faith, since Stephen. Revelation 6:9-11
You left off Revelation 15:1, that shows the crying out of the souls of those martyrs, happens during the Great Tribulation. The Trumpets are over, but the 7 Bowls [plagues] come next.
THEN the wrath of God is completed.

Going back to Rev 7, verses 1-14 are the scene soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Revelation 7:15-17, prophecies and describes Eternity, after the Millennium. Proved by how then; God will wipe away every tear... Revelation 21:4
 

marks

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Marks, they entered through widespread persecution. But to go back to your first point, we dont know if the second group died. It only tells us "had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,".
Nothing in there denotes death.

Revelation 12:9-11 KJV
9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 13:15 KJV
15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Much love!
 

David H.

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@Nancy, Your comments have the following at the bottom...

I'm not a Calvinist, by choice :cool:

Someone else has this also but i cannot remember the name of that person.... did you "borrow this"? Just curious.
 
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Nancy

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@Nancy, Your comments have the following at the bottom...

I'm not a Calvinist, by choice :cool:

Someone else has this also but i cannot remember the name of that person.... did you "borrow this"? Just curious.

Hi David,
@Lifelong_sinner has this only, one difference...his does NOT have a comma :D Waiting for him to notice it. :)
 
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farouk

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I have to agree with you brother. We are NOT appointed to His wrath, but nowhere does it say we will escape "Satan's" persecution.
I no longer have a stance on the "Pre-Trib. rapture" as, what I understand can go both ways so, just being prepared EITHER WAY is all we should care about anyhow. And, will tell anyone else who teaches a "for sure" pre trib. rapture.
Would be awesome if we knew FOR SURE...but if we do not then, shouldn't we be prepared regardless?
Hi @Nancy I do think that the tribulations of Matthew 24 and John 16.33 are different.
 
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marks

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Something I consider as I consider my views, are the implications of those views. So then, were I to hold to a rapture that occurs following the trumpet plagues, for instance, this would of course mean God's children will be subject to those plagues, unless there is some divine exemption.

Some consider this to be the case with the 5th trumpet, the locust-things, bizarre creatures which come from the abyss to torment mankind for 5 months.

Revelation 9:1-12 KJV
1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7) And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8) And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9) And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12) One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

This takes us back to,

Revelation 7:1-8 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

In this passage, the "seal of God" is sealed onto 144,000 Israelites. This seal . . . don't gloss over this part . . .

An angel ascends from the east, having a seal, the seal of the Living God. Angels seal these Israelites, with the "seal of God" in their foreheads.

These are the only ones exempt from this plague.

Some make the argument that the Church will be present in this time, but will likewise be exempt, being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Is a seal brought by an angel from the east to seal the foreheads of 144,000 Israelites the same thing as believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit Himself as He lives in them? Is the Holy Spirit brought by an angel from the east?

Who is it that the Bible says will be exempt? Those with the Seal of God in their foreheads.

Could God have said, all who are not sealed with the Holy Spirit? Certainly He could have. Is that what He meant though He said something else? I'd ask the same question I always ask.

Were God wanting to say that He was going to have angels place His seal on 144,000 Israelites, and were He later wanting to say that all but those with His seal would be subject to a certain plague . . . how would He need to say it so you'd believe it?

Much love!
 
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farouk

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Something I consider as I consider my views, are the implications of those views. So then, were I to hold to a rapture that occurs following the trumpet plagues, for instance, this would of course mean God's children will be subject to those plagues, unless there is some divine exemption.

Some consider this to be the case with the 5th trumpet, the locust-things, bizarre creatures which come from the abyss to torment mankind for 5 months.

Revelation 9:1-12 KJV
1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7) And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8) And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9) And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12) One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

This takes us back to,

Revelation 7:1-8 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

In this passage, the "seal of God" is sealed onto 144,000 Israelites. This seal . . . don't gloss over this part . . .

An angel ascends from the east, having a seal, the seal of the Living God. Angels seal these Israelites, with the "seal of God" in their foreheads.

These are the only ones exempt from this plague.

Some make the argument that the Church will be present in this time, but will likewise be exempt, being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Is a seal brought by an angel from the east to seal the foreheads of 144,000 Israelites the same thing as believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit Himself as He lives in them? Is the Holy Spirit brought by an angel from the east?

Who is it that the Bible says will be exempt? Those with the Seal of God in their foreheads.

Could God have said, all who are not sealed with the Holy Spirit? Certainly He could have. Is that what He meant though He said something else? I'd ask the same question I always ask.

Were God wanting to say that He was going to have angels place His seal on 144,000 Israelites, and were He later wanting to say that all but those with His seal would be subject to a certain plague . . . how would He need to say it so you'd believe it?

Much love!
@marks We indeed are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess. 5.9); why would we be if indeed:

"The storm that bowed Thy blessed head
Is hushed for ever now,
And rest divine is ours instead,
Whilst glory crowns Thy brow."
 
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Davy

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If something has been translated from Greek to English and you want to know the different definitions of the Greek word (but you don’t speak Greek) how else will you do it but to look at a Greek dictionary? It’s like…if I, an English speaker, said to someone who didn’t know English very well, hey that’s cool! They might be confused because they’ve understood cool to mean a temperature and it was sweltering hot outside when I said it, so they might later look the word up in an English dictionary to see the different definitions to try to glean what I meant.

That's just it, you didn't really do a proper translation from the Greek, but that's only if needed to clear up any confusion, but it won't work here with Christ's answer, which is an allegory. With Christ's answer to His disciples question of "Where, Lord?", Lord Jesus gave an answer that doesn't really need a dictionary...

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

And since Lord Jesus also was recorded as saying the following in Matthew 24, it better explains how He meant it about the deceived...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

KJV

Same answer in Matthew 24:28, but with one difference. Matthew defines the "body" of Luke 17:37 is a dead carcase, in the allegory.

You see, dictionaries really don't help much with allegories, and that one by Lord Jesus is not difficult to understand.

Someone not satisfied with His answer there would tend to go to the dictionary to try and find something wrong with it.
 

Davy

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Some people have the view that the rapture of the church will be for those who have a certain level of holiness and/or righteousness in their thinking and behavior so as to be considered "worthy" to be taken in the Rapture, while those who fall below whatever their particular standard is are "left behind", to be "purified" from such things as rendered them "unworthy" by being given over to the beast in the great tribulation.

So some born again Christians are taken, and some born again Christians are left to be fixed by the trib.

I do not hold to this view. I believe when we are reborn, it is so by our being immersed into Christ, and we are, simply, in Christ. When this catching away comes, it will be for those who are "in Christ", regardless of our behavioral state at the time.

I've heard it put in terms of, "only those abiding in Christ", or other ways. I find that concept wholly contrary to the Gospel of grace and reconciliation in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

I understand what you're saying, but the reality for our times, for the end of this world, there's a certain specific matter we are forewarned about that can cause us to fall away, IF... we allow it. And that falling away can separate us from Jesus when He comes, like the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 who also believed on Him but didn't carry spare vessels of the Oil with them to wait.

2 Thess 2:1-4
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


That danger Paul warned is in two parts, and they are linked. The danger is about falling away to worship that coming false Messiah, that "man of sin" who will work great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world. Now Revelation 13:4-8 reveals that false one will deceive everyone... except those who's names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So how many is that? And you can be sure a lot of them are going to be deceived brethren like the five foolish virgins category. Those brethren today that don't know this from Scripture, and aren't being taught about it, are already prepared to be deceived when that false one arrives in Jerusalem and the whole world worships him in place of Christ.

Furthermore, the Left-behind theory is from men, not God's Word. It's because Lord Jesus showed at the end of Luke 17 that the 1st ones 'taken' are to wheresover the fowls are eating on a dead carcase. The parallel Scripture to Christ's answer there is Matthew 24:28 as I have shown in my previous post. Thusly, those in Christ WANT to be left behind, simply because Jesus taught that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation (per Matthew 24:29-31).

So I stand in Christ Jesus. Won't you stand with me, and not be deceived by men, instead listening to Jesus in His Word?
 
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marks

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I understand what you're saying, but the reality for our times, for the end of this world, there's a certain specific matter we are forewarned about that can cause us to fall away, IF... we allow it.
Justification in Jesus Christ . . . may be more then you may think it is.

We can't improve on it with our good behavior.

Much love!
 

stunnedbygrace

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That's just it, you didn't really do a proper translation from the Greek, but that's only if needed to clear up any confusion, but it won't work here with Christ's answer, which is an allegory. With Christ's answer to His disciples question of "Where, Lord?", Lord Jesus gave an answer that doesn't really need a dictionary...

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

And since Lord Jesus also was recorded as saying the following in Matthew 24, it better explains how He meant it about the deceived...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

KJV

Same answer in Matthew 24:28, but with one difference. Matthew defines the "body" of Luke 17:37 is a dead carcase, in the allegory.

You see, dictionaries really don't help much with allegories, and that one by Lord Jesus is not difficult to understand.

Someone not satisfied with His answer there would tend to go to the dictionary to try and find something wrong with it.

They asked Him where the one taken would be taken to. He didn’t really answer their question. But I’m guessing you think…the one taken would be taken somewhere and killed and fed to vultures…?
 

marks

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Those brethren today that don't know this from Scripture, and aren't being taught about it, are already prepared to be deceived when that false one arrives in Jerusalem and the whole world worships him in place of Christ.
Regardless of our various eschatological views, I have much greater confidence in the Holy Spirit than this.

Much love!
 

Davy

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So here's a question for you . . . how does the gathering of the church relate to the gathering of Israel to the promised land?

Much love!

Study Ezekiel 44, and don't be put off by mention of sacrifices there. Lord Jesus is the one Perfect Sacrifice for sin, for one and all time. If you look closely, only the Zadok (means the The Just) will be allowed to approach Christ and serve Him at His table. Those of Israel that fell away won't be allowed near Him. This is linked to His telling those who fall away to get away from Him, like here...

Matt 25:11-12
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
KJV

Luke 13:25-29
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us"; and he shall answer and say unto you, "I know you not whence ye are":
26 Then shall ye begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."
27 But he shall say, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Don't think that just about the unbelieving Jews. It will be about anyone that falls away to worship the pseudo-Christ that comes first, thinking he is Jesus.

Ezekiel 44 reveals for the priests of Israel that fell away when Israel fell away, they will still have charge of the menial duties of the future temple, but still won't be allowed to come near to Jesus.

So the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches Israel is restored on earth for the Jews when Jesus comes while His pre-trib raptured Church remains in Heaven with Him to reign, is just a theory from men. It is not written that Christ's Church will live off this earth at His coming; just the opposite. We're even shown the beloved city after His coming is on earth, and associated with the Rev.20 phrase "camp of the saints".
 

marks

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Study Ezekiel 44, and don't be put off by mention of sacrifices there. Lord Jesus is the one Perfect Sacrifice for sin, for one and all time. If you look closely, only the Zadok (means the The Just) will be allowed to approach Christ and serve Him at His table. Those of Israel that fell away won't be allowed near Him. This is linked to His telling those who fall away to get away from Him, like here...

Matt 25:11-12
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
KJV

Luke 13:25-29
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us"; and he shall answer and say unto you, "I know you not whence ye are":
26 Then shall ye begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."
27 But he shall say, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Don't think that just about the unbelieving Jews. It will be about anyone that falls away to worship the pseudo-Christ that comes first, thinking he is Jesus.

Ezekiel 44 reveals for the priests of Israel that fell away when Israel fell away, they will still have charge of the menial duties of the future temple, but still won't be allowed to come near to Jesus.

So the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches Israel is restored on earth for the Jews when Jesus comes while His pre-trib raptured Church remains in Heaven with Him to reign, is just a theory from men. It is not written that Christ's Church will live off this earth at His coming; just the opposite. We're even shown the beloved city after His coming is on earth, and associated with the Rev.20 phrase "camp of the saints".

I don't understand your answer.

Is the gathering of the church and the gathering of Isreal the same in your eyes? Is the church gathered to Jesus when He appears ln the sky, and Israel then gathered by the angels after that? Something else? Does my question make sense?

Much love!
 

Davy

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How would that happen?

How does my thinking the rapture will be pre-trib, how exactly does that expose me to the risk you are talking about?

Much love!

You mean you didn't understand Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the danger of falling away to the coming pseudo-Christ? That specifically is what Jesus was warning us about in Matthew 24:23-26.

So you're going to have to disregard those men if they are telling you those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures don't apply to Christ's Church, for those men have fallen in a ditch. So why fall with them when they want to deny Christ's warnings to His servants? (In case you're not sure what I'm referring to with my last couple of statements, the Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Christ's Olivet discourse is not meant for His Church.)
 

marks

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You mean you didn't understand Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the danger of falling away to the coming pseudo-Christ? That specifically is what Jesus was warning us about in Matthew 24:23-26.

So you're going to have to disregard those men if they are telling you those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures don't apply to Christ's Church, for those men have fallen in a ditch. So why fall with them when they want to deny Christ's warnings to His servants? (In case you're not sure what I'm referring to with my last couple of statements, the Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Christ's Olivet discourse is not meant for His Church.)
You are turning on me instead of answering my question. Let's take a break.

Much love!
 
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